<instructions>Your goal is to analyze the following comment and estimate how highly it will be upvoted by the Hacker News community.</instructions><comment><author>beloch</author><text>C2 really is the monster in the room.  The rowing machine market is less diverse than exercise bikes, and C2 sits atop the mountain.  Anyone who rows seriously (and many who don&amp;#x27;t) have used a C2 at some point.&lt;p&gt;The Aviron Impact Series (an odd name for a low-impact exercise machine) rower is $2149, while a C2 Model D is $900.&lt;p&gt;The Model D has been in gyms for decades.  Literally, your local gym may have one that&amp;#x27;s decades old and still in perfect shape.  Olympic rowers train on them.  A significant portion of people who row already have one and aren&amp;#x27;t going to need a replacement any time soon.&lt;p&gt;The video on Aviron&amp;#x27;s website focuses heavily on the software, but the rower itself does not look like it should cost twice what a C2 does.  The belt is plastic.  The rail&amp;#x27;s finish looks like it will wear off.  The rear support looks less sturdy and stable than that of a C2.  The ramrod straight handle looks blister-inducing.  The whole thing looks very plastic.  Note that I&amp;#x27;m not saying the rower isn&amp;#x27;t worth the money. The build quality and ergonomics might be excellent. It just doesn&amp;#x27;t &lt;i&gt;look&lt;/i&gt; like a rower that&amp;#x27;s worth 2.39 C2&amp;#x27;s.&lt;p&gt;The display is a big improvement over anything C2 sells, but $1249 can buy a pretty nice display and a basic computer to run it, or a big ol&amp;#x27; tablet and a mount.&lt;p&gt;Peloton probably had an easier time entering the exercise bike market because there wasn&amp;#x27;t any one competitor as dominant as C2 is.  However, they do now offer an app that lets people use their software and classes without buying a Peloton bike.&lt;p&gt;The question for Aviron is, can they sell their rower without their software being exclusive to it?  They would undoubtedly find more users if they supported other rowers, C2 specifically, but would the extra monthly memberships bring in more than sales from their rower if the software remained exclusive to it?</text><parent_chain><item><author>cycomanic</author><text>Great idea! I used to be a competitive rower. When I was working at a gym during my studies I was actually talking with the managers of running some rowing classes (similar to spinning).&lt;p&gt;I think the main challenge with rowing machines (and the reason why we didn&amp;#x27;t do rowing classes), is that for beginners there is essentially only hard or off, i.e. it is difficult to adjust to different exhaustion levels. That leads to high frustration levels and is the reason why one rarely sees someone at the gym using the machines more than 5mins (and those that do are often former rowers).
So HIT is probably the right way to go.&lt;p&gt;The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every other machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those things sturdy enough.&lt;p&gt;All the best, I hope you succeed!</text></item></parent_chain></comment><story><title>Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing</title><text>Hey HN! I’m Andy, founder of Aviron (&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;avironactive.com&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;avironactive.com&amp;#x2F;&lt;/a&gt;). We make a high-intensity version of Peloton for rowing, with competitive games, live races and strength programs. Our content puts a focus on HIIT (high intensity interval training) due to its physical and cognitive benefits.&lt;p&gt;I feel like sometimes this pisses the hardcore rowers off but I’m not a rower, I’m a tech guy. I also think fitness is important and have been working out all of my adult life. Before Aviron, I worked full time and long hours so I did a lot of my thinking during late night gym sessions. Like many people I avoided the rower because not only did I not enjoy cardio but damn that machine was hard and boring. There was a moment at some point in 2016 when I realized I could do something with this. The connected fitness market in the US at that time was small but growing rapidly.&lt;p&gt;Aviron is a rowing machine because it’s the most efficient and effective workout you can have in a short amount of time on one machine. The rowing motion is low impact, engages 85% of muscles, is very difficult and as a result can also be boring. This makes the rowing machine an ideal ‘candidate’ to pair with the gaming-inspired, competitive content I began thinking about in 2016.&lt;p&gt;The research was telling me there was a definite potential market niche I could fill but what I didn&amp;#x27;t know was that no manufacturer would speak to me. I probably called and emailed 50 manufacturers. I eventually kickstarted a few conversations and finally a relationship, by flying to Taiwan, connecting with a local who could translate, and knocking on doors in person. It sounds reasonable in hindsight but the process to finalizing a production contract start to finish took me a full year. A year of trying to understand the manufacturing landscape, developing relationships and convincing potential suppliers that I would eventually be worth their time.&lt;p&gt;Ultimately my key takeaway is that Taiwanese manufacturing relationships are just that - relationships. Manufacturers are looking for long-term trusting partnerships and they are much less motivated by money than my initial assumption. I’m reminded of this constantly - this month alone I have received emails re: product delays twice - and I stupidly tried to throw money at the problem, in the process offending the Taiwan team by implying they would work harder if money was on the table.