text:
Was Trayvon Martin Attempting to get Away when George Zimmerman killed Him?
Amy L. Siewert is a Crime Laboratory Analyst employed by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement Crime Laboratory. She examined TM's Fruit of the Loom dark gray hooded sweatshirt (Exhibit ME 12) and the light gray Nike sweatshirt (Exhibit ME 8) that he was wearing underneath the hoodie when GZ shot and killed him
In her report dated March 22, 2012, she concluded:
The sweatshirts each display a hole located in the upper chest area. The areas around these holes were microscopically examined and chemically processed for the presence of gunshot residues. Both holes displayed residues and physical effects consistent with a contact shot.
In her bench notes, which the prosecution released in the recent document dump last Thursday, she specifically noted that her microscopic examination of the the light gray sweatshirt (ME 8) "shows results consistent with a contact shot (tearing a hole, sooting around the hole, burning/singeing, no powder pattern, vaporous Pb surrounding the hole). She also noted that the hole exhibited "stellate" tearing. She described the hole in the hooded sweatshirt (ME 12) identically, but noted L-shaped tearing.
These are the classic signs of a contact shot. That is, the muzzle of the gun was in contact with the outer hooded sweatshirt with the light gray sweatshirt immediately behind, or in contact with it.
She also test fired GZ's gun into squares of cloth cut from both sweatshirts and verified that the muzzle of the gun was in contact with the sweatshirts.
She also noted that the holes in the sweatshirts align with each other.
She also measured the vertical distance from the hole up to to the neck seam at approximately 7 inches. The horizontal distance to the shoulder seam was approximately 7 1/2 inches.
Although these holes align with each other, they do not align with the entry wound in TM's chest. According to the autopsy report, the entry wound is 1 inch left of the midline and 1/2 inch below the left nipple.
Therefore, the entry wound is approximately 3 1/2 inches below and 2 1/2 inches closer to the midline than the holes in the sweatshirts.
Also significant is that the entry wound was caused by a gunshot in which the muzzle of the gun was at an intermediate range of 2-4 inches.
I believe it means the sweatshirts were being pulled down or being held by GZ as TM was pulling back or attempting to stand up (and probably screaming for help as he did so) when GZ pressed the muzzle of his gun against the hooded sweatshirt and pulled the trigger. The two sweatshirts were in contact with each other (i.e., gripped together) and approximately 2-4 inches from his chest.
The trajectory of the shot would have been straight through neither varying up or down nor left or right, if TM were leaning forward while attempting to get away, but restrained from escaping by GZ's grip on his sweatshirts.
This entry was posted on Sunday, July 15th, 2012 at 12:00 pm and is filed under Crime, George Zimmerman, Martin's Sweatshirts in Zimmerman Case, Murder 2, Trayvon Martin, Uncategorized.	You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
116 Responses to Was Trayvon Martin Attempting to get Away when George Zimmerman killed Him?
PiranhaMom says:
@Margaret –
Trayvon ABSOLUTELY was not battling Zimmerman.
Trayvon was struggling to escape, but Zimmerman had him clutched by the shirts AS ZIMMERMAN UNCONSCIOUSLY RE-ENACTED FOR SANFORD P.D. VIDEOS TWICE, clutching his left (dominant) hand tight to his chest in a claw-like motion while his right "fired" the Kel-Tek semi-automatic pistol.
And while this re-enactment was going on, on-site, what was Detective Chris Serino doing? Looking AT THE GROUND.
The other time Zimmerman re-enacted this motion was for the stress-test operator, as caught by the overhead videocam. Within about two hours of the murder.
FURTHER, Zimmerman said he had to be "CAREFUL NOT TO SHOOT MY OTHER HAND." Well, where the hell WAS that other hand? Right where it had grabbed Trayvon's shirts (both hoodie and under-sweatshirt, together) at chest level, then dragged his hand and the shirts out of the line of fire (to protect his left hand) as he carefully placed the shot to Trayvon's heart. Thus, the bullet hole in the two shirts match each other, but are askew from the fatal wound in Trayvon's torso.
This is FORENSIC EVIDENCE, from the Medical Examiner's Office.
There was no blood on Trayvon's hands, under his nails, on the hoodie cuffs or sleeves – NADA. No Zimmerman DNA, either, from blood, saliva or mucus.
Zimmerman's lies about Trayvon smothering his bloodied nose and mouth, then sliding his hand across Zimmerman's shirt to reach Zimmerman's gun are insane – WHERE IS THE TRAIL OF ZIMMERMAN"S BLOOD AND MUCUS ACROSS ZIMMERMAN'S SHIRT IF TRAYVON HAD DONE THIS? Where is the Zimmerman blood and mucus on Trayvon's hands? NONE OF THAT EXISTED.
Zimmerman LIED. He grabbed Trayvon as soon as he said "What are you doing around here!" and as they fell to the ground Trayvon was heard to say "Get off!" Zimmerman invented the lie that he was UNDER Trayvon, so he could claim he could not get away.
The truth is that Zimmerman was determined not to let Trayvon get away, as in "These assholes, they always get away!"
It was Trayvon who was ILLEGALLY DETAINED by Zimmerman's grasp and Zimmerman shot him to cover up that crime.
Failing to pay attention to the forensic evidence was Bernie de la Rionda's fatal mistake in prosecuting this crime.
Just occurred to me all over again: George, to police: "I know everyone in this neighborhood." That was justification for his saying Trayvon Martin was suspicious, didn't belong there.
It was obviously UNTRUE. Within a half hour, plenty of people from the neighborhood WHOM HE DID NOT KNOW became witnesses to the murder.
Something keeps coming back to me from the Serino interview. I think it was the second Serino interview.
Two sets of witnesses (the 13-year-old boy and the two women) described the fact that the police did not want to hear them tell their version of the facts they witnessed. Both of these witnesses offered their information quickly and were either urged to change their statements, assured that their statements were wrong, or ignored, because the police called their statements "inconsistent." One hopes that they eventually were able to give their unadulterated statements to Corey's office. However, bearing that in mind, something Serino said to George, in a challenging way, comes back to me.
Serino said that he had PERSONALLY received a call from a person who claimed that she had actually seen Zimmerman trying to restrain Martin, who was trying to escape him. She told Serino, apparently, that she did not want to give him her name because she lived near Zimmerman. Serino said he hoped she would call back and identify herself. When Serino suggested to Zimmerman that he might have tried to restrain Martin, Zimmerman said, "Nossir."
It would seem to me that once the whole thing blew up and the investigation was taken away from Wolfinger's control and put into Corey's control, and corey had incentive to get more REAL information, that initial "witness to the unlawful restraint" might have finally been interviewed and fully debriefed. It may not actually be the case that there was NO WITNESS to how the altercation or confrontation started. She might have been first ignored or even deliberately marginalized by the police, and then interviewed but her witness statement kept under wraps by the prosecutor. And why? Because she did not want to identify herself and because her information would be incendiary if it showed that (a) Zimmerman tried to illegally restrain Martin AND HAD HIS GUN OUT AT THE POINT OF THE INITIAL ENCOUNTER; and (b) the cops knew that almost immediately and deliberately hid that information. It would make it a whole lot harder to get this case "pled out" without a trial; it would make this look more like first-degree murder than second- and it would DEFINITELY rule out manslaughter.
tonydphotog says:
I've often wondered if the "witness to the unlawful restraint" might actually be Shellie? With George being so controlling, and manipulative, it would make sense to me that she would want to be anonymous.
Not Shellie — she really IS loyal to George, and my guess is that she will remain so for years, at least. She will lie for him, anything.
Yes, Professor, "relentless," as many of us are in pursuit of justice based on evidence-based truth – because Trayvon Martin does not get to speak for himself, in the face of George Zimmerman's lies – lies that defy physical reality.
I thank you for bringing forth your review and analysis of the forensic studies, your presentation that opens this section. The fatal shot and how it happened is the issue in this case.
GZ is not facing conviction for "illegal detention." It's Murder 2.
It is ironic that GZ profiled TM because of TM's hoodie. George's final grasp of that hoodie (GZ's illegal detention of TM) is what created the 2″ – 4″ airlock noted in the forensic studies.
It shows that GZ could have simply held on to Trayvon and held him for arriving Sanford PD officers that GZ absolutely knew were enroute because he, GZ, had himself summoned them by hiis NEN 311 call.
It shows that having TM fully immobilized, GZ summarily executed Trayvon, coolly and comfortably (with the neighbor noting immediately after, that George was as emotional after the shooting as if he were "taking out the laundry."
I am hoping that, in anticipation of trial, the prosecutorial team will do some time stdies of how fast blood trickles and dries. Some chicken will have to give up its life, if chicken blood is as viscous as human blood. The State can't force GZ to provide the sample (5th Amendment) and one significant issue would be GZ's blood fibrinogin level – the clotting factor. But he was a robust man in the strongest years of his life, so I expect his blood was loaded with fibrinogin and clotted quickly. So the scalp wound likely happened just before the 38-second scream.
(Incidentally, what I would do is get some autologous-donated human blood – blood that's self-donated, in anticipation of surgery – that was not needed, thus not used, and slated for disposal. Hopefully from a university hospital in the State of FL , Contract with the University for the human coagulation time study of, blood running through the stubble of a human head. Get a nice prison volunteer for $50 to shave his head and get blood dripped on the back of it. There are likely studies of how fast blood emerges from cuts to the scalp, to add to the study and tell the testers how fast to drip the test blood on Mr. $50. Viideo this.)
Thus I see that the on-the-ground wrestling started somewhere south of the "T" where there was an original fall-to-the ground (DeeDee hearing "get off, get off") and continued furiously 35 to 40 ft. in various positions, perhaps a brief break-away by TM half-up, half-down,that in the penultimate position TM managed clamber on top of burly George and in the process George got the back of his head nicked and it started to bleed.
Infuriated by TM's lack of submission to his "authority" and incensed by his "injuryy' George relied on his upper-bodu strength to overcome TM and flip him over, with GZ dominant and capturing both arms and upper body of TM.
TM started to cry — the whimpering -, (which people heard) GZ then tried to stifle TM's cries by placing his hand over TM's mouth. (Just like George's Freudian slip to the investigator.)
But GZ couldn't get his gun out of his pocket/holster when he had one hand grasping TM's shirts and the other over TM's mouth, so when GZ decided to go for his gun, he released his hold on TM's face, and the world has since heard the haunting, terrified cry.
GZ took his time to "aim" (his word) his shot, placing the weapon's barrel to TM's heart because he was, essentially, working in the dark, and he wanted to be certain he did not injure his other hand that was grasping the shirt in such close proximity to what GZ would have considered "the sweet spot."
It was not a spur-of-the moment shot. Time went into it. George took that time. It was a fully-considered decision. And then George executed that decision.
The crux of this case is the time GZ took to make this decision, and his callous disregard for human life when he executed the decision.
And so the young life of Trayvon Martin, who literally thought "the sky's the limit" – the truck driver's son who aspired to a career in aeronautics – that young life was blasted to shreds – just like his once-beating young heart.
It was like shooting a fledgling out of the nest.
Brandi Bell-Gibson says:
Isnt it possible the holes didnt line up because had his hands up in a surender position?
Brandi, the shot-holes in the two shirts, worn together, lined up precisely to each other — much higher on the garments than in their normally-worn position.
This is because GZ, who was 4″ shorter than TM, must have clutched TM's shirts (together as a unit) in GZ's fist, both to detain TM. (GZ fearing, "these assholes, they always get away.") And in addition, to "steady" TM as the victim-target, so GZ could shoot TM directly in the heart.
GZ's choice of ammo is the hollow-point.
The grabbing of the shirt by the shorter man, and pulling it toward GZ (with TM pulling back, as best he could) meant that the fabric, a knit, stretched downward because GZ was pulling on it, and additionally had the fabric bunched in his fist.
So while TM's body was shot near his nipple, the stretched shirts were shot up at the armhole level.
If TM had his arms up in the air in a surrender stance, that would have raised the shirt fabric higher on the body, instead of lower.
So for the shot to enter TM's torso as it did, then the shotholes in the shirts would be in a position way lower than TM's nipple.
(If you haave a kid's giant teddybear in a Pooh shirt, you can test
this out.)
It is my firm belief that TM was pinned to the ground, with his arms pinned to his side. GZ is a bouncer who was experienced in immobilizing drunks, druggies and troublemakers at rave parties. I believe from comments by witnesses who heard the initial altercation, that the two men scuffled on the ground. I am certain that GZ, with 45 lbs. more body weight, got the upper hand and was able to roll over TM, and mount TM's prone body with his legs OUTside TM's arms – thus imprisioning and immobilizing both TM's torso and his arms, pinning all to the ground.
As you saw in the 7-11 video, TM was a tall, norrow teen with skinny legs and his arms would match. "Wide body George" would have had no problem "riding" TM's narrow waist and arms. Thus TM was defenseles. He could not strike back at GZ or protect himself, or claw himself away from GZ to get up and run. The long desperate cries for help I heard, strangled cries, struck me as coming from a trapped and imprisoned and desperately helpless young person facing death and knowing it.
