<instructions>Your goal is to analyze the following comment and estimate how highly it will be upvoted by the Hacker News community.</instructions><comment><author>mrighele</author><text>This happens because unions in the US are fragmented. In countries with bigger unions (e.g. France, Italy) those unions act at national level. This means that moving the assembly line from Seattle to South Carolina would simply move the strikes from one place to another. 
The underlying idea is that the behavior of the S.C. is just a race to the bottom and in the same way that those jobs arrived they will be gone one day once another plant accept even worse wages.&lt;p&gt;The downside is that if the union&amp;#x27;s approach is too strict, those jobs may simply disappear because it is not feasible to pay those workers more, or it may be cheaper to move those job abroad and import the resulting products.&lt;p&gt;This also requires workers to struggle and strike not for their job, but for someone else&amp;#x27;s.&lt;p&gt;(I am not saying one approach is better than the other, in fact I am usually not too fond of unions, but I am trying to explain the union&amp;#x27;s point of view)</text><parent_chain><item><author>jasode</author><text>&lt;i&gt;&amp;gt;For the average joe who just wants to go to work and get a paycheck, the bigger picture is often lost.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;Isn&amp;#x27;t it possible the armchair talking heads like us are the ones missing the bigger picture and the &lt;i&gt;actual workers&lt;/i&gt; are the ones who actually get it?&lt;p&gt;Let&amp;#x27;s consider the Boeing workers in South Carolina:&lt;p&gt;- 2009-09  74% of employees vote against the union and &lt;i&gt;decertify&lt;/i&gt; it[1]&lt;p&gt;- 2009-10  Boeing breaks ground on new South Carolina plant to build 787 airplanes[2]&lt;p&gt;- 2017-02  again, 74% of employees vote against IAM union representation[3]&lt;p&gt;The &amp;quot;uncertainty&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;doubt&amp;quot; in &amp;quot;FUD&amp;quot;?  The South Carolina workers are quite &lt;i&gt;certain&lt;/i&gt; and have &lt;i&gt;no doubt&lt;/i&gt; that in 2009, Seattle lost the extra 787 assembly work and it was given to SC workers without the union.&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s not irrational that SC workers &lt;i&gt;fear&lt;/i&gt; the loss of jobs in Seattle could happen to them.    The upcoming 797[4] model is in the works.  It&amp;#x27;s not irrational for South Carolina workers to think that unionizing for better wages will move that 797 production elsewhere. (E.g. Seattle may end up losing &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; of the 787 production.[5])&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;&amp;gt;Well that was 50 years ago, &lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well, the struggle &amp;amp; benefits gained 50 years ago is an abstraction.  The events of 2009 are very fresh and real in the minds of workers.&lt;p&gt;Voting &amp;quot;YES&amp;quot; for a union doesn&amp;#x27;t necessarily mean you get a wage increase.  It means (1) you &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; get a wage increase or (2) you might have no job.&lt;p&gt;How does a worker properly weigh those possible outcomes?&lt;p&gt;[1] &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.seattletimes.com&amp;#x2F;business&amp;#x2F;boeing-aerospace&amp;#x2F;boeing-charleston-decertifies-machinists-union&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.seattletimes.com&amp;#x2F;business&amp;#x2F;boeing-aerospace&amp;#x2F;boein...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;[2] &lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.nbcnews.com&amp;#x2F;id&amp;#x2F;33521235&amp;#x2F;ns&amp;#x2F;business-us_business&amp;#x2F;t&amp;#x2F;boeing-chooses-sc-new-assembly-line&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.nbcnews.com&amp;#x2F;id&amp;#x2F;33521235&amp;#x2F;ns&amp;#x2F;business-us_business&amp;#x2F;t...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;[3] &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.seattletimes.com&amp;#x2F;business&amp;#x2F;boeing-aerospace&amp;#x2F;boeings-south-carolina-workers-resoundingly-defeat-union&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.seattletimes.com&amp;#x2F;business&amp;#x2F;boeing-aerospace&amp;#x2F;boein...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;[4] &lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;money.cnn.com&amp;#x2F;2017&amp;#x2F;06&amp;#x2F;20&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;companies&amp;#x2F;boeing-797-paris-first-peek&amp;#x2F;index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;money.cnn.com&amp;#x2F;2017&amp;#x2F;06&amp;#x2F;20&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;companies&amp;#x2F;boeing-797-pa...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;[5] &lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.heraldnet.com&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;future-of-boeings-787-seems-secure-but-maybe-not-in-everett&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.heraldnet.com&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;future-of-boeings-787-seems-se...