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jameson's Webbsleuths Forum › Peripheral Characters › Nancy Krebs
Her first interview with BPD
BOULDER POLICE DEPARTMENT
DETECTIVE DIVISION
TO. Commander Joe Pelle
FROM. Det. Tom Trujillo
DATE. 2/22/00
RE. P96-21871
PRESENT. A. Det. Tom Trujillo
B. Det. Chuck Heidel
C. Lee Hill
D. Nancy Krebs
E. Alex Hunter
(Tape 1 of 3 tape interview.)
C. (inaudible) the same generation even though 3 years older
D. (inaudible) you were quick
C. That's (inaudible) baby book
D. (inaudible)
C. About your but I think that my focus um initially (inaudible) clarify the context (inaudible) subjected here to control (inaudible) dominance, subjugation. and abuse-(inaudible) participating. continuous participating and then uh
B. (inaudible) before we start, here's my card
C. Thank you very much (inaudible)
B. Tom's on his way over
C. Thank you when he gets here we'll walk you through that I mean !(inaudible)
B. Okay no that's fine) that's fine, actually I'll be following Tom's lead but what I would like to do on this while we're waiting here I can get some preliminary information from you
P96-21871
Nancy, your name and date of birth and all that stuff
D. Okay
B. It is Nancy right
D. Uh-huh
B. Okay, do you have a middle name Nancy
D. Jo J O
B. J 0, okay
D. And my last name is Krebs K R E B S
B. K R E E
D. No KREBS
B. B S Krebs okay, and your birthday
D. 4/25/62
B. How tall are you and how much do you weigh
D. Uh about 5'5"
B. Okay
D. And I weigh last time 142
C. That's okay
B. Brown hair and
D. I have blue eyes
B. And what's your current address
D. Uh in California
P96-21871 3
B. Uh
C. Yes
B. Why don't you give me all the addresses where you can be contacted
B. If that's what we need
D. . XXXX
C. (inaudible)
A. Tom Trujillo
D. XXXX
B. okay I'm just getting some preliminary information
C. Nancy Krebs, Det. Tom Trujillo
D. Hi
A. Nancy how you doing
D. Fine
B. (inaudible ) -..
B. And that in
D. Los Osos
C. Los Osos, okay
D. Right
C. Capital O
B. Right
P.9G-21B71 4
C. The first one
B. Los Osos
B. Osos okay and what's the uh zip code
B. Okay and a phone number
D. Um-
B. XXXX okay there was another address
D. Just through office
(Recording went dead at this point.)
B. Huh, aw well it's (inaudible) of technology
A. Okay~ this is for the recording here um. what you've shown me so far is is copies of your baby book and some photographs including photos of Fleet White Sr. and then some photographs of Fleet White Jr.'s children
D. Yeah and there should
A. Connect
D. Be a…actual… a picture of Fleet White
D. At his wedding.
A. Okay, and where did these photographs come from, I mean the ones (inaudible) obviously but where did these other photographs come from
D. From my grandma's um photo album
A. Okay and that's still out in California
D. Yeah
A. Okay~ now this photo, there's a video of these photographs is that correct is that what this is
C. None none of these videos of other family photographs and correspondence
D. Oh there it is
A. Okay okay so this is Fleet White Jr's wedding picture
A. Okay, you can pull that one out, and who were the people again that photograph hard to see um kind of from left to right who's this female in the white shirt
D. Let me see
A. A white dress
D. Can I look at it
A. Sure
D. It's a little bit hard, that's uh Nyla
A. Okay, which would be Fleet White's
D. Mother
A. Okay
D. Fleet White Jr., his wife Priscilla, his father
D. And his sister Loni
A. Okay, and the original photograph is out in California
A. Okay, so I need to pull this out, if you don't mind
B. For the record that was from a page 20 from a
P96-2187l 6
C. Fax
B. From a fax right
B. Is that what that was from
A. Okay so
D. And this is uh this is a horrible picture (inaudible) uh the quality of it but this is a picture of Fleet White Jr. and Fleet and that's a picture of little Fleet
A. Okay so this is Fleet White Jr ., one who is currently in Boulder
A. And his son
A. Okay, and that's on page (inaudible) hard to tell 16
B. Looks like page 16 from the fax copy from
A. And then these other photographs uh the other pages of photographs um one's not numbered uh but these are all family photographs of Fleet White's…Fleet White Jr's children, where were these taken at
D. Um
A. Have any idea
D. Well it it says right here, it's written on there that this is before they moved to Colorado
D. And that they were 5 and 3 1/2 years old
D. And that they were taken at a children's museum in Tennessee
A. Okay, very good, that kind of that way I can go back and try to figure out what's what as far
as all these photos go, okay, and then you have this greetings from Fleet and Nyla that would be Fleet White Sr.