They are strangled-sounding cries becaus 200 lb. George is sitting on him
In this position, with GZ on top, with his grasp of TM's clothing further imprisonong TM, it would be so easy for GZ to bend over slightly, draw his gun from his pocket (or holster), carefully place it right on top of where Trayvon Martin's heart was beating wildly, make certain it was just in the right place to explode TM's heart when it entered his torso, and for GZ to avoid shooting his other hand, which might just have been an inch or two away from the bullsye he envisioned on TM's body. (GZ remarked to the investigators how surprised he was that he did not shoot his own hand.)
This "drawing his gun & setting up the target" would take more than a few secnds because George was determined to make a good shot and would not have to face, perhaps, an erratic injured person, although a hollow-point to the chest would be fatal 99% of the time). In other words, George was looking out for George, as always, and in that dark, stormy night with little visibility, he was forced to do this almost by Braile.
Because TM was 4″ taller than GZ, this means GZ had to lean forward, head slanted down, to place the barrel in the right spot on TM;s shirt. It's a snub-nose, so he'd lean fairly close (as opposed to using, say, a Dirty Harry weapon). I expect the shirt was held taut, and GZ was totally unaware of the 2″ to 4″ air gap between shirts and torso that ballistics reported. Because he held it taut he may have thought it was up against shirts + TM's skin (which would have reslted in different residue than the crime lab reports.)
And while GZ was leaning forward for the barrel placement, the blood from the two superficial cuts on the back of GZ's head (which I believe he sustained in the on-the-ground fighting earlier, when his head did come in contact with the sidewalk, a few feet away), or "in the bushes" as one witness heard them. The scalp is an unbelievably copious blood-gusher where there is no fat/muscle cushion between skin and skull.
As George leaned forward for his final act, the blood then flowed toward his ears and ended up pooling in his goatee by his chin.
GZ asked a neighbor, right after the shot, to take a picture of the back of his head (so that he could prove self-defense, witnessed by his wounds). GZ likely had never had a superficial skin cut on his head, so HE was impressed by the blood, but had no way of knowing that probably 25% of the adult population has had an equivalent "injury" and they all know it's no big deal.
Although it would ot have been painful, GZ was likely furious his own blood had been spilled, and instead of just holding "the suspect" (GZ's word for TM) for the arriving Sanford PD officers, GZ shot him in anger as payback, and thought he could get away with it.
If he had a good enough story.
GZ told the investigating officers the next day – with that ridiculous
pantomime of drawing his gun while UNDER TM – then said he "aimed" (which he sorta … did, placed the muzzle right on the target).
By sitting athward Trayvon, with GZ imprisoning his victim by GZ's weight, GZ was free to move his shooting arm and bend his elbow with ease (impossible to do if GZ himself were on the ground.)
Equally important, if GZ were on the ground trying to do this with TM above, the blood on the back of GZ's head would not have flowed AGAINST GRAVITY upslope to GZ's facial hair, and, in fact, would have been smeared by the wet grass next to the back of his heat and likely most would have been wiped off by the wet grass.
The EMT's basically cleaned up GZ on-site (in back of the patrol car) but note that the first thing GZ did at the station was ask to se the restroom – where he cleaned up. (his report),
I can just see Chris Serino and Doris Singleton eyeing that blood tracery on GZ's head and face, with it's precise edges and outlines! Seeing that pattern, I think it would have been a far different interview.
Officer TM Smith did report that the back of GZ's jacket was wet with grass on it – of course, the grass would have stuck to GZ's jacket from the rolling around just before GZ was able to capture the dominant position above TM. No grass was visible in the shots taken of GZ's SPD station arrival – I expect it stuck to the back of the seat in the back of the squad car, He'd still be wet, because it was raining, and we know he was on the ground.
My belief is that somewhere south of the T-intersection for the dog-walk/rear greenspace for the condos, there was the first physical encounter between GZ and TM, that TM gave GZ the elbow as GZ went to grab him, GZ did grab TM's shirt by the front, right from the start, as a form of restraint, but it was awkward, they both fell, and it was a rolling, grappling, wrestling fight.
TM did not seem to be much of a pugilist (no marks of battle on his hands) and I expect GZ either cracked his nose when he fell, likely on the concrete (that would smart, and yes, he would blame Trayvon) – or, part of GM's gun flew back after the shot and give him that tiny mark on his nose.
I think GZ's back-of-the-head lacerations happened just before he gained the dominant position over TM because the blood was fresh enough to flow – and had not been washed off during the on-the-ground fighting.
It is interesting to note that GZ insisted an evidentiary photo of the back of his head be taken (to prove he had been injured, claiming Trayvon's workmanship – his proof to a jury – BUT he refused repeated recommendations by police, EMT and medcal professionals that he have his NOSE examined by an ENT specialist (ears-nose-throat) because he knew damned well the resulting report would show his story to be ridiculous – as has been pointed out on this blogsite.
So thanks, Brandi, for questioning the shirts and the placement of the holes. Evidence must be examined and re-examined. That's what we do here. Welcome aboars!
You are graphic and relentless. The prosecution should hire you to do its closing argument.
Since that isn't going to happen, the prosecutors should copy your comments and use them to make their closing argument.
FYI: Since the prosecution has the burden of proof, it gets to make two closing arguments, an opening and a rebuttal with the defense closing argument sandwiched in between.
The opening is typically devoted to explaining the jury instructions together with a brief summary of the evidence for context.
An experienced prosecutor always saves the onslaught and burial service, as I like to call it, for the rebuttal.
To be effective, the defense must anticipate the rebuttal.
I used a technique in which I planted a question in the minds of the jurors and asked them to think about it during the rebuttal.
"If they don't answer it," I said, "there is a reasonable doubt and you should find [insert client's first name} not guilty."
This technique can and frequently does derail a potentially effective rebuttal by placing the prosecutor on the defensive, forcing him or her to abandon their organized and well rehearsed argument.
Experienced and savvy prosecutors have seen this technique used before, so they attempt to anticipate it and are ready to rock and roll without notes.
Having the last word is an enormous advantage.
Thank you I appreciate your answer and warm welcome. You are very knowledgeable. I have a 16 year old. I think my life has been forever changed since the day I heard the 911 call. I had a strong reaction to hearing a kid scream for help and then the gunshot never heard anything like it in my life. After GZ said he was beaten and saw some of the reaction I started questioning what I taught my son re stranger danger. I taught my son to try to get away but if not allowed to he should fight to avoid location #2. This case made me question what do I need to tell him now.
I have gone through all the discovery with the exception of listening to all the jail calls. I have a few questions after going through the first disc dump again that I hope you can help me with.
Do you think he actually had the gun without a safety in his waist band in the front of his pants?
Is it possible through forensics to determine if his gun was in his pocket as this gun is marketed to fit in?
Is there any way of proving if zimm when he said went into pocket for cell really pulled out his gun. Then that explaining why Trayvon hit him?
Since the gunshot exploded the heart how is the "SEVERE" edema possible without injury.
If zim kicked him in the head him wiping his shoes off when entering the police station on video prevent forensics from determining if he was kicked in the head?
Would being killed immediately after blow to head stop any bruising ?
Does the ME's wording in most descriptions are pretty conservative like "unremarkable" and in the edema stating "severe" does this suggest an issue there?
I know thats alot of questions sorry you seem to know alot more than anyone I have been able to talk to thus far.
John Sharkey says:
Most of the issues I have with discussing this case is that, far to often, people discuss what they think and not what the evidence is actually capable of showing. Personally I do not believe that there is any evidence to have any thoughts as to whether the safety was on or off. Part of the evidence confisgated by law enforcement was a holster designed for the gun that GZ used to shoot TM. I have never heard a report that GZ claimed to have been going for a cell phone rather than his gun. GZ claims that TM went for his gun, but that he GZ beat TM to it pulled it and blindly shot him in the chest. The exact details the GZ describes in that "race for the gun" has some rather doubtful elements to it. If TM was kicked in the head, there would be some forensic evidence to that. There appears to be none. Gunshot "exploded" his heart. I did not see that terminology in the autopsy report. I'll check again.
I have a new post up regarding W9's revelations today.
Zimmerman: I Love the Smell of Napalm in the Morning.
GZ admits and brags on myspace about committing a crime and getting away with it because his friends didn't pinch (tell) on him (the page was confirmed by Mr. O'Mara). He gets away with assaulting a police office. He gets away with domestic violence against his ex-fiance. He gets away with molesting his cousin. He didn't get away with misleading the court about his finances yet the supporters are blaming the judge. His luck will run out sooner or later. If he is found not guilty in this case he will strike again even if it's years from now. Maybe that's why his mom use to beat him because he have some mental issue and was molesting his cousin. He was estranged from his own mother until he got in trouble with this case and needed her help. His own doctor said he needed to see his psychiatrist because he NEEDS HELP. He is a con artist.
lynp says:
The "assualt" and "cross restraining orders" were resolved in 2005 by a Judge. Even the suppossed back rub was longer then 7 years ago. For sure, in America we have State of Limitations laws that apply even to George Zimmerman. Poor simple Zimmerman who can barely articulate a complete sentence is hardly a con artist, charming or smart. Until I see evidence, I don't believe the rubbing incident or that his mother beat him for anything, let alone mental issues.
The lawyers have argued the merits of this matter before Judge Lester and he ruled in favor of the media intervenors pursuant to the Sunshine Law.
I'm surprised the defense did not appeal because this is potentially devastating to their case.
The only reason that I can think of to explain whey they would not have appealed, is they did not think there was any chance they would win.
Well, that and negligence.
I understood O'Mara was going to seek a stay of the judge's order today, but the information was released at the appointed hour before he acted.
He had most of Friday and the whole weekend to git 'r done.
I don't know what to say.
I have to run an errand now, so I'll post something later today.
UPDATE: Here's a link to the report in the Miami Herald that they were going to seek a stay.
The motion Judge Lester ruled on, on Friday, was a reconsideration motion. The original order for release was dated June 13th, and happened during the hearing that resulted in the revocation of Zimmerman's bond. My question is: Is there a certain number of motions that must be filed, prior to appeal or stay? If not, O'Mara didn't have just a weekend to file an appeal/stay. He had a month.
I have just begun reading this blog and am learning a great deal. I am very appreciative of the opportunity to do so. Thanks!
Thinking off the top of my head, which is always dangerous, W9 told the police that she told her parents who told his parents, but nothing came of it, as there was family pressure not to report the matter to the police.
Well, that means no member of the family who has any knowledge of this matter, especially GZ's mother and father, can testify that he's a good person or anything of the sort without opening the door to this devastating character evidence being admitted.
martingale says:
Reports recently said that Zimmerman was estranged from his family. Maybe this is the reason why.
Tony D says:
I find it interesting that GZ stopped molesting her when he became a legal adult.
Unless there is some provision in the Florida State Sunshine Law that I am not aware of, which mandates release of this information, I cannot think of any justification for releasing it and now I am concerned about the possible prejudice to his right to a fair trial.
I am not saying that I do not believe his cousin. I do, absolutely.
However, this evidence is not admissible at his trial under rule 404(b), because it has nothing to do with the murder charge and its potential for prejudice is extreme.
I don't understand why the defense did not immediately appeal to the Court of Appeals on Friday and request an emergency stay blocking the release of the information pending a ruling by the COA.
crazy1946 says:
Professor Leatherman: I think that MOM was doing what he wanted to do, allow the interview with wittness #9 to come out, but make it look like he was against it being released. Spoil the jury pool and spoil it a little more, and he thinks the case will either not make it to trial or be overturned if it does. The bad thing is simply that it might work!
If that was his strategy, it's a bad strategy because he won't get away with it.
Juries have been seated in far more serious cases than this one and a jury will be seated in this case.
I think he really screwed up by not appealing Judge Lester's order.
There were no witnesses (visually) at the time of the "action" in the location where TM's body fell forward, after the shot.
The first neighbor to come out spoke to a live GZ (but a dead TM).
The shirt(s) had to be pulled away (not billowing loose), held taut, or else the barrel would have been pressed against TM's shirts against TM's torso.
Forensic reports 2″ to 4″ airspace between shirt and skin.
Did TM hold his shirt out taut for GZ to place the gun barrel against — or did GZ hold TM's shirt taut during the final detaining by GZ?
You decide.
It's not my opinion that GZ took 40 seconds of screaming detention of TM to decide to shoot TM.
I expect GZ hoped to detain TM until the cops arrived, and thought exposing the gun would intimidate TM into complying.
Instead, TM was terrified and even more desperate to get away.
Likely GZ was equally desperate to detain TM or face ridicule by the cops when they arrived, instead of the heroic congratulations he expected.
TM no longer had his "blunt force weapon" (cell phone) which I believe he lost (dropped) when he slipped and fell. I believe he was temporarily out of GZ's grasp when that happened (whether previously mounted or undermounted) but was quickly recaptured. With a gun in one hand, GZ had only one way to detain TM: grab what he could. The shirts.
Somewhere toward the end of that 40 seconds of screaming it seems clear to me that GZ made the fatal, conscious decision ("recklessly") to kill TM instead of risking TM's escape.
He said he "aimed" his gun. He carefully placed it on the taut fabric – carefully, as we discovered, so he wouldn't shoot his other hand that was grasping the shirt. GZ said how surprised he was that he didnt shoot his other hand.
All the grappling that went on before, in whatever configuration of "who's on top,", was just so much – forgive me – foreplay.