&lt;/a&gt;</text></item><item><author>tw04</author><text>&amp;gt;This pattern isn&amp;#x27;t as simple to dismiss as &amp;quot;anti-union FUD&amp;quot;, especially since it&amp;#x27;s seen among people who are already union members in closed shops.&lt;p&gt;You act as though anti-union FUD can&amp;#x27;t affect members.  That&amp;#x27;s kind of ridiculous... if it didn&amp;#x27;t affect MEMBERS as well as non-members, what would be the point?&lt;p&gt;If I&amp;#x27;m a less-educated union member who has no concept of what life was like before unions, and constantly hear that unions just take my money while providing no benefit, I&amp;#x27;m probably likely to be swayed.  What&amp;#x27;s the union going to do?  Tell me about how 50 years ago companies would literally put my life at risk because there was no downside for them.  And then the people financing the anti-union movement are spewing &amp;quot;Well that was 50 years ago, that would &lt;i&gt;NEVER&lt;/i&gt; happen again&amp;quot; - all while doing everything they can to drive up hours, drive down safety, and insulate themselves from any responsibility RE: workman&amp;#x27;s comp.&lt;p&gt;For the average joe who just wants to go to work and get a paycheck, the &lt;i&gt;bigger picture&lt;/i&gt; is often lost.</text></item><item><author>chimeracoder</author><text>&amp;gt; The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s way more complicated than that, and it can&amp;#x27;t simply be dismissed as a &amp;quot;FUD campaign&amp;quot;. Union members are actually disproportionately likely to &lt;i&gt;support&lt;/i&gt; things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren&amp;#x27;t obligated to be members if they choose not to.&lt;p&gt;Similarly, union membership rates have dropped even in states that have very union-friendly laws (like New York and Massachusetts), and unions are having less and less success at the polls, meaning non-unionized workers are rejecting the proposals to unionize their workforces (UAW elections in particular - AFL-CIO elections to a lesser extent).&lt;p&gt;This pattern isn&amp;#x27;t as simple to dismiss as &amp;quot;anti-union FUD&amp;quot;, especially since it&amp;#x27;s seen among people who are &lt;i&gt;already&lt;/i&gt; union members in closed shops.&lt;p&gt;The reasons for this have to do with the history of unionization of closed shops, and the regional economic pressures it creates.</text></item><item><author>brndnmtthws</author><text>Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty&amp;#x27;s work if you&amp;#x27;re curious about this).</text></item></parent_chain></comment><story><title>Workers at Amazon&apos;s main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday</title><url>https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-italy-strike/workers-at-amazons-main-italian-site-to-hold-first-strike-on-black-friday-idUSKBN1DN1DS</url></story>
<instructions>Your goal is to analyze the following comment and estimate how highly it will be upvoted by the Hacker News community.</instructions><comment><author>ultraluminous</author><text>Yes, but nothing in this speaks to the value of unions. It speaks volumes to the US legal climate allowing massive corporations to subtly coarse employees to vote against their economic interests. Basically what you&amp;#x27;re describing is &amp;quot;If you&amp;#x27;ll ask for more rights or better compensation, we&amp;#x27;ll close down this factory and move it somewhere where people will just say Thank You and shut the hell up&amp;quot;. I think that phrase is overused, but this is one of the most obvious examples of Race to the Bottom ever.</text><parent_chain><item><author>jasode</author><text>&lt;i&gt;&amp;gt;For the average joe who just wants to go to work and get a paycheck, the bigger picture is often lost.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;Isn&amp;#x27;t it possible the armchair talking heads like us are the ones missing the bigger picture and the &lt;i&gt;actual workers&lt;/i&gt; are the ones who actually get it?&lt;p&gt;Let&amp;#x27;s consider the Boeing workers in South Carolina:&lt;p&gt;- 2009-09  74% of employees vote against the union and &lt;i&gt;decertify&lt;/i&gt; it[1]&lt;p&gt;- 2009-10  Boeing breaks ground on new South Carolina plant to build 787 airplanes[2]&lt;p&gt;- 2017-02  again, 74% of employees vote against IAM union representation[3]&lt;p&gt;The &amp;quot;uncertainty&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;doubt&amp;quot; in &amp;quot;FUD&amp;quot;?  The South Carolina workers are quite &lt;i&gt;certain&lt;/i&gt; and have &lt;i&gt;no doubt&lt;/i&gt; that in 2009, Seattle lost the extra 787 assembly work and it was given to SC workers without the union.&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s not irrational that SC workers &lt;i&gt;fear&lt;/i&gt; the loss of jobs in Seattle could happen to them.    The upcoming 797[4] model is in the works.  It&amp;#x27;s not irrational for South Carolina workers to think that unionizing for better wages will move that 797 production elsewhere. (E.g. Seattle may end up losing &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; of the 787 production.[5])&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;&amp;gt;Well that was 50 years ago, &lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well, the struggle &amp;amp; benefits gained 50 years ago is an abstraction.  