D. Right ,
A. And his wife and who are the two children in there
D. Uh Fleet White I guess, he's really Fleet White III
D. And Daphne
A. Got it and that was taken in Aspen in 1997
D. Was sent,
A. So on the video tape is another photograph
A. Is that right, okay, um so I guess I guess there's some sort of a connection between you and the White families. Fleet White Sr., Fleet White Jr., I understand that, uh let's start kinda back in the beginning it's probably the easiest way i
D. Okay, can we read this forst
D. I think (inaudible)
A. What what
A. What is this
D. It's a it's a letter to my grandmother
A. Uh-huh
D. From uh Nyla White
D. And I think it has some significance because it talks about how uh they would spend Christmases with my mom
D. And my grandmother (Very long pause) (50 sec pause)
A. And Gordon is
D. It's my grandpa that passed away
(Long pause) (20 sec pause)
A. I'm. it talks about Fleet and Loni, would be Fleet White Jr.
D. (inaudible). when will she (inaudible) communication
C. Huh
A. Okay, that's fine (inaudible) ~ so let's start back let's (inaudible) start back as far as you can first remember um your family and the White's family being together, when was that
D. Probably when I was about 3 years old
P96-21871 ! 9
A. Okay, so the White's have been um friends of your parents, grandparents
D. Both
A. For many, many years
D. Yes
A. Okay, um where did you guys live at that time
D. Where did I live
A. Yeah where did you live
D. I lived in Buena Park
A. Okay, and Fleet White Sr. was good friends with your grandfather, is that correct
D. And my grandma
A. And your grandma
A. Okay, and where did the Fleet White Sr. live at that time
D. In Hunt, not Hunt, in Long Beach
A. Long Beach okay
D. Uh-huh !
A. Um kinda kinda bring me up to date just a little bit um you know how you kept in touch With the White family, that sort of thing and then talk about go into a little bit more detail if you would (inaudible) kind kind of tell me throughout the years you know I mean have you kept in touch with the Whites, have you have you communicated with the Whites I mean obviously there's communications from 1997 uh but kinda start back from when you first remember and go forward and kinda give me an idea of… of a your contacts with the Whites
D. And like …
A. Just general contacts
D. Well that's really hard to do because I would say that my contacts weren't 'general contacts
P96-21871 10
A. Okay, um I mean did you cause it talks about it a little bit um Christmas time, that sort of thing, let's start there um I mean I understand there's some other things some subtle things goin' on in this letter but kinda generally and how often would the Whites visit you guys, your grandparents, your parents that sort of thing .
D. Very often
A. Okay, daily, weekly
D. Uh I would say at holidays
D. Christmas, Easter um and uh birthdays, like my grandpa's birthday or my grandma's birthday or
D. Fleet Senior's birthday or Nyla's birthday
A. Okay so generally and and let's talk about, let's break the families up into… there's too many Fleets here
C. Uh-huh
A. I want let's let's break the family up into Fleet White Sr. um and Nyla corrrect
D. Uh uh-huh
A. Um they would visit your folks or your grandparents
D. My grandparents
A. Okay so Fleet White Sr. and Nyla would visit your grandparents on on the average, the major holidays throughout the years is that what you're saying um Christmas, Easter, and birthdays
D. Birthdays uh-huh
A. Okay any any other times that
D. I'm sure there were other times but I don't know exact dates it would be real hard for me to give exact dates from that point or
A. That's fine that's fine, um when did Fleet White Jr. start comin' into the.picture
D. Well he was always in the picture
A. Right as, what I mean is he's comin' over with Fleet White Sr., when did Fleet White Jr. um I mean is he (inaudible) is he good friends with your grandparents or good friends with your parents both
A. Okay okay um kinda as a time reference here, when when did the assaults start, actually who who started the assaults, Fleet White Sr. or Fleet White Jr., the assaults on you