&lt;p&gt;Finding and building a solid relationship with a production partner was challenging but I would give it a 7&amp;#x2F;10 relative to the hurdles that came later. The manufacturer had no experience or interest in getting the machine to work along with our custom android touchscreen. As much as I see myself as a “tech guy”, I don’t have an engineering degree. My dad does and so does my brother but I went the business degree route. Long story short, figuring out the details of making these two pieces work together was a nightmare. Again, in hindsight, it’s kind of cool - I understand my machine inside and out; I’m confident I could take it apart down to the screws and put it back together. I can also work comfortably with an oscilloscope and understand how most of the components work on a typical fitness equipment circuit board - there was a lot of circuit board soldering trial and error at one point.&lt;p&gt;I knew that I was taking on a lot with a software and hardware venture but what nobody tells you is how many miles you’re going to drive and fly when you’re taking on hardware. During our slow tip-toe pivot from B2B to B2C sales, we discovered home customers would find 10x the problems a gym would. There was a week in 2019 I drove to a customer’s home 6 hours away multiple times a week for nearly a month. Each trip I thought we had found the solution; the ride back was crushing. This was one of many problems we faced.&lt;p&gt;I’m happy to be able to say the bugs are mostly worked out! Our customers navigate a 22” touchscreen to browse 250ish content options - like my favorite and the first game we ever developed - Last Hope, an end-of-the-world inspired game where you’re being chased by zombies. As your row to escape the Ai will benchmark your fitness output and adjust the zombies’ speed to maintain a challenging pace for your fitness level.&lt;p&gt;The content for Aviron was developed with strength training and High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) in mind. For example, one of our 6 workouts categories is “Pros vs. Joes”, a program that allows you to compete against pre-recorded Olympians and professional athletes in a race.&lt;p&gt;Our customers are fitness enthusiasts who don’t enjoy long cardio workouts and crave the competitive and challenging pace of activities like CrossFit and F45, at home - especially throughout Covid. HIIT workouts tend to be shorter, have been proven to improve cognitive ability and help slow the aging process via preservation of DNA.&lt;p&gt;To me, the dual cognitive and physical benefits were really key. I began to work out in my teens, physically I felt better and my self esteem improved. Cognitively, I went from dealing with undiagnosed ADHD and struggling my way through school to slowly noticing an improvement. People told me I was “growing out of” ADHD - which is probably partially true - but something clicked when I was researching fitness programming for Aviron. Learning about HIIT and it’s (data proven) benefits, I started to realize that my commitment to consistent and challenging physical fitness had likely paid a large part in my “growing out it” as well.&lt;p&gt;Currently, we have bootstrapped Aviron to a good place; we’ve sold nearly a thousand rowers to gyms, hotels, schools and even Nike headquarters as well as homes. Or churn rate is &amp;lt;1% and our customers are telling us they’re happy. And they’re paying their membership every month so we believe them. :)&lt;p&gt;We are continually working on Aviron to improve the software, content and customer experience so if you have a chance please check us out and let me know what you think. I’m excited to hear from the community. I’ll be hanging out in the comments all day.</text></story>
<instructions>Your goal is to analyze the following comment and estimate how highly it will be upvoted by the Hacker News community.</instructions><comment><author>DennisP</author><text>Why is it hard or off as a beginner? I had the same issue at first but now I can ease off and do a straight 30 minutes. I assumed it was mental but it sounds like it&amp;#x27;s technique.&lt;p&gt;Fwiw I have the Oartec DX, and it&amp;#x27;s very solidly built.&lt;p&gt;On dynamic rowers like this, the seat stays pretty much in one place and it&amp;#x27;s mainly the footpad that moves. Supposedly it puts less stress on the lower back and knees, and more closely simulates rowing on the water, so some elite rowing teams use them.&lt;p&gt;I don&amp;#x27;t know about all that but I have a knee that gives me trouble sometimes, and with the Oartec I can put that foot on the ground and row with the other leg.&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;oartec.com&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;oartec.com&amp;#x2F;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.rp3rowing.com&amp;#x2F;products&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.rp3rowing.com&amp;#x2F;products&amp;#x2F;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;Concept2 makes one now too:&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.concept2.com&amp;#x2F;indoor-rowers&amp;#x2F;dynamic&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.concept2.com&amp;#x2F;indoor-rowers&amp;#x2F;dynamic&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;(I guess a drawback is it doesn&amp;#x27;t really lend itself to a nice big screen like OP&amp;#x27;s project.)</text><parent_chain><item><author>cycomanic</author><text>Great idea! I used to be a competitive rower. When I was working at a gym during my studies I was actually talking with the managers of running some rowing classes (similar to spinning).&lt;p&gt;I think the main challenge with rowing machines (and the reason why we didn&amp;#x27;t do rowing classes), is that for beginners there is essentially only hard or off, i.e. it is difficult to adjust to different exhaustion levels. That leads to high frustration levels and is the reason why one rarely sees someone at the gym using the machines more than 5mins (and those that do are often former rowers).
