<instructions>Your goal is to analyze the following comment and estimate how highly it will be upvoted by the Hacker News community.</instructions><comment><author>Zelphyr</author><text>&amp;gt; Those of us who really need to just &amp;quot;get things done&amp;quot; might be better suited by a mature, well-documented framework, but does one actually exist?&lt;p&gt;No.&lt;p&gt;Frameworks are all the same in that they are great at getting you to about 80% of what you need REALLY fast.  The next 10% takes some investigation but its doable.&lt;p&gt;But that last 10%.  Its like pulling teeth.  You&amp;#x27;re working for the framework rather than it working for you.  In my experience, all of the time gains you realize from using a framework early on are lost (and then some) trying to get it to do that last 10% that you need.&lt;p&gt;Ultimately I&amp;#x27;ve found that using vanilla Javascript offers everything I need to just &amp;quot;get things done&amp;quot; and complete a project successfully.  Sure, I might not be able to get something out the door in a day.  But at the end of the project I&amp;#x27;ve delivered clean, maintainable code on time.  And anyone who knows Javascript will be able to read it.&lt;p&gt;Now, lest you think I&amp;#x27;m a complete framework hater; they have their place.  They&amp;#x27;re great at prototyping, for example.  But never again will I build an entire project on one.  I have little interest in being a glorified glue stick, piecing framework code together.  How boring.&lt;p&gt;I should add that I make heavy use of libraries like jQuery and Underscore.  They&amp;#x27;re libraries, not frameworks.  Take what you need with them yet still reasonably lightweight.  Frameworks are bloated, tightly-coupled, poorly documented monstrosities in my opinion.</text><parent_chain><item><author>psychometry</author><text>Is there a Javascript MVC framework that actually has good documentation, guides, and code samples? I&amp;#x27;ve been working with Ember.js, but it&amp;#x27;s incredibly frustrating trying to learn a framework whose documentation is incomplete.&lt;p&gt;The other problem I&amp;#x27;ve found is that docs, tutorials, and Stack Overflow posts that are even six months old are often completely useless when troubleshooting bugs in Ember.js or even learning its basic features.&lt;p&gt;It seems Angular suffers from the same complaints I have about Ember.js. Those of us who really need to just &amp;quot;get things done&amp;quot; might be better suited by a mature, well-documented framework, but does one actually exist?</text></item><item><author>gkoberger</author><text>Documentation is by far the worst part of Angular. I spent 90% of my time Googling and 10% writing code. (Hey, maybe that&amp;#x27;s Google&amp;#x27;s plan -- ramp up traffic to search. Synergy!)&lt;p&gt;AngularUI is confusing, mostly undocumented and often behind Angular. Splitting ngRoute&amp;#x2F;ngAnimate into their own files is an odd choice, although I assume the former is so they can replace it with the superior ui-router. Which also is weird. Like jQuery, it seems like the UI portion is just off on their own doing what they want.&lt;p&gt;Google has the chance to build &lt;i&gt;the&lt;/i&gt; new framework that will run the web in 2-3 years. Much like Rails a few years ago. Angular is an amazing framework. It seems like they just don&amp;#x27;t care.&lt;p&gt;Angular needs someone versed in developer usability to take control of the public facing Angular stuff and give it a complete overhaul. Right now, it&amp;#x27;s the result of hundreds of people haphazardly making changes.</text></item></parent_chain></comment><story><title>Things that suck in AngularJS</title><url>http://lhorie.blogspot.ca/2013/09/things-that-suck-in-angularjs.html</url></story>
<instructions>Your goal is to analyze the following comment and estimate how highly it will be upvoted by the Hacker News community.</instructions><comment><author>famo</author><text>I started with Ember about a year ago and the getting started docs were pretty terrible. It took a lot of experimentation and frustration before I was comfortable developing with it. Eventually I became familiar with the framework and the API docs are quite in-depth, not really great for a beginner though. After about four Ember projects I can now prototype a large app (using something like Bootstrap) in a day or so, so I feel that pain at the start was worth it. Back at the time though I was tearing my hair out, especially over router changes. The changes improved things by an order of magnitude though. I trust the Ember team, I&amp;#x27;m happy now, the start could have been easier.</text><parent_chain><item><author>psychometry</author><text>Is there a Javascript MVC framework that actually has good documentation, guides, and code samples? I&amp;#x27;ve been working with Ember.js, but it&amp;#x27;s incredibly frustrating trying to learn a framework whose documentation is incomplete.&lt;p&gt;The other problem I&amp;#x27;ve found is that docs, tutorials, and Stack Overflow posts that are even six months old are often completely useless when troubleshooting bugs in Ember.js or even learning its basic features.&lt;p&gt;It seems Angular suffers from the same complaints I have about Ember.js. Those of us who really need to just &amp;quot;get things done&amp;quot; might be better suited by a mature, well-documented framework, but does one actually exist?</text></item><item><author>gkoberger</author><text>Documentation is by far the worst part of Angular. I spent 90% of my time Googling and 10% writing code. (Hey, maybe that&amp;#x27;s Google&amp;#x27;s plan -- ramp up traffic to search. Synergy!)&lt;p&gt;AngularUI is confusing, mostly undocumented and often behind Angular. Splitting ngRoute&amp;#x2F;ngAnimate into their own files is an odd choice, although I assume the former is so they can replace it with the superior ui-router. Which also is weird. Like jQuery, it seems like the UI portion is just off on their own doing what they want.&lt;p&gt;Google has the chance to build &lt;i&gt;the&lt;/i&gt; new framework that will run the web in 2-3 years. Much like Rails a few years ago. Angular is an amazing framework. It seems like they just don&amp;#x27;t care.&lt;p&gt;Angular needs someone versed in developer usability to take control of the public facing Angular stuff and give it a complete overhaul. Right now, it&amp;#x27;s the result of hundreds of people haphazardly making changes.</text></item></parent_chain></comment><story><title>Things that suck in AngularJS</title><url>http://lhorie.blogspot.ca/2013/09/things-that-suck-in-angularjs.html</url></story>