D. Uh Fleet, on me
D. Fleet White Sr.
A. Okay, kinda as a reference, time reference, when do you first remember those starting
D. Around the age of 3 but closer to 4
A. Okay 3 to 4 years old
D. Oh-huh
A. Okay, and where would those occur at
D. Um sometimes at my grandparent's house
D. Oh sometimes at different locations
A. Okay, when they occurred at your grandparent's house, is that over one of these holiday type weekend type things
A. Um that the Whites would be present at
A. Okay um, who all was present, 1 mean during those holidays obviously Fleet White Sr. and Nyla uh Fleet White Jr., any other children present
D. Loni
A. Okay, and Loni is
D. Fleet White's sister
A. Okay and who else
D. Uh myself
D. And um my sister would have only been about a year old
A. Okay, were all the children involved in the assaults or was it just you so specifically was Loni there um was your little sister involved
D. At a year and a half, I don't remember
D. Her being there doing anything to my sister at that time
D. Um but Fleet, I don't remember anything with Loni either
D. But I do remember things with uh Fleet White Jr.
A. Okay um
D. Who woulda been about 15 or 16 years old
A. Okay was Fleet White Jr. the victim of these assaults, or was he a suspect in the assaults, Was he a perpetrator when when you can first remember the assaults when he was pressent
D. I think that he was made to do things to me
D. So I don't know if you want to call that a perpetrator or
A. Okay, he was one of the actors in the assaults
A. Okay um Loni wasn't involved in this that .you can remember
D. I mean she coulda been in a different place
D. Having things done to her
A. Okay, um and you started going through time um start movin' forward, do you ever remember your sis your sister, younger sister bein' involved or being the victim of these assaults
A. When's the first recollection that that occurred
D. Uh...probably when I was about 6 years old
D. Uh 10 old, your sister's a year and a half younger than you
A. Okay uh
A. Okay and what's your sister's name
D. XXXX last name now.
A. And XXXX
A. XXXX
A. And where's XXXX livin' right now
D. Germany
A. How come she's out in Germany
D. Uh she transferred
A. She
D. From Arvada to Germany
A. Arvada Arvada, Colorado
A. Oh she was a local person
D. For a while
A. Okay is she in the military or anything
D. She's a civilian but works for the military
A. With the military
A. Which branch of government is she in
D. Um. XXXX
A. Okay.; how old is she right now
A. Okay, I want to come back to XXXX in just a little bit, so the first time you kinda remember um XXXX also being a victim of these sex assaults, cause when you were 6 that made XXX about 4 and 1/2
A. That right, and where was that at again kinda generally which
D. Well I (inaudible) I uh
A. (inaudible) occurred
D. I would say probably my grandparent's house
A. Okay, did anything ever occur at your mom and dad's house
D. Yes, uh-huh
A. Okay, tell me about, let's start with some of the things that may
D. Can
A. Have occurred at mom and dad's, go ahead
D. Can I say something cause
D. I have to do this, um and this is really important um my grandfather
D. Died on his birthday February 6, 1966
D. And the Whites were attending a party and uh what I remember about that is that my grandpa was trying to protect me
D. And that Fleet Sr. and my grandpa were in a screaming match, yelling and screaming at each other and my grandpa had a massive heart attack
A. Okay, and this is fact
D. And died and that's really important
A. This was at his birthday, your grandpa's birthday
A. Okay, who
D. And I just, I remember an argument happening and I don't remember what was being said cause I was only, I was almost 4 years old then
D. And I remember my grandpa grabbin his chest and falling to the ground
A. Okay, I'm sorry, do you remember what the argument was about
D. No
A. Just that they were screaming
D. Something about…that they were screaming that Fleet had got out he was tryin' to tough me or something and my grandpa just got really upset