Maybe GZ' intended to simply detain TM (although that was not a legal action) but at the END, fearful of losing his quarry he made the decision to retain him, "dead or alive."
You will note that GZ never claimed, "I was holding on to him for the police to arrive, and the gun went off accidentally." Forensic evidence could have backed that up.
No, he said he aimed – and he was surprised he didn't shoot his other hand.
I don't perceive GZ is a racist, against all blacks. This one, yes, he pre-judged as criminal. I think he said "fucking Goon" on his call to 311 (not "coon") b ecause the local gangbangers wore hoodies and called themselves The Goons.
But that perception is no excuse for hunting and detaining an innocent "suspect" (as he claimed TM was) then executing him to foil his escape. That's "reckless disregard for human life."
I am always open to new forensic information. It's not all in yet.
But for those who wail for "poor defenseless George" being ralroaded in this case, what's so defenseles about packing heat with hollow-point ammo?
What would make GZ less defenseless?
A bazooka? (Sorry, GZ couldn't carry a bazooka, concealed.)
There's more to come in this case.
Professor, please keep us posted.
And thanks for yeoman duty extended thus far.
Michael Stewart says:
Hi Patricia. First let me state that I wholeheartedly agree; GZ bears criminal responsibility for the murder of TM. Your responses leave me with the impression that there may be a degree of misunderstanding on this point. In my opinion Zimmerman was the provocateur, and the aggressor. I also agree that his initial intention, though incredibly foolhardy, was to pursue and detain. This course of action created a situation with the potential spin violently out of control, and that's precisely what happened.
Again, everything I post is my personal opinion and I reserve the right to be fallible human being.
A sampling of sniplets in no particular order:
"40 seconds of desperate screaming by TM, in the clutches of GZ, as GZ's gun is out and visible and pressed up to TM's shirt front."
" With a gun in one hand, GZ had only one way to detain TM: grab what he could. The shirts."
"GZ grabbed TM by his clothing while TM was trying to get up.
TM was never able to get up – GZ, in a crouch, was holding him at bay and looming over him.GZ brings the gun into view (expecting to subdue TM by its sight.)"
It's totally unnecessary to place yourself in jeopardy by grabbing a suspect when you have a gun in your hand.
I have no way of knowing how many readers have been accosted at gun point, but it's a terrifying and utterly helpless position to find yourself in. Lets just say it isn't difficult control a person from a safe distance in this situation. Should Martin run, Zimmerman had a line of sight on his direction and a cell phone. The SPD was in route, only seconds away.
He ultimately decided to murder a subdued and terrified TM to defend an image?
It seems you're trying to superimpose an implausible, static, 40 second "grab & hold" scenario over what was in reality, a furious out of control street brawl. Witness #6 observed the melee at close proximity. Along with cries for assistance, he witnessed frenetic movement spanning several ft.
First responder, officer Ricardo Ayala describes Zimmerman's physical appearance:
Sanford PD Police report says.
"I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been lying on his back on the ground."
We can all introduce an abundance of "what if's," "perhaps," and "maybe's," to support our individual theses, however the available evidence and logic suggests that GZ was on his back when he shot and killed GZ. And Frederick's analysis of Martin's clothing would appear to substantiate this position.
Patricia, we've waded deep into "never the twain shall meet" territory; deeper than I would normally venture. At this stage in the discussion I'll gladly surrender the final word.
GLTY!
"available evidence and logic suggests that GZ was on his back when he shot and killed GZ."
Guess we aren't going to need a trial, after all 🙂
Michael, I need an understanding of how TM ended up 5 ft. away from the dogwalk, lying face down with his hands under him,
Need to know how GZ could hold the fabric of TM's shirts taut while lying down AND manage to place the gunbarrel to the taut fabric with 2″ to 4″ of airspace between shirts and skin — ending up with a horizontal bullet trajectory.
Yes, wet grass should have been on both – both were on grass at some point with lots of fury.
How did GZ's blood drain from the back of his head towards his ears?
Many mysteries yet to unfold!!!
UPDATE 3: Here's a link to the <a href="Here's a link to the cousin's interview about the alleged molestation.
Warning: This is very graphic and it went on for many years.
UPDATE 2: Witness 9's statement has been released.
Copy and paste this link into your browser
http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15530478/data/1/-/1471vv3z/-/Witness-9-statements.null
Witness 9 also accuses him of molesting her as a child from age 6 to 16.
She is his cousin.
Y'all might want to go to twitter and enter Zimmerman in the search box. This is going viral.
Comment Update: Apparently, Witness 9's interviews and 172 recorded jailhouse telephone calls were released by the prosecutor's office as Mark O'Mara was on the Seminole County Courthouse steps with a motion for a stay in his hands.
Zia says:
OMG…this is all about to explode. Very damaging statements from Witness 9. And fyi, I am loving this blog. Just found it an hour ago and I am reading every word and processing every theory.
Welcome to the blog.
Relevant — W9 contacted police two days after the shooting and well before the case made its way to the public eye. Zimmerman supporters will accuse W9 of seeking her 15 minutes of fame here, and her timing puts that to rest.
Her comments on the Zimmerman family's outlook on race will definitely harm Zimmerman as well. Martin was a black kid who dressed like a black kid, and the Zimmerman's don't like that. This is the first time in this case that I will admit that a racial element likely existed.
When asked why she came forward, she said:
"Because this is the first time in my life that I'm not afraid of him."
When asked to explain. she said she no longer had to worry about running into him.
Case#1 says:
The specificity is certainly damning.
The Good black, bad black prejudice is well known amongst AAs (or good minority versus bad versions of the minority) but I am not just a white jury member if they hear this will get it as racist.
Its indeed based on racism, but its a nuanced understand of racism that's not involving KKK members dressed in white sheets. A lot of Americans don't do nuance on race. You are either KKK or you are not. No scale of bigotry.
UPDATE: Mark O'Mara will be seeking a stay (delay) today of Judge Lester's order directing the release of Witness 9's statements to police and the release of the rest of his recorded jailhouse conversations.
Witness 9 reportedly said a lot of negative things about GZ, including that he is a racist.
Not sure if he's asking Judge Lester to stay his order pending the outcome of the motion to disqualify, or if he filed an appeal from Judge Lester's order and asked the Court of Appeals to stay the order pending the outcome of the appeal.
Not surprisingly, the prosecution will be filing a response objecting to the defendant's motion to disqualify Judge Lester.
Don't know when the disqualification issue will be decided, but I'm expecting Judge Lester to continue on as the judge in the case, unless he removes himself voluntarily.
I don't see that happening and I do not see a proper legal basis to remove him.
I think the only thing the defense will accomplish with this motion is to drive up the level of pain, mostly their pain.
So if its the later, it would seem that a lot of this is damage control so that they continue to grandstand for the public.
Yep. I'd say you're right, counselor.
Hi Patricia. Sorry, it doesn't work for me. You would never needlessly approach a 'suspect,' especially a combative suspect, grab his shirt with one hand while brandishing a handgun in the other, and leaving both of his hands free to counter your gun hand. IOW, you would never intentionally place yourself in a position that would allow a suspect to gain access to your weapon, and certainly not for 40 seconds.
A lot can happen in 40 seconds; a lot did happen in 40 seconds. Some estimate closer to 60 seconds. Why would Zimmerman wait 40 seconds to pull the trigger? Witnesses were emerging. And what was Martin doing with his hands for 40 seconds? I know what I'd be doing.
I think you have Martin kneeling with Zimmerman 'crouching' over him, and somehow managing to exert a downward pull on the hoodie from a stooped position, presumably without bumping heads. If I'm not mistaken GZ is listed at 5′ 9, Martin was 5′ 11. Hardly a monumental height disparity, Patricia.
And then we have witnesses who reported seeing one man atop the other, essentially in a quasi-full mount position. Witness #6 viewed the combatants in this configuration from close proximity. He even spoke to them, and in the reenactment video, GZ offered an accurate account what he heard this witness say about calling 911.
Do you believe GZ was actually standing, crouching over a kneeling TM about to execute him when this occurred? And would Zimmerman assume to consummate this execution knowing there was at least one witness about?
I'm interested in the "slipping" concept because it may explain how 'they' eventually went to the ground. And I think Frederick's analysis of the bullet hole/wound juxtaposition is absolutely fascinating. I would be amazed if we don't here more about this in the days to come. However it only works, for me that is, if Martin was in the superior position on the ground.
I think Zimmerman's account of firing from his back is another element of reality which he seamlessly melds with fantasy to fortify his claim of legitimate self defense. He displays a unique capacity for this behavior; and it's also his undoing.
I'm wondering if forensics can produce grass stain evidence which might serve to corroborate, or disprove Zimmerman's account of sliding around on his back. Who's clothing shows more staining and where? Back, butt and knee areas. That kinda thing.
In reading this post, I can agree that Martin wa in the "superior" position on the ground. However it is my opinion that he gained that position as GZ grabbed his sweatshirt, TM punched the crap out of him, GZ (caught off guard) fell backwards, still clutching the sweatshirt thus pulling TM down on top of him and bashing his head on the ground. That's where I believe the screaming started. It is also my belief that the only reason GZ wa able to reach his gun is because TM was focused on getting away and retreating home, not fighting with GZ.
I'm assuming when you say "bashing his head on the ground" means GZ's head.
But TM's body was found 5 ft. from the dogwalk. GZ claimed he scooted forward from where his head was bashed – but he did not scoot 5 ft. – said it was just to get his head off the concrete.
TM could not move after death – heart pulverized by the hollow-point and lungs collapsed. I agree that the shirt was grabbed before GZ fired, that it was pulled DOWN and AWAY (2″ to 4″ per forensics) from TM's body.
The problem I have is the autopsy report of the TRAJECTORY of the bullet: straight in, horizontal.
If GZ is on the ground and TM is in the "mounted position" straddling GZ, but GZ has a grasp of TM's sweatshirts (there were two; hole locations matched), and TM is rearing back, how is GZ able to angle his gun barrel, directly in contact with the shirt(s) and fire so that the shot is horizntal?
Face-to-face is needed. If GZ is under, TM would have to be doing pushups so GZ could snake his hand and gun under TM's torso, with the gun PERPENDICULAR to TM's torso, to fire the bullet into TM's heart.
It's a snub barrel, but you would need at least 8″ separation – GZ's fist (wrist would need to be severely bent to accomplish this), gun, plus 2″ to 4″ air space.
GZ said he "aimed." GZ also said he was surprised he didn't shoot his other hand, and I can see that, because he had grabbed the shirt and was holding it, stretched down and away from TM's body, and that GZ PRECISELY place the barrel of the gun in position on the shirt for the shot that would destroy TM's heart.
GZ made a decision to shoot. Putting aside the "why" I want to know how that shot was accomplished. What was the position of the victim, and what was the position of the killer – that resulted in the trajectory established by autopsy?
When we know that, we can work backwards through the struggle. Because of the pulled sweatshirts, TM had to be pulling back away from GZ's grasp at the time the gun was placed and the trigger pulled.
I would sure welcome input as to how GZ could do this while lying flat, with TM above.
Yes, they grappled on the ground. But I think TM, on top, escaped (GZ was not holding on to his shirt at that time) but it was brief – TM slipped, and GZ scrambled to get him. GZ pulled TM part way up , with TM's knees still on the ground, or possible GZ pulled him all the way up – by grabbing TM's shirts. TM placed the gunbarrel against the shirt surface, and fired.
TM fell forward, dead, arms under his body.
That's the way they found him.
RiseFromBelow says:
If you watch the 711 video you can see that Trayvon's hoodie was very loose fitting. There would easily be a gap of several inches between it and his chest just by him being bent forward slightly. Besides, when someone is on top of you you don't grab their shirt to keep them on top of you.
mentlegen says:
I agree, and you wouldn't hold on for 40 seconds if you were that hell bent on killing someone.
(1) The problem is to explain the nature of the physical evidence with a narrative that would be consistent with all of physical evidence.
As the Professor has pointed out, the issue is the alignment, but this is only one piece of physical evidence.
For example, while GZ's physical wounds are consistent with he was attacked, its not consistent with repeatedly having his head beaten against a side walk.
If you want to understand the problem of circumstantial evidence and creating a consistent narrative for the defense in this case, go read markfromireland's response to Professor Leatherman's article here:
http://my.firedoglake.com/mason/2012/07/15/was-trayvon-martin-attempting-to-get-away-when-george-zimmerman-killed-him/#comments
(2) Also, it is more likely that this started with GZ attempting to detain TM, but it got out of hand, rather than he went into the situation expecting to kill Martin.
Yes, I agree with your comment, but especially want to stress Number 2.
I think GZ lost his temper when TM started hitting him with his cell phone and I think he killed him in a rage reaction, as he was gripping his sweatshirts to keep him from getting away.
When I speak of narrative (or telling a story) with the circumstantial evidence or physical evidence, I mean that this is as Mark says in that thread an issue of cumulation of evidence and what each is consistent with. That's why as I have read so many cases are convictions based on circumstantial evidence. You explain each piece of evidence with something that's not consistent (or improbable) but what is the answer after cumulation? That's the problem the defense faces. Reasonable doubt doesn't mean you get to keep atomizing the evidence and look at each piece as if its not a part of a larger body of physical evidence. From what I keep reading, the GZ defenders keep looking to (1) find a smoking gun from those who believe he may be guilty here (which is not likely to happen), but is not necessary because a cumulation of evidence can be more damning than a smoking gun (2) deny any evidence inconsistent with GZ's claims rather than using that evidence to determine what the narrative was that night. That's a problem for the defense the way I see it if they bring in an impartial jury not vested in either the prosecution or defense's arguments.