So HIT is probably the right way to go.&lt;p&gt;The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every other machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those things sturdy enough.&lt;p&gt;All the best, I hope you succeed!</text></item></parent_chain></comment><story><title>Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing</title><text>Hey HN! I’m Andy, founder of Aviron (&lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;avironactive.com&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;avironactive.com&amp;#x2F;&lt;/a&gt;). We make a high-intensity version of Peloton for rowing, with competitive games, live races and strength programs. Our content puts a focus on HIIT (high intensity interval training) due to its physical and cognitive benefits.&lt;p&gt;I feel like sometimes this pisses the hardcore rowers off but I’m not a rower, I’m a tech guy. I also think fitness is important and have been working out all of my adult life. Before Aviron, I worked full time and long hours so I did a lot of my thinking during late night gym sessions. Like many people I avoided the rower because not only did I not enjoy cardio but damn that machine was hard and boring. There was a moment at some point in 2016 when I realized I could do something with this. The connected fitness market in the US at that time was small but growing rapidly.&lt;p&gt;Aviron is a rowing machine because it’s the most efficient and effective workout you can have in a short amount of time on one machine. The rowing motion is low impact, engages 85% of muscles, is very difficult and as a result can also be boring. This makes the rowing machine an ideal ‘candidate’ to pair with the gaming-inspired, competitive content I began thinking about in 2016.&lt;p&gt;The research was telling me there was a definite potential market niche I could fill but what I didn&amp;#x27;t know was that no manufacturer would speak to me. I probably called and emailed 50 manufacturers. I eventually kickstarted a few conversations and finally a relationship, by flying to Taiwan, connecting with a local who could translate, and knocking on doors in person. It sounds reasonable in hindsight but the process to finalizing a production contract start to finish took me a full year. A year of trying to understand the manufacturing landscape, developing relationships and convincing potential suppliers that I would eventually be worth their time.&lt;p&gt;Ultimately my key takeaway is that Taiwanese manufacturing relationships are just that - relationships. Manufacturers are looking for long-term trusting partnerships and they are much less motivated by money than my initial assumption. I’m reminded of this constantly - this month alone I have received emails re: product delays twice - and I stupidly tried to throw money at the problem, in the process offending the Taiwan team by implying they would work harder if money was on the table.&lt;p&gt;Finding and building a solid relationship with a production partner was challenging but I would give it a 7&amp;#x2F;10 relative to the hurdles that came later. The manufacturer had no experience or interest in getting the machine to work along with our custom android touchscreen. As much as I see myself as a “tech guy”, I don’t have an engineering degree. My dad does and so does my brother but I went the business degree route. Long story short, figuring out the details of making these two pieces work together was a nightmare. Again, in hindsight, it’s kind of cool - I understand my machine inside and out; I’m confident I could take it apart down to the screws and put it back together. I can also work comfortably with an oscilloscope and understand how most of the components work on a typical fitness equipment circuit board - there was a lot of circuit board soldering trial and error at one point.&lt;p&gt;I knew that I was taking on a lot with a software and hardware venture but what nobody tells you is how many miles you’re going to drive and fly when you’re taking on hardware. During our slow tip-toe pivot from B2B to B2C sales, we discovered home customers would find 10x the problems a gym would. There was a week in 2019 I drove to a customer’s home 6 hours away multiple times a week for nearly a month. Each trip I thought we had found the solution; the ride back was crushing. This was one of many problems we faced.&lt;p&gt;I’m happy to be able to say the bugs are mostly worked out! Our customers navigate a 22” touchscreen to browse 250ish content options - like my favorite and the first game we ever developed - Last Hope, an end-of-the-world inspired game where you’re being chased by zombies. As your row to escape the Ai will benchmark your fitness output and adjust the zombies’ speed to maintain a challenging pace for your fitness level.&lt;p&gt;The content for Aviron was developed with strength training and High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) in mind. For example, one of our 6 workouts categories is “Pros vs. Joes”, a program that allows you to compete against pre-recorded Olympians and professional athletes in a race.&lt;p&gt;Our customers are fitness enthusiasts who don’t enjoy long cardio workouts and crave the competitive and challenging pace of activities like CrossFit and F45, at home - especially throughout Covid. HIIT workouts tend to be shorter, have been proven to improve cognitive ability and help slow the aging process via preservation of DNA.&lt;p&gt;To me, the dual cognitive and physical benefits were really key. I began to work out in my teens, physically I felt better and my self esteem improved. Cognitively, I went from dealing with undiagnosed ADHD and struggling my way through school to slowly noticing an improvement. People told me I was “growing out of” ADHD - which is probably partially true - but something clicked when I was researching fitness programming for Aviron. Learning about HIIT and it’s (data proven) benefits, I started to realize that my commitment to consistent and challenging physical fitness had likely paid a large part in my “growing out it” as well.&lt;p&gt;Currently, we have bootstrapped Aviron to a good place; we’ve sold nearly a thousand rowers to gyms, hotels, schools and even Nike headquarters as well as homes. Or churn rate is &amp;lt;1% and our customers are telling us they’re happy. And they’re paying their membership every month so we believe them. :)&lt;p&gt;We are continually working on Aviron to improve the software, content and customer experience so if you have a chance please check us out and let me know what you think. I’m excited to hear from the community. I’ll be hanging out in the comments all day.</text></story>