<instructions>Your goal is to analyze the following comment and estimate how highly it will be upvoted by the Hacker News community.</instructions><comment><author>pg</author><text>&lt;i&gt;Yes, you hear a lot of successful founders talking about how they killed themselves to get there. But thanks to survivorship bias, you don&apos;t hear from all the ones who risked everything, turned their lives and relationships and health upside down, and then lost.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;You seem to be conflating the concepts of necessary and sufficient conditions.  Working hard may be a necessary condition for success, but I don&apos;t think anyone has ever claimed it was a sufficient one.</text><parent_chain><item><author>ryanwaggoner</author><text>In 2009 I started a company with another guy, and I used to read articles like this, about how startups are so very difficult, and how you have to put everything on the line, your health, your wealth, your relationships, everything. It&apos;s a very common theme in startup-land, and I constantly hear from founders who sacrificed their marriages, worked 19 hour days, slept under their desks, and racked up tens of thousands in credit card debt, all to make their dream a reality. The message is very clear: you have to be willing to do &lt;i&gt;anything&lt;/i&gt; to succeed. Articles like this fed my ego, and made me feel like I was part of an elite cadre of founders. Then my startup failed, leaving myself and my cofounder with tens of thousands in debt and a pretty rough mess to clean up.&lt;p&gt;In the meantime, a good friend of mine who started a little project on the side slowly grew it over a period of a couple years into something that supports his family very well and has a good shot at doing millions in revenue within the next 5-10 years. And I don&apos;t think he&apos;s been very stressed while doing it. He loves what he does, has tons of time for his family, etc. The cynical among us might term this a &quot;lifestyle business&quot; and they&apos;d be right. But I don&apos;t think that bothers him and I can&apos;t say I blame him.&lt;p&gt;There&apos;s this really ugly side of the startup world that drives founders to completely unreasonable levels in pursuit of fast wealth creation, and it comes as a result of two factors: founders are naturally ambitious, driven people, and investors are in a hit-driven business. So the result is that investors naturally gravitate towards founders who either hit a billion dollars in a few years, or die trying (sometimes literally), and then investors and founders both are incentivized to craft this story that they only way to win is to win big, fast, and with all your chips on the line. And these things become self-reinforcing, so you have investors talking about how the real reason startups are so valuable is that founders can work so hard that they accomplish a career&apos;s worth of work in just a few years. The message is clear: you need to work 90 hours a week and either be the next Dropbox or flame out. And for the model most investors work under, that&apos;s the only way they really make money.&lt;p&gt;But the more I look around, the more I wonder if there&apos;s really much correlation between blowing your life up and startup success. Yes, you hear a lot of successful founders talking about how they killed themselves to get there. But thanks to survivorship bias, you don&apos;t hear from all the ones who risked everything, turned their lives and relationships and health upside down, and then lost. And increasingly, I&apos;m seeing a lot of examples of very successful founders who definitely work hard, but keep an eye on themselves, their health, their relationships, etc. and have lines they&apos;re just not willing to cross. 37signals is the classic example here, but there are scores of others, many of them right here on HN. The key seems to be patience and humility, two things a lot of 20-something founders (including myself) have in very short supply&lt;p&gt;Maybe startups are so hard because we&apos;re doing them wrong.</text></item></parent_chain></comment><story><title>Harsh Realities From 500 Startups Founders</title><url>http://500.co/2010/11/04/harsh-realities-from-500-startups-founders/</url></story>
<instructions>Your goal is to analyze the following comment and estimate how highly it will be upvoted by the Hacker News community.</instructions><comment><author>loceng</author><text>Very much agree. I am planning to do a blog post that will touch on the idea that what investors promote as &quot;the only way&quot; is purely promoting and reenforcing a schema that&apos;s purely to their benefit. For me this had set very unhealthy psychological boundaries and pressures to work within. There are completely different ways though, as you state with your friend who slowly grew his venture over a couple of years. That high pressure path is addictive to many though, as you mentioned. I am okay with the slower path now - it&apos;s still a struggle but I&apos;m currently hoping I can arrange my life to have the support I need to get me through the time and finance it on my own as I go, and perhaps smaller levels of investment from the local community. It&apos;s just not worth killing yourself over (literally or not), and you know, you still might just get lucky - it might just happen you get an opportunity for a large investment down the road.</text><parent_chain><item><author>ryanwaggoner</author><text>In 2009 I started a company with another guy, and I used to read articles like this, about how startups are so very difficult, and how you have to put everything on the line, your health, your wealth, your relationships, everything. It&apos;s a very common theme in startup-land, and I constantly hear from founders who sacrificed their marriages, worked 19 hour days, slept under their desks, and racked up tens of thousands in credit card debt, all to make their dream a reality. The message is very clear: you have to be willing to do &lt;i&gt;anything&lt;/i&gt; to succeed. Articles like this fed my ego, and made me feel like I was part of an elite cadre of founders. Then my startup failed, leaving myself and my cofounder with tens of thousands in debt and a pretty rough mess to clean up.&lt;p&gt;In the meantime, a good friend of mine who started a little project on the side slowly grew it over a period of a couple years into something that supports his family very well and has a good shot at doing millions in revenue within the next 5-10 years. And I don&apos;t think he&apos;s been very stressed while doing it. He loves what he does, has tons of time for his family, etc. The cynical among us might term this a &quot;lifestyle business&quot; and they&apos;d be right. But I don&apos;t think that bothers him and I can&apos;t say I blame him.&lt;p&gt;There&apos;s this really ugly side of the startup world that drives founders to completely unreasonable levels in pursuit of fast wealth creation, and it comes as a result of two factors: founders are naturally ambitious, driven people, and investors are in a hit-driven business. So the result is that investors naturally gravitate towards founders who either hit a billion dollars in a few years, or die trying (sometimes literally), and then investors and founders both are incentivized to craft this story that they only way to win is to win big, fast, and with all your chips on the line. And these things become self-reinforcing, so you have investors talking about how the real reason startups are so valuable is that founders can work so hard that they accomplish a career&apos;s worth of work in just a few years. The message is clear: you need to work 90 hours a week and either be the next Dropbox or flame out. And for the model most investors work under, that&apos;s the only way they really make money.&lt;p&gt;But the more I look around, the more I wonder if there&apos;s really much correlation between blowing your life up and startup success. Yes, you hear a lot of successful founders talking about how they killed themselves to get there. But thanks to survivorship bias, you don&apos;t hear from all the ones who risked everything, turned their lives and relationships and health upside down, and then lost. And increasingly, I&apos;m seeing a lot of examples of very successful founders who definitely work hard, but keep an eye on themselves, their health, their relationships, etc. and have lines they&apos;re just not willing to cross. 37signals is the classic example here, but there are scores of others, many of them right here on HN. The key seems to be patience and humility, two things a lot of 20-something founders (including myself) have in very short supply&lt;p&gt;Maybe startups are so hard because we&apos;re doing them wrong.</text></item></parent_chain></comment><story><title>Harsh Realities From 500 Startups Founders</title><url>http://500.co/2010/11/04/harsh-realities-from-500-startups-founders/</url></story>