<instructions>Your goal is to analyze the following comment and estimate how highly it will be upvoted by the Hacker News community.</instructions><comment><author>Sven7</author><text>I don&amp;#x27;t know what dreamland you live in, but everyone knows what happened during the 2008 meltdown what laws have been created?&lt;p&gt;Everyone knows how the invasion of Iraq was a complete mistake. Has someone gone to jail?&lt;p&gt;The public is not going to shutdown anything they are wholly complicit in and benefit from. Which is why empires eventually fall.</text><parent_chain><item><author>ap22213</author><text>You&amp;#x27;re really low-balling.&lt;p&gt;Work in the greater D.C. area.  Within a 150-200 mile radius, there are literally tens of thousands of developers working directly on surveillance.  Probably even more.  How do I know this?  From random sampling.  Go to any tech event, talk to any program manager at any government contractor.  The work and money is in surveillance.&lt;p&gt;And, that&amp;#x27;s just government surveillance.  All that tech is then spilling over into corporate surveillance.  Location and behavioral tracking is big money.  How do I know this? Because, sadly, that&amp;#x27;s how I have to make my money.  The problem is that there&amp;#x27;s always another grunt like me willing to create the systems that enable this.&lt;p&gt;The solution: Use all of this surveillance tech and data to expose all of the VIPs.  Publicly post where they are and where they&amp;#x27;ve been, who they&amp;#x27;ve been with, what they read, and what they buy.  You do this and laws will be created pretty quickly.</text></item><item><author>jerf</author><text>&amp;quot;Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethics, constraints or consequences.&amp;quot;&lt;p&gt;No, we don&amp;#x27;t.&lt;p&gt;We have probably a few hundred doing hard-core surveillance. We have another few thousand functioning as enablers by making social media and ad networks really attractive. We have a whole lot of &lt;i&gt;non-&lt;/i&gt;engineers insisting on placing ads and tracking on their websites.&lt;p&gt;And then there&amp;#x27;s the mass bulk of software engineers that have nothing to do with it, and nothing they do will stop it.&lt;p&gt;50% of doctors decide to stop doing something, and it gets noticed. 99% of software engineers decide to take enormously strong stands against surveillance even at great personnel cost, and surveillance continues on as if nothing happened, except maybe those who work on it get paid a bit more to make up for decreased supply.&lt;p&gt;It may, in that weird 20th&amp;#x2F;21st century fashionable-self-loathing way, feel really good to blame the group you&amp;#x27;re a part of, but basically what you&amp;#x27;re proposing won&amp;#x27;t do anything at all. You&amp;#x27;re imputing to &amp;quot;software engineers&amp;quot; in general abilities they don&amp;#x27;t collectively have. You&amp;#x27;ve got to attack it at the demand level, you will &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; be able to control the supply. This also matters because if you waste your energy with that approach, you might decide you&amp;#x27;ve done something about the problem and stop trying when in fact you&amp;#x27;ve done nothing.</text></item><item><author>tobbyb</author><text>I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance.&lt;p&gt;We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically.&lt;p&gt;Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethics, constraints or consequences.&lt;p&gt;What we have instead are anachronistic discussions on things like privacy that seem oddly disconnected from 300 years of accumulated wisdom on surveillance, privacy, free speech and liberty to pretend the obvious is not obvious, and delay the need for ethical behavior and introspection. And this from a group of people who have routinely postured extreme zeal for freedom and liberty since the early 90&amp;#x27;s and produced one Snowden.&lt;p&gt;That&amp;#x27;s a pretty bad record by any standards, and indicates the urgent need for self reflection, industry bodies, standards, whistle blower protection and for a wider discussion to insert context, ethics and history into the debate.&lt;p&gt;The point about privacy is not you, no one cares what you are doing so an individual perspective here has zero value, but building the infrastructure and ability to track what everyone in a society is doing, and preempt any threat to entrenched interests and status quo. An individual may not need or value privacy but a healthy society definitely needs it.</text></item></parent_chain></comment><story><title>Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant</title><url>http://robindoherty.com/2016/01/06/nothing-to-hide.html</url></story>