You are missing the main point.
The point is the bullet holes in the sweatshirts align with each other, but not with the entry wound, which is at least 3 1/2 inches below the location of the holes in the sweatshirts.
The sweatshirts must have been pulled down at the time of the fatal shot for all three holes to align.
The gap between the sweatshirts and his chest is an additional fact that probably indicates TM also was attempting to back away.
By the way, loose clothing generally hangs loosely against the skin, unless pulled away. Might be possible to get a 2-4 inch gap by leaning forward, but not the downward displacement so that all three holes align.
RebeccaB70 (@RebeccaB70) says:
The problem I have with the loose fitting clothing is that if you lean forward and someone is shooting you from below the hole in the clothing is going to be lower than where the shot ended up not higher because the bottom of the clothing is going to 'bag' out.
The other thing I've wondered about with GZ's account is he's at the T, he's facing TM then he gets punched but TM is right handed, he's not going to lead with his left. So the damage should be on the left side of GZ's nose, not the right. If he had caused damage on the left I would think (having experience in swinging at someone myself) that he would've got more of his eyebrow and forehead on the left taking into account height difference and that when people swing your fist goes upwards. Unless you bunny punch of course. However, with a bunny punch I'd go back to the damage should've been on the left side of his face.
The two holes in the sweatshirts are located in the upper chest area above the armpit and several inches above the nipple. The entry wound is below the nipple.
The only way to align those three holes is to pull the sweatshirt down and the only way to get the 2-4 inch separation between the fabric and the skin is to pull the sweatshirt out or for the person wearing the sweatshirt to lean back.
I think we're saying the same thing, aren't we.
Also, I agree with what you said about the punch.
Fredrick, I'm not getting a reply button on what you said for some reason. Yes we're saying the same thing about the shirts.
masonblue says:
I thought so.
Doesn't matter which hand GZ held the gun, and which hand grasped the fistful of sweatshirts.
Steadying the barrel to the taut fabric kept GZ from shooting his own hand, barely centimeters away.
Did the lab check for GZ's DNA on TM's sweatshirt?
Of course, if he had used a "proper two handed grip"
he would have to let go the shirt, and – let Trayvon escape.
Looks like GZ hunted down TM,
detained him by holding onto TM's sweatshirts
(the 2″ to 4″ gap between shirt and torso would prove this),
then executed an unarmed prisoner.
Hmmm … what college was GZ studying criminolgy at?
Well, at least he didn't shoot himself in the process.
You get points for that?
Any GZ fans out there who can explain the gap between shirt and torso? The lab results and residue?
No matter what happened before the shot,
I think that 2″ to 4″ gap is what will put George away.
Thanks, Professor!
You be welcome.
Know what?
I'd be willing to bet the defense doesn't even see this train coming down the track..
Elizabeth, I may have seen more bar fights than you have.
There is no question in my mind that there was an on-the ground wrangling between the two a minute earlier, with TM cracking the cellphone on GZ's head and nose (although GZ may have crashed his nose on the cement dog walk when he fell), at the time of the first (and likely only) exchange of words.
I believe that was the ONLY on-the-ground clutch, and that GZ is trying to say this went on FOR YARDS, like two snakes mating.
GZ wants to claim he managed to get his gun out of his holster despite the weight of TM's body on it, and using his weaker hand/arm.
I believe TM escaped that first grappling, but fell while running, losing his plastic bag and cellphone in the fall, and that GZ was able to catch up with him.
Back to the barroom fights. If the top guy is kneeling astride the bottom guy, pinning him down, and the bottom guy doesn't want to let the top guy get away, instinct makes the bottom guy wrap his legs up around the top guy's lower legs (which are parallel to the ground), effectivel immobilizing him. GZ did not want to lose TM. But he did – in the first fumble.
That's where TM struck GZ with the cellphone, momentarily making GZ lose control of his victim..
After he escaped and fell,TM no longer had his "hard object" weapon (cell phone) to defend himself in these last 40 seconds. He had lost it in the fall. GZ had abandoned his service flashlight and got his gun out. GZ caught up to TM as TM was struggling to get up, GZ grabbed a fistful of TM's sweatshirts and yanked him to his knees. Seeing the gun in GZ's hand, TM started screaming.
Likely GZ carried his gun in his dominant hand (left). That only gave GZ his weaker hand (right) to grab TM by the sweatshirt – and that would be OVER TM's left side, where TM's heart is, because GZ would be FACING his victim.
That is why GZ said he was careful not to shoot his OWN hand, which was barely inches away from the target.
GZ did that safely by placing the end of the barrel right on the sweatshirt. This steadied his left (gun-holding) hand so it did not shake and accidentally shoot GZ's right hand clutching the fabric just an inch or so away..
TM would then fall forward on his face with his hands underneath him (as the officers found him) as George scrambled out of the way, them climbed on TM's back to frisk "this suspect" for weapons.
But, there were none …..
I think you're really getting close to what really happened.
I think that none of you have a clue what really happened.
The 911 tapes and the cell phone records of TM's girl friend indicate that the time between the initial exchange of words and the fatal gunshot was less than one minute. I'm not seeing the necessary time to "snake" north and south, east and west as you guys are speculating.
I'm not getting how you speculate that TM hit GZ in the face with his cell phone. TM had a cut on his ring finger, most likely caused by TM punching GZ in the nose.
Why would there be gunpowder residue on the skin if there were two layers of clothing between the end of the gun barrel and TM's chest? Explain to me how the coroner could determine contact range vs intermediate range when just inspecting the wound for gunpowder and gunpowder burns and not the clothing as well?
In order for the "pulling away" theory to work GZ and TM would have had to be positioned in such away that GZ was pulling UP on TM's shirt. There is absolutely no evidence that GZ was standing over TM.
By the way, CCW training requires that you learn how to shoot with both hands and practice doing it.
You said,
No one is talking about snaking.
A little over 3 minutes between the time GZ hung up and when he fired the fatal shot.
The only injury to TM's hands is a small cut on the underside of his ring finger in the fleshy area where a ring normally would be worn. He wasn't wearing a ring. He had no injuries to his knuckles.
The only DNA on his fingernail cuttings was his own DNA.
The two small cuts on the back of GZ's head were not caused by his head striking the sidewalk. He was hit with an object. The only object TM had was his cell phone.
The Assistant Medical Examiner found unburned gunpowder surrounding the entry wound. It's in the autopsy report. Read it.
Based on the nature of the entry wound and the presence of the unburned gunpowder, he said the shot was fired from an "intermediate range." ME's estimate the distance shots were fired from all the time with gunshot wounds. It's part of their job.
The laboratory analyst at the crime lab who examined the clothing concluded that the muzzle of the gun was against the clothing when the fatal shot was fired, due to the tearing of the cloth caused by the exploding gas.
Nope. The holes in TM's sweatshirts align with each other, but not the entry wound. For all three to align, the sweatshirts would have to have been gripped together and pulled down and away from TM's body or he was attempting to back away.
You've got it all wrong.
For some reason I could not reply to your reply, so I am replying to this again.
The police report indicates that GZ suffered from a bloody nose, cuts to the back of the head and an abrasion to his forehead. The only other injury to TM, besides the gunshot wound, was the small cut on his ring finger. I never said that TM was wearing a ring. You just tossed that in.
I do not believe GZ's statement that his head was repeatedly struck against the pavement. Both the lack of severity of his injuries and and his apparent congnizant ability to draw his gun and shoot belie that part of his statement. However, the evidence is consistent with GZ being on the receiving end of a punch in the nose from TM and falling backward to the ground, as he stated. If TM had used his cell phone to clobber GZ on the back of his head, then either GZ was lying face down on the ground or TM attacked GZ with his cell phone from behind. The is no evidence to support that speculation.
"It (the entrance wound) consisits of a 3/8 inch diameter round entrance defect with soot, ring abrasion, and a 2 X 2 inch area of stippling. This wound is consistent with a wound of entrance of intermediate range."
Perhaps I did not make myself clear by not using the absolute perfect terminology. When I used the words "gunshot residue" I was trying to refer to what is technically called "fouling" found in the tissue of close contact gunshot wounds.
This was not a contact shot to the head. It had to pass through two layers of clothing. A wound inspection by the coroner would not see the same level of wound "fouling" created by a gunshot to the head as he would see with a gunshot passing through two layers of clothing before reaching skin. How much of the fouling that would normally be associated with a contact range gunshot directly to the skin not make it to the actual entrance wound because of the clothing between the muzzle and the wound? You all are speculating that the only reason for the lack of observed wound "fouling" found by the coroner was about 6 inches of air between TM's garments and his chest.
The holes to the outer garments were found to be about 7 inches down from the neckline seam. The entry wound was measured at 1/2 inch below the left nipple, 1 inch to the left of midline. That's about 5 inches below the neckline seam if the outer garments were hanging normally. That indicates that the holes in TM's outer garments were about 2 inches lower down on his outer garments than they would be if his garments were hanging normally. If GZ was pulling down on TM's outer garments, the holes would have been closer to the neckline seam than the entry wound, not further down. This evidence indicates that TM's outer garments rose up on his torso, not down.
Now comes the question of what exactly happened after GZ was down on the ground lying on his back. All there is on this is conflicting eyewitness testimony. Some say TM was on top of GZ. If so there is no eyewitness testimony of just how TM was positioned on top of GZ. You all speculate that TM was sitting on top of GZ's stomach. It could have been lower on his body, down around his thighs, thus making the gun in GZ's waistband accessible to both GZ and TM and could have been exposed if GZ's shirt had ridden up as GZ stated it did. However, in this situation TM is in the dominant position and therefore I do not believe that in a "race" for the gun, that GZ would have won that race. Even if GZ did manage to win that race, the normal reaction from TM would be to either grab for the gun barrel or GZ's wrist likely preventing the clean shot to the chest that GZ apparently managed to squeeze off. So I don't believe that part of GZ's statement either.
What you are doing is trying to fit your personal pre-judgement that Zimmerman is guilty as charged with the evidence via speculation. You have no idea what is right or wrong. And neither do I. And I doubt that we will ever know how it actually went down. This will come down to the credibility of the prosecution's suppositions presented at trial vs Zimmerman's public statements. And I would suspect that the prosecution's suppositions will be far more credible than yours. I still have a lot of unanswered questions that are likely to come out in trial, so I will not speculate on the outcome. Anything is possible, acquital, conviction on a lesser included crime, such as voluntary or involuntary manslaughter, or conviction as charged or even a mistrial.
I never said that TM was wearing a ring. You just tossed that in.
I never said you said anything about a ring. I mentioned a ring to demonstrate where the wound was located. That is, the wound was located in the fleshy part of the underside of the ring finger where a ring normally would be worn, except he doesn't wear a ring. The wound was not located on the top side of the finger in the knuckle area.
I do not believe GZ's statement that his head was repeatedly struck against the pavement. Both the lack of severity of his injuries and and his apparent congnizant ability to draw his gun and shoot belie that part of his statement.
However, the evidence is consistent with GZ being on the receiving end of a punch in the nose from TM and falling backward to the ground, as he stated.
Take a look at photos 1, 3, 6, 8, 9, and 10. I do not see any swelling on his nose and I do not believe it is broken. I am not convinced that he even suffered an injury to his nose during his encounter with TM, but if he did, it's very minor. Therefore, it's also consistent with a lot of other causes, including running into a tree in the dark. or it might have happened at some other time in some other place.
If TM had used his cell phone to clobber GZ on the back of his head, then either GZ was lying face down on the ground or TM attacked GZ with his cell phone from behind. The is no evidence to support that speculation.
There are other possibilities. For example, GZ could have rushed TM and had him in a bear hug but not having pinned his arms, such that TM was able to reach around or over the top of GZ's head and strike the upper back part of his head while gripping the cell phone.
I am familiar with fouling.
I assume you meant to type "chest."
I am not speculating. The SME said the shot was fired from intermediate range and the laboratory analyst reported that the muzzle was in contact with the fabric of the sweatshirt when the fatal shot was fired.
Starring was present as the gases ripped and tore the fabric.
Since the AME removed the clothing from the body prior to the autopsy, he had an opportunity to examine it before bagging it and sending it on to the lab for analysis and testing.
I am not saying you are wrong. I'm just going on the basis of the reports while you appear to be assuming something that is not in the reports.
I do not agree. The 7 inch measurement runs from the point where the shoulder and neck seams come together. Seven inches down from there is a good 3 inches above the entry wound. Therefore, sweatshirts would have to have been pulled down to align with the entry wound. I know because I measured the distances.
You all speculate that TM was sitting on top of GZ's stomach. It could have been lower on his body, down around his thighs, thus making the gun in GZ's waistband accessible to both GZ and TM and could have been exposed if GZ's shirt had ridden up as GZ stated it did. However, in this situation TM is in the dominant position and therefore I do not believe that in a "race" for the gun, that GZ would have won that race. Even if GZ did manage to win that race, the normal reaction from TM would be to either grab for the gun barrel or GZ's wrist likely preventing the clean shot to the chest that GZ apparently managed to squeeze off. So I don't believe that part of GZ's statement either.