The events of 2009 are very fresh and real in the minds of workers.&lt;p&gt;Voting &amp;quot;YES&amp;quot; for a union doesn&amp;#x27;t necessarily mean you get a wage increase.  It means (1) you &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; get a wage increase or (2) you might have no job.&lt;p&gt;How does a worker properly weigh those possible outcomes?&lt;p&gt;[1] &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.seattletimes.com&amp;#x2F;business&amp;#x2F;boeing-aerospace&amp;#x2F;boeing-charleston-decertifies-machinists-union&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.seattletimes.com&amp;#x2F;business&amp;#x2F;boeing-aerospace&amp;#x2F;boein...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;[2] &lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.nbcnews.com&amp;#x2F;id&amp;#x2F;33521235&amp;#x2F;ns&amp;#x2F;business-us_business&amp;#x2F;t&amp;#x2F;boeing-chooses-sc-new-assembly-line&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.nbcnews.com&amp;#x2F;id&amp;#x2F;33521235&amp;#x2F;ns&amp;#x2F;business-us_business&amp;#x2F;t...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;[3] &lt;a href=&quot;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.seattletimes.com&amp;#x2F;business&amp;#x2F;boeing-aerospace&amp;#x2F;boeings-south-carolina-workers-resoundingly-defeat-union&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.seattletimes.com&amp;#x2F;business&amp;#x2F;boeing-aerospace&amp;#x2F;boein...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;[4] &lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;money.cnn.com&amp;#x2F;2017&amp;#x2F;06&amp;#x2F;20&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;companies&amp;#x2F;boeing-797-paris-first-peek&amp;#x2F;index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;money.cnn.com&amp;#x2F;2017&amp;#x2F;06&amp;#x2F;20&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;companies&amp;#x2F;boeing-797-pa...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;p&gt;[5] &lt;a href=&quot;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.heraldnet.com&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;future-of-boeings-787-seems-secure-but-maybe-not-in-everett&amp;#x2F;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http:&amp;#x2F;&amp;#x2F;www.heraldnet.com&amp;#x2F;news&amp;#x2F;future-of-boeings-787-seems-se...&lt;/a&gt;</text></item><item><author>tw04</author><text>&amp;gt;This pattern isn&amp;#x27;t as simple to dismiss as &amp;quot;anti-union FUD&amp;quot;, especially since it&amp;#x27;s seen among people who are already union members in closed shops.&lt;p&gt;You act as though anti-union FUD can&amp;#x27;t affect members.  That&amp;#x27;s kind of ridiculous... if it didn&amp;#x27;t affect MEMBERS as well as non-members, what would be the point?&lt;p&gt;If I&amp;#x27;m a less-educated union member who has no concept of what life was like before unions, and constantly hear that unions just take my money while providing no benefit, I&amp;#x27;m probably likely to be swayed.  What&amp;#x27;s the union going to do?  Tell me about how 50 years ago companies would literally put my life at risk because there was no downside for them.  And then the people financing the anti-union movement are spewing &amp;quot;Well that was 50 years ago, that would &lt;i&gt;NEVER&lt;/i&gt; happen again&amp;quot; - all while doing everything they can to drive up hours, drive down safety, and insulate themselves from any responsibility RE: workman&amp;#x27;s comp.&lt;p&gt;For the average joe who just wants to go to work and get a paycheck, the &lt;i&gt;bigger picture&lt;/i&gt; is often lost.</text></item><item><author>chimeracoder</author><text>&amp;gt; The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages&lt;p&gt;It&amp;#x27;s way more complicated than that, and it can&amp;#x27;t simply be dismissed as a &amp;quot;FUD campaign&amp;quot;. Union members are actually disproportionately likely to &lt;i&gt;support&lt;/i&gt; things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren&amp;#x27;t obligated to be members if they choose not to.&lt;p&gt;Similarly, union membership rates have dropped even in states that have very union-friendly laws (like New York and Massachusetts), and unions are having less and less success at the polls, meaning non-unionized workers are rejecting the proposals to unionize their workforces (UAW elections in particular - AFL-CIO elections to a lesser extent).&lt;p&gt;This pattern isn&amp;#x27;t as simple to dismiss as &amp;quot;anti-union FUD&amp;quot;, especially since it&amp;#x27;s seen among people who are &lt;i&gt;already&lt;/i&gt; union members in closed shops.&lt;p&gt;The reasons for this have to do with the history of unionization of closed shops, and the regional economic pressures it creates.</text></item><item><author>brndnmtthws</author><text>Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty&amp;#x27;s work if you&amp;#x27;re curious about this).</text></item></parent_chain></comment><story><title>Workers at Amazon&apos;s main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday</title><url>https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-italy-strike/workers-at-amazons-main-italian-site-to-hold-first-strike-on-black-friday-idUSKBN1DN1DS</url></story>