<instructions>Your goal is to analyze the following comment and estimate how highly it will be upvoted by the Hacker News community.</instructions><comment><author>mordocai</author><text>&amp;gt; The solution: Use all of this surveillance tech and data to expose all of the VIPs. Publicly post where they are and where they&amp;#x27;ve been, who they&amp;#x27;ve been with, what they read, and what they buy. You do this and laws will be created pretty quickly.&lt;p&gt;This has happened in the past and the reaction from the individual people has been to 180 completely on their opinion of surveillance (there was a recent post with sources, but I don&amp;#x27;t have it handy). This could work.</text><parent_chain><item><author>ap22213</author><text>You&amp;#x27;re really low-balling.&lt;p&gt;Work in the greater D.C. area.  Within a 150-200 mile radius, there are literally tens of thousands of developers working directly on surveillance.  Probably even more.  How do I know this?  From random sampling.  Go to any tech event, talk to any program manager at any government contractor.  The work and money is in surveillance.&lt;p&gt;And, that&amp;#x27;s just government surveillance.  All that tech is then spilling over into corporate surveillance.  Location and behavioral tracking is big money.  How do I know this? Because, sadly, that&amp;#x27;s how I have to make my money.  The problem is that there&amp;#x27;s always another grunt like me willing to create the systems that enable this.&lt;p&gt;The solution: Use all of this surveillance tech and data to expose all of the VIPs.  Publicly post where they are and where they&amp;#x27;ve been, who they&amp;#x27;ve been with, what they read, and what they buy.  You do this and laws will be created pretty quickly.</text></item><item><author>jerf</author><text>&amp;quot;Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethics, constraints or consequences.&amp;quot;&lt;p&gt;No, we don&amp;#x27;t.&lt;p&gt;We have probably a few hundred doing hard-core surveillance. We have another few thousand functioning as enablers by making social media and ad networks really attractive. We have a whole lot of &lt;i&gt;non-&lt;/i&gt;engineers insisting on placing ads and tracking on their websites.&lt;p&gt;And then there&amp;#x27;s the mass bulk of software engineers that have nothing to do with it, and nothing they do will stop it.&lt;p&gt;50% of doctors decide to stop doing something, and it gets noticed. 99% of software engineers decide to take enormously strong stands against surveillance even at great personnel cost, and surveillance continues on as if nothing happened, except maybe those who work on it get paid a bit more to make up for decreased supply.&lt;p&gt;It may, in that weird 20th&amp;#x2F;21st century fashionable-self-loathing way, feel really good to blame the group you&amp;#x27;re a part of, but basically what you&amp;#x27;re proposing won&amp;#x27;t do anything at all. You&amp;#x27;re imputing to &amp;quot;software engineers&amp;quot; in general abilities they don&amp;#x27;t collectively have. You&amp;#x27;ve got to attack it at the demand level, you will &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; be able to control the supply. This also matters because if you waste your energy with that approach, you might decide you&amp;#x27;ve done something about the problem and stop trying when in fact you&amp;#x27;ve done nothing.</text></item><item><author>tobbyb</author><text>I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance.&lt;p&gt;We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically.&lt;p&gt;Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethics, constraints or consequences.&lt;p&gt;What we have instead are anachronistic discussions on things like privacy that seem oddly disconnected from 300 years of accumulated wisdom on surveillance, privacy, free speech and liberty to pretend the obvious is not obvious, and delay the need for ethical behavior and introspection. And this from a group of people who have routinely postured extreme zeal for freedom and liberty since the early 90&amp;#x27;s and produced one Snowden.&lt;p&gt;That&amp;#x27;s a pretty bad record by any standards, and indicates the urgent need for self reflection, industry bodies, standards, whistle blower protection and for a wider discussion to insert context, ethics and history into the debate.&lt;p&gt;The point about privacy is not you, no one cares what you are doing so an individual perspective here has zero value, but building the infrastructure and ability to track what everyone in a society is doing, and preempt any threat to entrenched interests and status quo. An individual may not need or value privacy but a healthy society definitely needs it.</text></item></parent_chain></comment><story><title>Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant</title><url>http://robindoherty.com/2016/01/06/nothing-to-hide.html</url></story>