You did not read very carefully because ee did not speculate that TM was sitting on top of GZ.
That was GZ's story. We simply checked out what he claimed to have happened and discovered that his story is not credible.
Disagree with your opinions. I am not trying to pound square pegs into round holes. I am trying to get at the truth.
Patricia, we may be somewhat in the same field, as I have this
vision IF I go along with GZ stating TM was on top, as Trayvon pulled back to get up and leave, GZ had ahold of his sweat which would have given him enough pull, considering Trayvon's resistance he needed to get up or partially up to his feet. It appears to be a process in action during which the shot was fired. I can also accept that if the force of the shot was strong enough it could have caused Trayvon to fling backward with his arms spread. Instead of grasping his chest and falling forward. Sounds like I am continuously crossing myself up but more and more thoughts and facts come forward leading in different directions. I do believe Trayvon called for help as he saw the gun in the hand of his assailant, and couldn't break loose from being held on to by GZ.
Elizabeth, Zimmerman's re-enactment for Sanford PD the next day included a ludicrous demonstration of GZ wiggling his right arm
w-a-a-y up and then down to reach his holster clipped inside his right-side waistband.
He did not explain how he could snake his arm under TM's crotch and 155 lb. body weight that was straddling GZ's waist that would have kept GZ weighted to the ground to reach that holster in the final moments before the shot – if it were true, as GZ stated, TM was on top before the shot, and GZ imprisoned below.
That is just one of the reasons I believe they were separated at the time of the fatal shot: TM on his knees attempting to push himself up from his fall and hoping to escape, GZ crouching by him, with a fistful of TM's sweatshirts in his grasp – expecting the cops to arrive and congratulate GZ.
TM would be immobilized in that position, but may have been lashing about with his arms, trying to get GZ away, but on his knees, TM would have little power.
Yelling going on.
I can see GZ showing his weaon, hoping to intimidate TM to "shut the fuck up" which would only terrify TM further.
TM starts screaming.
GZ, fearing he might lose his trophy catch, fearing he'll be laughed at by the cops when they find hapless GZ with no "suspect," and enraged by the injuries TM inflicted on him earlier (and forgetting the anger management course he was required to take a few years back)solves his "problem" by firing into TM's upright torso, through the stretched-out sweatshirts. TM falls forward, silent and dead.
Sanford PD kept George's clothes.
No gunshot residue fund on GZ's shirt, as I recall.
Did they check the front of his pants?
Wouldn't hurt …
Hi guys.
Zimmerman had to demonstrate this impossible contortion to support his allegation that Martin was reaching for his weapon. Zimmerman claims he trapped Martin's hand trapped between his ribcage & upper right arm, while simultaneously drawing his weapon with his right hand. The absurdity of this claim should be painfully obvious to anyone who watched the reenactment video. I doubt this was lost on the SPD investigators.
1 – Martin launched an unprovoked physical assault.
2 – Martin was slamming his head into a concrete walkway.
3 – He believed Martin was striking him with some type of weapon.
4 – Martin issued a felony death threat (Yer gonna die tonight MF'er!).
5 – Martin was reaching for Zimmerman's weapon.
SYG immunity requires a reasonable belief that Martin intended to inflict serious bodily harm or death, and it would appear that Zimmerman had sufficient [legal] knowledge cover all the bases. The problem is, he constructed a defensive narrative by splicing together a series of highly improbable events; events that don't necessarily align with the evidence, or with reason.
I'm almost convinced that initial contact was made near the location of Zimmerman's keychain/flashlight, resulting in a stand-up struggle with Zimmerman attempting to detain Martin, as Martin resisted in the direction of his father's residence. We have multiple witnesses that report hearing loud voices and scuffling beginning near the T and progressing south. I don't think the gun was introduced until they were on the ground. Zimmerman's black tactical flashlight was found on the grass close to the dog walk at the location of the ground fight. That leaves him with one open hand to clutch Martin/ Martin's clothing as they scuffled from the T area to ground fall. He'd need a third hand to brandish a firearm. During the north to south migration, Zimmerman may have been absorbing punishment from Martin's cell phone. And in agreement with Patricia, it's very likely that Martin ultimately 'slipped' on the grass with 200 lbs of GZ in tow.
Zimmerman's Tactical Flashlight at the 19 sec marker:
I discount the idea that TM broke-free, slipped, fell to the ground, and was mounted by an encroaching GZ. Even an untrained neighborhood watch captain would avoid making physical contact with a 'suspect' while in possession of firearm. It's counter-intuitive, beyond risky, and totally unnecessary. When you consider that even arm's length leaves you vulnerable to a sudden lurch from a suspect, why would anyone initiate a ground fight under these circumstances? You have a gun.
Witness #6 had the best POV. He places Martin in the dominant position. He describes watching the figures migrate from the grass, towards the dog walk. Implying that their heads were either near, or on the edge of the concrete. By the time he makes it upstairs and peeks out of his window, the fight had shifted back in the direction of his townhouse where Martin's body was laying with his head approximately 5′ – 6′ from the edge of the dog walk. That may seem like a lot of movement, but not at all inconsistent with the dynamics of a serious street fight. Consider the adrenaline dump these men were experiencing.
In my opinion, it is well within the realm of possibility that GZ created enough space to draw his weapon while rolling, heaving, and bucking from the bottom position. It only takes a second.
"Zimmerman claims he trapped Martin's hand trapped between his ribcage & upper right arm, while simultaneously drawing his weapon with his right hand."
Should read: Zimmerman claims he had Martin's hand trapped between his ribcage & right upper arm.
"it would appear that Zimmerman had sufficient [legal] knowledge cover all the bases."
Should read: "to" cover all the bases.
Sorry folks.
there was no adrenaline dump in zimmerman, his body responses were remarkably normal when examined by emts on the scene, i saw no signs of physical exertion on zimmerman's clothing nor his demeanor remarkably calm and NEAT, shirttail tucked in nicely even…. a witness mentioned how calm and nonchalant he was in the minutes after……and there are NO signs of a physical struggle on martins body no offensive or defensive marks……i doubt one punch was throw by either, the last 45 seconds is on tape(911 call) and no physical fighting was going on then…..I think zimmerman did try to detain him(possibly where the flashlight was found OR zimmerman could have thrown the flashlight back to there after the shot) and martin did try to escape and somehow martin fell to the ground and zimmerman calmly took his weapon out took careful close aim and fired…….clear second degree murder and with info coming out about being tipped and others possibly involved could well have been 1st degree…it took a depraved mind to convict martin of criminal activity based on walking in the rain, zimmerman observed nothing UNusual in martins behavior i assure you.
Michael, GZ hopes you believe he shot TM "in the clinch" because it would validate GZ's claim that he killed TM in self-defense because TM was beating on him, thus causing GZ great bodily harm, so, GZ killed TM and claimed, voila! that he, GZ, was "standing his ground" because he couldn't escape from TM who was on top of him.
So tell me – how did GZ convince TM to hold out his sweatshirt/hoodie 2″ to 4″ away from TM's torso, so GZ could position the barrel flush against the fabric, so the hollow-point passed through that void before breaking into TM's body and exploding TM's heart and collapsing TM's lungs?
GZ has supplied some real B-movie dialog in this whole tragic incident, so in case his creativity is running out, let me offer this in-the-clinch conversation::
GZ, "Hey, homie, it's gettin'; hot & sweaty right here, so how about holding out your hoodie away from your righteous body & lettin' a little air in there?"
TM: "Right, officer! You criminology near-graduates sure got some great ideas for comfort, Bro!" (Holds both undershirt and hoodie 2″ – 4″ away from his torso.) "How about this, sir?" (Or maybe, in the spirit of brotherhood, offers, "How about this, mother-fucker?")
GZ: BAM!
GZ: (after a pause) "Geez, and I didn't even shoot my own hand!"
Michael, the killer issue – no pun here – is that SOMEBODY was holding that shirt way away from Trayvon Martin's torso when George Zimmerman shot him – and it was George Zimmerman who said he, himself, fired the shot into Trayvon Martin..
Who had an interest in detaining TM?
With one hand on his gun, how could GZ prevent TM from escaping?
By GZ grabbing on to TM's shirt.
Who shot TM?
GZ said he shot TM.
TM fell face-forward because GZ was pulling on the front of TM's shirt against TM trying to break free.
GZ's bullet trajectory: straight in.
GZ had to face TM straight on for that trajectory. Had to be reasonably face-to face. with GZ's shooting hand and gunbarrel perpendicular to TM's torso. Lab report has barrel contact with the shirt fabric, not TM's skin.
There was a last-minute breakout by TM but TM slipped, fell and GZ got to him in time to yank him up to his knees – by grabbing the front of his shirts: 2 layers, both held together 2″ – 4″ away from TM's torso, according to forensics.
GZ, crouching with head sloped down – to "aim" (his word) his gun directly at TM's heart by pressing barrel to fabric — and thus allowing the blood from the cuts on the back of GZ's head to trickle forward, toward and past his ear, and coagulate in place for the neighbor's photo minutes later.
Ya' can't fool Mother Forensics, Michael.
GZ tried. Terrible dialog, but he tried.
Ain't gonna work for him.
With an honorable jury, it's 25 years, at least.
Three things about this video strike me.
1.GZ has a LOT of small, painful-looking (but far from life threatening) cuts all over his face and head.
2.Trayvon's cellphone (small and delicate with smooth rounded edges–and apparently undamaged) does not seem like it would be capable of producing these injuries.
3.The tactical flashlight, also found near Trayvon's body would be VERY capable of doing all this damage. (For those not familiar with tactical flashlights, these are small, high powered flashlights with extremely bright LED lamps and a thick, heavy body made of machined aluminum, typically with square. unrounded edges around the lens. They are typically around 4-6 inches long.)
Are we certain that this flashlight belonged to GZ? Has it been tested for fingerprints, blood and/or DNA?
How likely is it that George Zimmerman being "Left-handed"
would carry his gun on his right side, as he demonstrated reaching across with his left hand to his right side for his gun? To have such a straight on shot as I am gathering, having pulled his gun out with his left hand seems to direct more to there being quite a slant on the bullet entry. I wish we (audience) could present some drawings of what we speak of on this blog, would be better understood to see than try and comprehend from words sometimes.
I'm thinking that drawings could be digitally photographed and uploaded to flickr — you would have to create an account, if you don't have one.
They are free.
Then you just enter the web address for your photo in your comment and we can open it in a new window and read your comment while we look at your diagram.
It's commonplace for lefthanded people to learn to shoot righthanded, mainly because most guns are designed to be used that way. Semiautomatic pistols, for instance, eject the fired cartridge case to the right. They also have various controls (safety lever, slide stop, magazine release etc.) on the left side where they can be efficiently operated either with the right thumb or the left hand. Since Zimmerman wore his holster inside the pants on the right side with the butt of the gun to the rear it is reasonable to conclude that he normally shoots righthanded.
In other words, he did not have to flip the gun around in his hand to shoot it, after grabbing it with his right hand?
He just had to avoid shooting his other hand with it./s
(I still can't believe he said that. I think that may be worse than inadvertently admitting he aimed the gun.)
Cross examining him will be about as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.
Well, but remember the game each time he makes such error is to claim, at least according to his defenders, that it was a mistake, faulty memory, etc. Its true that all these mistakes seem to end up with him producing a story that helps his defense, but I can see him and his lawyer making the argument that he was poor, scared and defenseless GZ. We are seeing, I believe, in the pre-trial round part of the defense's strategy as far as creating a narrative of a guy out of his depths who was "too trusting" and he didn't think about what he was saying and his inconsistencies were harmless and unintended. Here- it was just a mistake on his part about what happened that night because he was still foggy from the attack.
I agree with your analysis.
They don't have any other way to deal with all of those problems, however, he was offered opportunities to seek medical assistance and follow-up, but he turned them down, except for the family physician the next morning so that he could get permission "to return to work."
Diagnosis: no head trauma.
His injuries were relatively minor so there won't be any legitimate medical support for the I-was-confused defense. They might get a forensic whore or two to lie for money, but the prosecution should be able to expose them for what they are, if they know what they are doing and their experts know their stuff.
Also, as we've discussed, it doesn't take very long for credibility to crash when you are constantly on the defensive explaining stuff.
The defense is going to want to identify and get rid of all prospective jurors who have sustained similar wounds to GZ, or treated them, because they will never buy what the defense is selling.
Right. And if he'd used a proper two-handed grip on the gun there would have been no chance of shooting himelf in the hand.
I think this sums up how they will try to avoid explaining all the inconsitencies and mistakes he made pre-trial
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/7/13/52419/3858
The poor guy is being ganged up on by forces trying to railroad him into prison.
Whether its Judge Lester, or "pressure" described in the Talk Left article, etc
it seems all designed to create the narrative – even at the bond hearing – of a guy who is just out of depths and the system is against him and wants to convict him
I think they are setting up a narrative to convince people to ignore all the problems in favor of 'its the system" trying to railroad this guy!
Thanks for the info on the sweatshirts vis-a-vis TM's fatal bullet wound.
More information needed: size of TM's two sweatshirts and fabric content (Cotton? Cotton & poly?) to establish stretchibility.
Tight-fit or loose?
However both fabrics performed at the time of the gunshot, evidence proves fabric was pulled away from TM's body and only explanation for pulled-from-the front would be a grab&hold by GZ.
(leaving the air gap of 2″ to 4″ between fabric and TM's torso at point of bullet entry.)
But if GZ is flat on his back, under restraint of TM straddling him (as GZ claimed, GZ has no area underneath himself to pull back his elbow. Closest he could bring TM forward (in position for the fatal shot) would be for GZ to have grabbed the two layers of fabric and pressed them close to his own (GZ's) chest.
That would not leave a whole lot of room for GZ to "aim" (his word) his gun and shoot. Where was the residue/spatter on GZ's clothing?
Per GZ's own re-enactment of the shot (using his right hand) the pulling-on-the-sweatshirts arm would have to be GZ's left (his dominant arm).
GZ is left-handed, as he stated to the officers when signing his initial statement. We see him writing left-handed. We do not know if he shoots ambidextrously.
GZ re-enacted the shooting with his right hand (but did not show any movement that would get the gun butt and trigger into the correct position for firing.) In light of GZ's comments about being careful not to shoot his other hand, it is strange that he made no comment about resolving the challenge of getting the upside-down weapon into firing position.
GZ's left hand was busy holding onto TM's shirts. How did he flip around his gun in his right hand alone, to make it operational? (Yet another conflict here, between GZ's words and evidence.)
GZ wears his holster clipped INside his waistband, on his right side. (Cross-draw postion for a lefty, indicating his preference is to shoot with his dominant hand..) He claims that he withdrew his gun from the holster with his right hand at the next to-last-moment – the last moment being when he "aimed" – his word – his gun.
(On video, demonstrating for the investigator, GZ performing a strained and contorted move by his right arm, to get down into the right-side mounted holster).
TM was shot from the front. Could the force of GZ's bullet really cause him to fall backward? Any possibility of some immedtate post-shot convulsion that could flip him over and place hs hands under him?
(Hard to fathom, with the heart's ability to pump blood, blown away.)
Reports are that TM's body was found face-down with his hands under his body. But was that the placement of the body when arriving officers found it? Officers attempted resuscitation. Did they turn TM over, try to resuscitate, then turn him back over, returning TM to the way they found him? Or was the body found in a different position? Any reports on this?
My understanding is that TM's body was found feet towards the back porch of the condos, head towards concrete dog walk. Looks like a 5 ft. or so separation between TM and dog walk. Can you confirm correct distance?
The story of GZ and TM in a fatal straddle at the time of gunshot (whether it's TM or GZ on top is under conjecture), as GZ describes, seems to have a permanent lock on 99% of the minds who are writing here.
I do agree that GZ hopped onto TM's DEAD body after he shot him as GZ claimed (although not for the motivation GZ claims).
I believe that is what witnesses saw on that dark, rainy night.
BUT I cannot believe TM/GZ in a fatal straddle before the shot.
I am still of the belief that:
(a) There was no 60 ft. hand-to-hand grappling fight on the ground starting at the "T" of the dog walk.
(b) TM did not loom "out of the bushes" as GM claimed. In the entire dogwalk area the scrubby bushes are no taller than 3 ft.
(b) There was an initial knock-down (well away from the T-intersection) immediately after the first verbal exchange of "Why are you following me?" (TM) and "What are you doing here?" with DeeDee then reporting "Get off! Get off!)
(c) GZ had his gun unholstered at that time, but in his left pocket, and not displayed.
(d) GZ grabbed at TM's hoodie when he said "What are you doing here" to restrain him for the en-route cops; TM lashed out with his only "blunt object." his cellphone, which inflicted GZ's minor (but bloody) injuries; they fell (possibly with GM hitting the dog walk); as GM held his hands to his head, he relinquished his grasp of TM's hoodie.
(e) TM escaped, ran towards his father's fiancee's home (his only refuge) but shortly slipped on the wet grass and cellphone bounced from his hand on TM's contact with the ground..
(f) as TM started running, GZ, got up, ran in pursuit, now with gun in hand – caught up with TM where TM fell, as TM was starting to push himself up off the grass, TM hoping to continue his run to safety;
(g) GZ grabbed TM by his clothing while TM was trying to get up.
TM was never able to get up – GZ, in a crouch, was holding him at bay and looming over him.
(h) GZ brings the gun into view (expecting to subdue TM by its sight.)
(i) TM sees the gun wielded by this "crazy, creepy" assailant.; TM starts screaming for help; GZ yells "Shut the fuck up." (this quote GZ attributed to TM). GZ is leaning over TM as the blood trickles into the congealed configuration on GZ's head, shown on the neighbor's photo;
(j) GM, still holding TM by a fistfull of sweatshirts (the fistful itself would take up some of the fabric slack) "aims" IGZ's own word) and fires – careful not to shoot his own hand, careful to sight on what GZ hopes is the fatal bullseye. It is. GZ had pressed the end of the gun barrel against TM's taut sweatshirt in his best estimate of where TM's heart would be.
(k) There is a 2″ to 4″ air gap between sweatshirt and TM torso, caused by GZ pulling on TM's sweatsirts, extending fabric away from skin. Hollow-point enters TM's heart, destroying it; TM's lungs collapse; screams cease immediately after gunshot.
(l) Because TM's knees are still on the ground, mortally-wounded TM falls forward, his arms under his body. GZ's forward-pulling pressure is still exerted on TM's sweatshirt at the time the gun is fired (per evidence) which further propels TM's lifeless body forward. Undoubtedly GZ opens his grasp immediately after firing, and jumps back, a nomal reaction. Gravity alone drops TMs dead body to the ground. Face forward, into the grass.
(m) GZ hops onto TM's body, extends TM's arms into Y (per GZ statement); "frisks" TM for weapon (described by neighbor-witness) hoping to find justification that TM was an "armed suspect." No such luck for GZ (although his luck, admittedly, is a whole lot better than TM's)
(n) First neighbor takes photo of back of GZ's head. GZ coolly admits shooting TM, claims "Stand your ground." (Because he can't claim he heroically intercepted a criminal.)
(o) Sanford PD officers arrive,
(p) Police investigation starts …
I maintain that TM must have been on his knees, torso upright, shirts grabbed and extended by a crouching GZ, when GZ drilled TM in the heart and TM, kneeling, fell forward – the only direction the body could fall.
GZ still had pressure on TM's shirt during the shot, which would propel TM's body forward.
A kneeling TM (taller than GZ) and a stocky GZ crouching over TM in the dark of night could be enough of a low body mass to look like hand-to-hand grappling.
GZ hopping onto TM's body (as GZ stated) was the final action immediately after the shot. That final action by GZ was both witnessed, and reported by GZ.
Nobody was standing on their porch in the rain watching this action unfold.
The sweatshirt analysis is so significant! Thanks again to Professor Leatherman.
Now we await the analysis of TM's cellphone …
I think you've laid out an excellent theory for discussion.
arturovandelay says:
A good job of working out theoretical small details while totally ignoring any main points. Every one of those points for no reason assuming GZ is lying and in TM's favor. Could be, but i find it unlikely. It's fair to take sides, but own it, don't pretend you're looking for the truth. In court you aren't supposed to assume that whenever two theories conflict that you assume guilt. The burden of proof usually lies with the prosecution. (unless there are threats of riots, shooting, death threats, flash mobs etc so it seems)
There's no requirement you have to run away in your own neighborhood. In fact backing away slowly is safer than turning your back and running. Looks to me like major overcharging. Forced up the DA by public opinion, some of it actual racism. Tough to find any black folks even mentioning a fair trial much less supporting [GZ], who is painted as lily white to add even MORE racial difference into the equation. The day you can do 25 for getting out of your vehicle is the day criminals have won the street.
[Comment edited due to racial/ethnic slur]
I do not agree with your analysis.
I have analyzed what GZ said and, using his own words compared to his injuries and the forensic evidence, shown him to not be a credible person.
Regrettably, I am unable to do the same with TM, who did not make any statements because GZ killed him.
Deborah Garner-Moore says:
Excellent assessment Patricia!
rayvenwolf says:
As far as the gun goes – read the statement from Osterman, he says GZ told him after he brought him and Shellie to his home that he drew the gun rotated it and fired. This was before the re-enactment(that the air marshal went to as well)
TM'S body – yes that is how the officers found him on scene, no he wasn't rolled back over after being declared dead. He was left on his back at that point until the ME came to pick up his body at around 930.
OK, I go back to read and find the gunshot was 2-4 inches from his chest??? Is that absolute or assumed. I am sitting here pulling on my shirt which can be extended as much as 12-13 or more on a strained pull away from my body. GZ Holding on to Trayvon's shirt
while Trayvon is pulling back to get away from his grip could have brought GZ up and forward. Hand quite free for shooting.
The 2-4 inch distance is within the intermediate range and Dr. Vincent Di Maio, the former Bexar County Medical Examiner (San Antonio, TX) provided the 2-4 inch range based on reviewing the ME's Report of TM's death.
The only way to make sense of this and come up with any fact
is to totally disregard anything George Zimmerman has to say about position or how he used his hands, all that stuff. First eliminate all that could not possibly have happened, take what is feasible, then, using GZ's discriptions, see if any of them fit well enough to determine what is fact and what is not. I have the feeling Trayvon and GZ both were standing when the shot was fired. Now that the holding on is in consideration, possibly they both went down, Trayvon underneath, rolled, Trayvon trying to get up, pushing at GZ while GZ is holding on to Trayvon's shirt (s) this could have left enough distance between the two that GZ could have a straight on shot (at close range)
What I want to know is how much distance between the hole in the
sweatshirt and the skin where the bullet entered, If you pull on a loose sweatshirt (sometimes the youth wear XXL) could have been pulled back a loooonnnggg way from the body, while still leaving residue immediately on the shirt itself, possible more distance than considered to the actual entry into Trayvon's body. As GZ hung on to Trayvon by it. Trayvon could have been up and/or near standing, GZ could have been rising as he shot, placing the gun barrel against the clothing while distanced from the skin. While I can envision this, I venture to say for sure that it was not GZ screaming for help because he was too busy thinking "now you are going to die" and making that happen. GZ could have been at least on his knees facing Trayvon holding on tight to Trayvon's shirt, keeping Trayvon somewhat leaning over as the shot was fired. As Trayvon pulls to get away, screams help me, help……. did Trayvon grab his chest as he was shot? Was the gun one that would have enough force to throw Trayvon backward, falling back
onto his back with arms outstretched? The positions of Trayvon's body is hard to make sense of, that of a witness's description and as LE found him face down when they had to roll him to administer
CPR. I probably missed it, but was there any gun power residue etc. actually on the skin that could determine the distance the gun was from bullet entry of Trayvon's BODY other than other than that against the sweatshirt? Was any fiber of the shirts carried into the wound itself?
This case can throw me into the "mystery" of it all and I don't want to loose sight of the fact that a young teenaged man was deliberately HUNTED and KILLED as if some dangerous animal was amuck.
one problem with zman ever being on his BACK, the pictures of him at the police station both the video and the still pictures show his jacket looked neatly pressed with NO indication on any level of any contact with the ground, and his shoes had nothing on the BACK of them but the toes clearly had grass on them……there is NO way he was on his back squirming around for a minute in THAT jacket…….while i am at it, the terrorized pleas for help lasted for 45 seconds off and on and there is NO way the person holding the gun is screaming in pure terror in the final seconds before the shot…….LOGIC says zmans story is PURE BS.
Officer Timothy Smith, who was the first cop to arrive at the scene, took GZ into custody and noticed that the back of his jacket was wet with some grass present, as if he had been lying in the grass on his back at some point.
You're right about the photographs taken at the station house, however.
Sharona Baby (@SLSmith) says:
Professor … do you believe that TM had the cell phone still in his hand at the time of the fatal shot? If yes, how does an object held in the hand of a victim of a fatal shot "typically" is released? Would that provide any insight into TM's body location at time of the shooting? tyia
I don't know the answer to your question, but I imagine he would have dropped it.
The phone is close to the body and the item farthest south of all the items of evidence in the debris field.
thanks. I could not find any "csi" type of information of what a victim typically does with an object held in their hand at the time of a fatal shot. I would assume there is some known variables on this from determining "homicide vs staged suicide". Later baby.
Didn't Zimmerman say he didn't know if he shot him at first? If it was a contact shot, I don't think it matters how fast the events took place or how much blood is in your eyes — you can tell that you shot the guy. How would he think Martin is still a threat after a contact shot to the chest?
Another thing to note, I think Zimmerman probably had gained control of Martin right before the shot. Austin(boy with dog) said he saw one guy on his side and couldn't see anyone else. This person is either Martin or Zimmerman, but based on the timeline of eyewitnesses/events it looks like Austin was there right before the shot. Zimmerman probably had knocked Martin off him and had him in a vulnerable position before firing. The last scream on the 911 tapes sounds like a desperate howl vs the other cries screaming for help.
Please excuse the many typos
"local" should be "logical"
I think one of the problems the defense faces is that specific details of circumstantial physical evidence and the local inferences that can be drawn from the circumstantial evidence keeps coming in a way that does not back Zimmeerman's accounts.
As we saw in your last post (and Raiikun demonstrated) however there is always someone who will take one piece of information, however improbable, to create a narrative that favors the defendant.
I have a question- as a criminal defense attorney, how often are juries dead set on one guilty or not guilty often with multiple improbable sets of facts and inferences?
How would you emphasis the number of improbable events accumulating in your narrative of the evidence that the jury will take with them to make their decision?
Difficult to answer your question because so little is known about the deliberative process in which jurors engage. The courts try to protect juries and juror privacy from scrutiny. We could not even talk to jurors after federal court trials unless the jurors contacted us, which almost never happened.
The jury instructions and closing arguments explaining the instructions in the context of evaluating the evidence in the case is about the best you can do.
This case is unusual because many opinions about it are race driven. For example, if TM were a white guy, I seriously very many people would be passionately defending GZ while failing to see the enormous hole in the defense case; namely, why would an unarmed and non-violent kid who had run away from and successfully eluded a creepy, strange and menacing adult male following him, whom he did not know, and all of a sudden decide for no apparent reason while talking on his cell phone to his girlfriend, to attack and try to kill the man who was much heavier than him, despite not having a weapon?
I marvel at the number of people, many of whom are lawyers, who overlook that problem and assume GZ must be innocent because he was injured, even though his injuries were not serious. Instead of reassessing their opinions in light of the evidence, they dig in and defend their increasingly absurd opinions as though they were hundreds of miles from land in a cruel and dangerous sea and their opinions were the only life preserver within a hundred miles.
I think you're right. Seems like people's opinions of this case are based on racial and political views rather than the evidence.
Could turn out to be a case that's tried multiple times without ever getting a unanimous verdict.
This is why I believe jury selection with attorney conducted individual voir dire, based on answers to an extensive juror questionnaire, is so important.
That's my take on the situation.
(1) One of my criticism of the American legal system is its opaqueness so I am not surprised about the jury. While it its good to protect privacy, one could envision the courts wanting to conduct studies on these issues, and they can certainly conduct those studies as blind studies to protect the identity of jurors.
(2) I agree with your assertions about race and politics. This can, of course, be said of both sides in a charged situation like this,, but the chief things I look for are (a) the rationality of participants and (b) objectivity in reasoning. Related to both, I look to the level of denial or suspension of disbelief necessary to assert a narrative.
Keeping (2) in mind, I think Americans have a hard time dealing with race. So, all those nasty thoughts they have, they bury. They don't come out until situations like this one. Its not just the absurdity of the set up for the narrative as you described regarding the TM and GZ, but also it requires one to suspend disbelief for each step along the narrative spun by GZ. Is it possible in some cases they are right? Yes. Its possible. Is it reasonable doubt over a chain of succeeding events to believe that improbable events occurred as separate events along the course of the narrative? No, I don't think that's reasonable.
The injuries are a good example by the way of the racial angle, but there are others. The assumptions regarding who had a right to self defense, the assumptions about how a smaller build kid could overtake a larger build man (that has Rodney King written all over it), the assumptions about the level of violence blacks are capable of, the assumptions about drugs (if he had any drugs in his system at all that means he was dangerous even as there are White Liberals trying to pass legalize marijuana laws and no one make that assumption about White Liberals being violent due their smoking pot), the improbability of why his wounds were not so severe despite his claims of fearing for his life, etc. Add to that the physical evidence which no matter what it says they search for some improbable way that the evidence nevertheless supports their argument. Even the body location being 60 feet away or 48 feet depending on the version of Zimmerman's story you want to believe, is explained away. He was confused. He didn't know what was going on. This despite the fact he lived in the same place for 3 years. TM is not given the same assumption although again improbably TM was suppose to be more confused than a kid who was just there on a visit?
This becomes at some point a game of simple logic. How likely is it that each assumption, which would need to break for Zimmerman, a reasonable doubt after one thinks of the set of assumptions necessary along the various elements of the narrative?
Ultimately, a reasonable doubt is a doubt for which a reason exists and the jury gets to decide whether their doubts, assuming they have any, are reasonable.
That's where jury nullification enters the picture and racism, like any other bias or prejudice, can determine the outcome.
I think the fact that Trayvon was on the phone (which I assume to be verified through records) at the time of the altercation and had no weapon on him would preclude that the fight was not the initiative of Trayvon. He could have grabbed a BBQ fork, BBQ steal brush, a stick from the tree, or pretty much anything else he could get his hands on to assist in "attacking" this person.
I suspect to a jury, this "plan of attack" initiated by Trayvon is not even reasonable for a juvenile considering he had no history of violence, no aggressive "weapon", and was, all the while, talking on the phone until the confrontation began.
If I knew nothing about the case but that, I would suspect that the juvenile would not be the one to initiate the attack that completely unprepared and would question Zimmerman's version of it.
I would feel that be a reasonable conclusion of anyone not holding racial bias.But of course….jury's made up of people like ALL the ones commenting here and otherwise.
Due to GZ's lack of serious wounds and/or a concussion, I have to conclude that his head was never bashed into the concrete. Also the damage on the front of his face is most likely from TM blasting him with a cellphone. If GZ was innocent, there would be no reason to lie and deceive the people regarding many of the specifics regarding what happened. Fredrick, couldn't all of GZ's lies be considered "consciousness of guilt", because there is only one logical reason for the many lies, and that reason is because he was the aggressor. He adjusted the story to fit a real life movie in which he is the heroic crime fighter that was almost beaten to death by a thug.
Applecross says:
"why would an unarmed and non-violent kid who had run away from and successfully eluded a creepy, strange and menacing adult male following him, whom he did not know, and all of a sudden decide for no apparent reason while talking on his cell phone to his girlfriend, to attack and try to kill the man who was much heavier than him, despite not having a weapon?"
Why do people do dumb things. We know he was high in the week after getting suspended from being high, what kind of conflicts arise in a teen when their father leaves his wife and shacks up with a new person and he is supposed to stay with them? Also George wasn't much heavier than Martin, only 10 lbs. I think Martin thought he could beat up George and did not know he was armed. He was just a kid, a confused, angry, delinquent, high kid. He didn't call 911, he didn't go home even though he was after and had a minute head start. The timeline and the map show he was back near the truck 4 minutes after running away from the truck.
Whether George was setting a trap for Martin, or pulling him down or not really hurt but acting hurt in preparation for killing Martin, or screaming for help to get an eye witness for the shooting, I don't know but I think Martin confronted George.
We know he was high in the week after getting suspended from being high,
We do not know this because he was suspended for having some marijuana residue in a bag. He was not suspended for smoking pot. Although a trace amount of marijuana was found in his autopsy blood, trace amounts are detectable for up to 6 months after someone smokes marijuana and the trace amount was so low that he would not have been affected by it.
what kind of conflicts arise in a teen when their father leaves his wife and shacks up with a new person and he is supposed to stay with them?
This statement also is false. He has been divorced for several years and has been dating Ms. Green for several months, if not longer. She has a son who is younger than Trayvon and they referred to each other as brothers in the familial sense. This was not a one-night stand.
Also George wasn't much heavier than Martin, only 10 lbs.
This statement also is false. Trayvon was 2 inches taller and Zimmerman outweighed him by 48 lbs, according to a comparison of the autopsy report and GZ's medical records from the clinic he visited the morning after the shooting (they weighed and measured his height).
He was just a kid, a confused, angry, delinquent, high kid.
This statement also is false. There is no evidence that he was any of those things. He was an 11th grader with an A/B average who wanted to go to college and study aeronautics.
He didn't call 911, he didn't go home even though he was after and had a minute head start.
He did not call 911 because he was talking to his girlfriend telling her how creepy GZ was. Why would he lead GZ to his house? That's where his little brother was.
The timeline and the map show he was back near the truck 4 minutes after running away from the truck.
This statement also is false. He never made it to the T intersection, much less the truck.
PYorck says:
I agree with you. There is another little detail that might be related to this. During the CVSA interview he mentions that he had to be careful not to shoot his other hand. The remark seemed a little odd in context. Of course not shooting your own hand is common sense, but why was that such an great concern? Assuming he wanted to hold Trayvon who was on top him with his left hand, the most effective place to grab him was somewhere on the upper half of the torso and towards TM's left.
I would think if Martin was trying to get away, he would be pulling himself backwards and pushing himself off Zimmerman. I think it is clear that Martin was on top of Zimmerman.
Yes? If you think I disagree with what you said then that was not my intention.
At the time the shot was fired, yes, but not necessarily prior to that moment.
He may have started out on the bottom and struggled free, perhaps by stunning GZ with several blows to his nose and the back of his head with the cell phone.
Interesting comment.
I remember being baffled by his comment about not shooting the other hand and now it makes sense.
That is, doesn't make sense that he said it, but like so many other slips, he seems not to have been able to shut up.
I think you may be right.
When George says he had to be careful not to shoot his other hand, a big issue comes up for me. He claims that he was underneath Trayvon for several minutes being beaten brutally while all he could do was "wriggle" to get himself onto the grass rather than the concrete. WHERE ARE HIS HANDS? He cannot defend his face; he cannot prevent Trayvon from smashing his head on the sidewalk; he cannot throw Trayvon off him; he cannot bite, scratch, gouge, punch, karate chop, or otherwise defend himself in any way? A guy training to become a cop? A guy who has worked security at private parties? A guy who is 28 years old and grew up with a BROTHER for goodnesssake — is any of THAT believable?
He had no hands available to him at all to defend himself UNTIL his wriggling caused a series of unfortunate events:
His wriggling brought up his jacket so that his chest was exposed;
The exposure of his chest somehow alerted Trayvon to his gun;
Trayvon moved his hand OFF George's mouth ("Shut the f*ck up") and down the side of George's chest, presumably intending to get the gun ("You're gonna die tonight MF-er");
The movement of Trayvon's hand on George's chest reminded George suddenly that he was carrying a loaded weapon in a holster on his right hip;
George suddenly has HANDS — TWO OF THEM!
One of them beats Trayvon's hand to the gun and gets it out; the other hand is hanging around uselessly and vulnerably, in such a way that it can possibly be shot by its companion hand (as in "one hand doesn't know what the other is doing") so the other, gun-bearing hand has to be careful not to shoot it; and
BOOM, hollow-point, explosion inside Trayvon Martin's chest, screaming stops, unfortunate…
The "I had to be careful not to shoot my other hand" leads to many questions, not the least of them is: "So why didn't you slam that other hand into Trayvon Martin's chin, throwing him backwards, so you could stand up, aim your gun at him and shout, instead of 'help help,' something reasonable, such as: 'Hands in the air; this is a loaded gun; back off or I'll shoot.' Huh George?"
I can understand this comment within this set of circumstances. If GZ is on his back and TM on top as claimed, the elbow of GZ's right arm is restricted by the ground. In order for GZ to draw his gun the right elbow must stick out to GZ's right. The gun holstered in GZ's right waistband and positioned for a lefthanded crossdraw, requires this to be an even more contorted motion. As GZ draws, if he merely rotates his wrist up to shoot the gun barrel would be pointed to GZ's left. And rather severely so. He must then "cock" his wrist back to his right as not to shoot his other hand, or entirely miss TM to TM's right side, or just hit TM on the right side of his body. Which belies GZ's implication in his statements that he did not purposely point the gun straight at TM's chest before pulling the trigger. On another note I was reviewing once again the crime lab report on GZ's gun. The gun had no safety on it. It says so in the report. So I do not understand all this talk of safety on/safety off. There was no safety to be set on.
While GZ wants to claim he was helplessly trapped by TM on top, and so GZ had no choice but to shoot Trayvon to survive, it is the coroner's report of the trajectory that proves GZ's BIG LIE.
GZ had to be the guy on top, so he could easily whip out the Kel-Tek from his holster (which was INside his waistband, close to his right rear back pocket – see GZ draw his weapon as he re-creates the action the next day for the detectives.)
Those detectives should have said, "Hey George, get on the ground and show us," but they did not. That would have put the lie to THE BIG LIE right then.
With GZ on top, GZ's "controlling hand" — his left – still has the front of TM's hoodie and sweatshirt grasped, together, in GZ's left fist. That's what bouncers do.
TM is a tall, skinny kid with a narrow chest. GZ ended up placing the barrel of the Kel-Tek right up against the shirt(s), which GZ's grasp has pulled forward and downward – creating the subsequent bullet holes (matching) that are lower on the shirt(s) than the normal position in which the shirts are worn.
This detaining grasp of the shirts has pulled them away from TM's torso, leaving an airspace between skin and shirt(s) of 2″ to 4″ which accounts for the forensic report of the shot fired from an intermediate range from Trayvon's body, while the matching bullet holes on the shirt(s) are from a contact shot, as shown by residue.
Only one bullet was fired.
By pulling Trayvon's shirts toward himself, to control and detain Trayvon, GZ in effect created a little "vestibule" between shirts and skin that the hollow-point had to pass through before entering Trayvon's body and killing him.
The trajectory of the bullet was straight through, no angle, and was perpendicular to Trayvon's body. If they were standing, it would have been a horizontal shot – same trajectory.
The bullet lodged in Trayvon's body, because it was a hollow-point, designed to break up inside the body, shortly after contact, and cause greater internal injuries with no hope of repair.
There was no exit wound.
I believe GZ very carefully placed the gun to (a) hit TM in the heart (and he did) and to avoid his fist adjacent to that area that was grasping a big wad of sweatshirt fabric.
And he did avoid shooting his own hand. And marveled at that to the detectives.
There are students of the Professor who believe TM was shot standing. I'm impressed by these people and their many comments on this site, but the totality of the scene and the action, keep reinforcing, in my mind, that the only reason GZ could fire so precisely, and WITH SUCH FREEDOM OF MOTION, is that Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon, whose arms were pinned to his side.
Zimmerman could have kept him there, in that position, for hours until the cops arrived – and he knew it would be momentarily, but remember that GZ has no personal rage control, and, in fact, by not being sworn personnel (police) he is illegally detaining Trayvon Martin. He knew that.
In the scuffle, his head had just been cut by some sharp object. The edge of the concrete dog-walk? A cell phone? A sprinkler head? Unknown.
Now George, finally mounted atop Trayvon and leaning forward, feels the sticky trickle of blood as it flows forward from the back of his head, past his ears, across his cheek into his goatee.
How DARE he be cut, this narcissist fumes.
The bile of rage rises in Zimmerman's throat, and fuels the murder to come in just a few short seconds.
There are witnesses who saw GZ rising from over TM's body. Nobody saw any vertical struggle. I believe if Trayvon were standing you would not hear the long, sustained cry -38 seconds – from the terrified teen. He was trapped by GZ's body over him.
The long terrified cry did not vary as it would if Trayvon were vertical and could bob and weave, even though he was detained by Zimmerman's grasp.
If they were vertical, Trayvon would have two arms to defend himself. Zimmerman would never have been able to carefully place the shot as he did, AND keep TM's shirts in his grasp. And GZ would have been unstable in a vertical positiion with a victim with two hands free.
But on the ground, GZ, the experienced bouncer, would have his lower body in a saddle position, trapping TM's torso AND arms, pinning TM against the ground as a stable back-stop.
I don't see GZ running around that grassy area with his gun out earlier. I think his first move toward Trayvon was grabbing the front of his shirts after he demanded, "What are you doing here?" I think that Trayvon's arms would fly up at that point (he was taller than GZ) and what actually caught Zimmerman's nose was Trayvon's ELBOW.
Trayvon, after all, was carrying stuff (likely in his dominant hand). There was no boxing match. Interesting that George would pantomime forming a fist coming up to hit him. Trayvon was so much taller, he would have smashed down on Zimmerman, or swung from the side. Zimmerman has seen too many old-timey photos of Jim Jeffries and Gentleman Jim Corbett with their dukes up. That is not how TM would punch out at GZ – due to their difference in stature – AND GZ, I'm certain, grabbed on to TM's shirts from Momemt One, because GZ saw himself as "the enforcer." They both fell at that point, and there was a rolling, scrambling, on-the-grass wrestling match for 10, 20, 30 ft.
When GZ gets the ascendancy atop Trayvon, still controlling TM by his grasp of TM's shirts in his dominant hand ("wrist control," to quote George) he has THE TIME to catch his breath, draw the Kel-Tek out of its holster, lean right over TM and point it menacingly at Trayvon, say "Tonight you die, mother-fucker!", lean over, carefully place it PERPENDICULARLY to Trayvon's torso on the "sweet spot" on TM's shirt front so the bullet will hit the heart, glance a few inches to the left, where his left hand is grasping the shirts, so he doesn't shoot his own left hand, and fire.
You can execute that smoothly, calmly, and without interruption, in the 38 seconds that Trayvon Martin yelled his final, tormented, terrified scream.
And all of the pieces of the puzzle fit.
"which was INside his waistband, close to his right rear back pocket."
Where on Earth did you get "close to his right rear back pocket"? I saw GZ reenactment and he says it was inside his waistband, in front and to the left of his right hip.
"This detaining grasp of the shirts has pulled them away from TM's torso, leaving an airspace between skin and shirt(s) of 2″ to 4″ which accounts for the forensic report of the shot fired from an intermediate range from Trayvon's body,"
Intermediate range starts at 1″. In addition, the forensic evidence of a contact gunshot was found on the two layers of TM's garments, thus not making it to the skin. All the coroner had was the gunshot wound itself to inspect with insufficient sooting to describe it as a contact gunshot. That evidence was found on TM's clothing. This 2″ to 4″ gap appears to be made up as does the claim that GZ was grasping TM's shirts to explain the gap.
I would also like to see exactly what criteria was used to make the assertion that the holes in the sirt did not allign with the wound to TM's chest with specifity to just how much of a misalignement it supposedly was. I'm exatly 72 inches tall and weigh 170 lbs. One inch taller and about 12 lbs heavier than TM. I do not own the same garments made by the same manufacturers as worn by TM, but I too wear size "L" shirts, sweaters and light jackets. When I measured 7″ down from the shoulder seam and 7.5″ over from the left sleeve seam, it comes to a point on ALL my garments roughly one half inch above my left nipple and 2 inches to the left of midline. The coroner reports that the wound enetered TM's chest one half inch below his left nipple and 1 inch to the left of midline. Not in total alignment with my measurments, but closer than the Professor is trying to make people believe. Also keep in mind that TM did not have a fully developed adult body, was slighly thinner than I am and a tad shorter. "L" garments would tend to hang lower and looser on his body as compared to mine, bringing the holes in the garments in closer alignment with the bullet hole in his chest.
Do I believe all of GZ's story. Absolutely not. Do I believe that GZ executed TM? Absolutely not. Do I believe that GZ commited 2nd degree murder as defined by Florida Law? Possibly, yes. But that's why we have trials by jury and not by the media and speculation.
You are mistaken. He clearly demonstrated that the gun was behind his right hip in a holster in his waistband and he would have been lying on top of it, if he were lying on his back as he claimed.
Dr. Vincent DiMaio, the former Medical Examiner of Bexar County, TX reviewed the Assistant Medical Examiner's Autopsy Report and stated that the muzzle of the gun was 2-4 inches from the skin when the fatal shot was fired.
Are you telling us that you know more than he does?
"In addition, the forensic evidence of a contact gunshot was found on the two layers of TM's garments, thus not making it to the skin."
That's nonsense. Didn't you read the lab analyst's report? The exploding gas from the gunshot tore huge holes in the sweatshirt.
"I would also like to see exactly what criteria was used to make the assertion that the holes in the sirt did not allign with the wound to TM's chest with specifity to just how much of a misalignement it supposedly was."
The holes in the garments align with each other and they are both 7 inches down from the intersection of the neck and shoulder seams. That places them approximately 3 inches above the entry wound.
I would like to see a link on this. My attempts to find it using Google search failed to find anything concerning Dr. DiMaio's comments after reviewing the Trayvon Martin autopsy report.
It makes no logical sense that one would find the same sooting on a gunshot wound passing through two layers of garments before piercing the skin that one would find on a gunshot wound passing through no garments.
The autopsy report describes what the ME can "see" from the examination of the body. And all that the ME could examine was the gunshot wound to the chest. The ME saw insufficient sooting to describe it as a gunshot in skin contact to the chest and thus described it as an intermediate range gunshot wound.
I have no clue as to what Dr. DiMaoi's was using as his crieria to reach the conclusion that it was 2″ to 4″, because I can't find any such statements.
That is not the wording in the crime lab report and I would hope would never be used by any crime lab to describe a location in such an variable manner. In describing a location in terms of a point of intersection, one then has to also describe the angle from that point of intersection to make in an accurate description.
The crime lab states that the measurements were taken from the sleeve seam and shoulder seam, but not as a single point of reference. It is described so that the point of entry can be accurately located using trangulation by "drawing" one line up from the point of entry until it reaches the shoulder seam and a second line perpendicular to the first line over the the sleeve seam. And if you look at the report there is an L with a circle around it to indicate that this was what they did. &" down from the shoulder seam and approxinmately 7.5″ from the sleeve seam. As I stated before on my slightly larger frame that would align with a gunshot entry to my chest about 1.5″ above and to the left of where the gunshot wound was located on TM's chest (0.5″ below the left nipple, 1″ to the left of chest midline, again using triangulation to locate that point of entry). Those two points define a straight line measuring about 1.5″. I will admit that I made these measurements solely for the purpose of independently and objectively verifying this 3″ claim. It's obvious what conclusion I have drawn on this claim.
"The exploding gas from the gunshot tore a huge hole in the sweatshirt."
Nice embellishment. LOL. There was tear to TM's outer hoodie initially described as "L" shaped measuring 2″ by 1″ and a hole to an inner sweatshirt with dimensions of 2″ by 1.25″. Looking at the more detailed sections of the crime lab report and the pictures, clearly show that by the time the gunshot passed through TM's inner garment that the force of the gunshot created what is called a stellate (irregular) tear. That would be the tear one usually observes in the skin when the gun barrel is in contact with the skin, but in this case was not. I will admit that I am no expert on the force of exploding gas from a gunshot. I doubt that you are one as well.But even with my lack of expertise, I think I can safely conclude that TM's garments absorbed some of that exploding gas.
Richard Lucas says:
Z said he aproache M the changed and said M aproache hiim. RG testified M said why are you following me. Z says what are you doing hear. RG hears a bonk sound that is when he is grabbed by Z on the right sleave. M phone hits the ground RG says she thought she heard M say get off me, get off me. That was M telling Z to let him go. RG phone goes off. Z is holding M by his right sleeve Z said he began reaching toward his paints pocket and had forgoten his phone was in his coat pocket. M sees george reach for and pull his gun. That is when and why he hit Z in the nose with a left punch in the nose. M still being held grabs for z gun as he is being pulled to the ground with Z. Z grasp the gun closely and tightly with both hands against his own chest. Martin is pulling at Z hands trying to pull them away from the gun. M realizes that he is lifting z shoulders from the sidewalk. M begins pulling and pushing on Z each time striking Z shoulders then head into the sidewalk Z shoulders were taking most of the force that is why Z skull was not crushed. M begins to lose his grip on Z hands. M stands up and says you got me as if surrendering. Z says he said that after shot. Stunned Z begins pulling himself up on m shirt causing M to lean slightly forward. Z place the gun against the shirt and pulls the trigger Z video with police showed him demonstrate how M was positioned when shot. Standing and leaning forward. I did not know about Z talking about not shooting his left hand. I also did not know about the Amy Siewert shirt evidence. I found the measurement on the bullet holes on shirt pic on the web.
Margaret McLaughlin Pelletier says:
The reason Zimmerman stated he was careful not to shoot his own left hand is because when Zimmerman explained how he shot Martin, he said that he was able to get hold of his gun and with his left hand…he grabed hold of Martin and shot with his right hand. The detective said to him there wasn't much room, and asked if he shot from the hip. Zimmerman said no his arm was out when he shot. The dective brought up the fact that if he was holding Martin with his left hand he had to be careful not to shot his own hand. Zimmerman said he was careful not to hit his left hand.
If there is a civil case brought against Zimmerman and he is made to demonstrate exactly just how he shot Trayvon Martin, Perhaps the actual reenactment in front of the court will not be as easy as telling his story to the police. However, Zimmerman did already make a statement that he has a bad memory and has ADD and takes medication for it. Also, he "couldn't see. Couldn't breath." Also, in the video when Z was walking the detectives through the "sight of the murder,' as I call it, Z couldn't remember just where Trayvon Martin approached him, and he said they were standing and "I guess I was trying to push him away from me," push him off me," and as Z was saying this to the detective, he was swinging his hands around acting it out. Yet, Z claims that Martin came up to him out of no where and asked Z if he had a problem with him. Z said he told him he didn't have a problem with him. Z said he reached into his right pants pocket for his cell phone and that's when Martin said to him, :Well you do now," and punched him in the face and that's how it all began. To me Zimmerman tried to detain Martin.
Zimmerman in the video said he was on the ground and Martin on top of him and one of the residents opened their door and said they would call 9-1-1. Yet we are supposed to believe that Martin just continued to stay there beating on Zimmerman. No!! Martin was gettin off Zimmerman and Zimmerman wasn't going to let Martin go. Grabbed his shirt with his left hand and shot him in the heart with his right hand. Zimmerman wanted Martin dead.
What he did AFTER he shot Martin is proof he wanted to be sure Martin did not live.
@Margaret
@Malisha
If a civil claim is filed against Zimmerman by Trayvon's family, Professor Fred and all of us must put together the DEFINITIVE narrative, citing each movement with justification and evidence, and supply it to Trayvon's family and attorneys.
We know what happened.
We have had the forensic evidence at our fingertips — and we know it all by heart. We were open in our analysis.
We DIDN'T expect we had to provide this to the prosecution.
But they were so full of hubris and the big award Bernie was to receive, and paid little attention to evidence. Bernie even thinks Trayvon took part in the battle, not that he was struggling to get away. If the prosecutor has no faith in the victim, or in the chief witness for the prosecution, what could we expect to get?
The verdict we got.
Won't make THAT mistake again!
In your comment "Bernie even thinks Trayvon took part in the battle, not that he was struggling to get away," Do you mean you don't believe that Trayon and Zimmerman were in a battle together?
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