D. For some reason and they had a screaming match
A. Okay and this is Fleet Sr.
A. Okay, um did you talk to your grandma about this at all, who else have you talked to about all these assaults
D. I haven't talked to my grandmother about that
A. Okay, uh have you talked to your mom or dad about either one of these, and of the assaults or anything
D. About any of the assaults, a lot of times there where there so I wouldn't have to talk to them about it
A. Okay and I guess that's what's (inaudible) I'm not understanding a 100% so your mom and dad were present in the room during the assaults…or they were just there in the house during the assaults
D. My mom
A. Does that make sense
D. Yeah. well they were often present during the assaults
A. Okay so your mom and dad both knew about what was occurring
A. Okay um and they knew, what was occurring to both you and your sister
A. Okay, were they a part of this
A. Okay. how were they a part of the assaults
D. Well they let them happen
A. Okay. um did your did your father physically assault you at all
A. Sexually assault you
D. (inaudible) things about my dad
A. Okay, um
D. Wrapping me up in blankets. keeping the blankets really tight so I couldn't get out of it
D. Um I can remember being whipped belts. and I would uh pee in my bed or something like that
A. Okay so were your mom and dad, the assaults, were they limited to the kind of physical assault type thing. physical and mental assaults um or did they also include sexual assaults
D. They also included sexual assaults
A (inaudible)
D. And uh my mom…was that she would actually sometimes take me to places and witness things that have happened to me
A. Okay what do you mean take you to places
D. Like- take me over to the Whites
D. Or the there were other locations that they would take me to
A. Okay okay so your mom was physically active in actually kind of giving you to the Whites is that what I'm hearing
A. Okay, and this is this started with Fleet White Sr.
A. When did Fleet White Jr. get involved other than when he was kind of a participant at 16 um when did he kinda physically take over become involved in this
D. When he was doing it willingly is that what
A. Yeah
D. You're asking me
A. Yeah .
D.………….need to think
D. And probably when I was around 7 ~ 8 years old
A. Okay, that's when he kinda became an active participant on his own as it were
D. Uh-huh, uh~huh
A. Okay, um when's your birthday
D. 4/25
A. Okay, uh
D. And Fleet White is 50 years old
A. Okay, so he's about
A. 12 years older than you. 13 years older than you
A. Okay um let me let me back up for just a second, we talked about Fleet White Sr. and we talked about Fleet White Jr. um and unfortunately let's define assaults I do you remember were they kind of a fondling. touching type of an assault or did they go beyond that
D. No they went beyond that
A. Okay for both Fleet White Sr. and Jr.
A. Okay, um. tell me how far they went beyond that is it um
D. Penetration and
A. Okay, like digital penetration with their fingers
D. No penetration with their penises
A. Okay. um vaginally
A. What about anally
A. Okay so penetration both orifices
A. Okay, what about oral sex
D. Oral copulation
A. Okay um where they made you un they placed their penis into you into your mouth, that sort of thing
A. Okay and we're talkin' about both Fleet Sr. and Jr. doing this
A. Okay uh when was the last time this occurred ,
D. Last time?
A. Uh, the most recent
D. The last time that I can remember Fleet White Sr. was when uh he came to my grandparents house in Cayucos
A. Cayucos, where's that
D. It's in California I
D. And it's about 5 miles from my home
A. Okay and when was that
D. Um, can I look
A. Sure anything that will help you
B. While you're at it, how do you spell Cayucos
D. CAYUCOS
D. The ninth of August 1980
A. Okay, and what's what are we looking here
D. That's uh the will of my grandfather
D. And um it's um Fleet White's signature as a witness and Nyla White. as a witness too
A. Okay and this is in it's hard to read the date 19…
A. August 1980
B. (inaudible)
A. Is that, that's supposed to be an 80
D. I think it
D. Actually I think it should be a 90
A. Okay and this is when Fleet White Jr. and his mom
D. No this is Fleet White Sr.
A. Okay this is Fleet White Sr., so the last sex assault that occurred to you by Fleet White Sr. .was back in August of 1990
A. Is that right trying to get some of these straight and that's after this photo it's kind of a two page photocopy that rolls over, it's a it's supposed to be a legal size document Lee (inaudible )
C. (inaudible) I just received it on a fax machine and I assume it's the standard (inaudible)
A. (inaudible)
C. (inaudible) will
A. Okay, um when is the last time that Fleet White Jr. um was a suspect, when was the last time he did any type of sexual assault on you
D. Uh the best that I can remember it would have
A. We want you to .remember
D. Okay, it would had of been between uh 1976 and 1978
A. Okay, and where would that have occurred at
D. In Trona, California, Trona T R O N A
A. Okay, uh so '76 to '78…um…the kind there's there's kind of a big skip, I mean Fleet White Jr. stops in '78, um Senior doesn't stop until '90, were you around Fleet white Jr. between '78 and '90, have you been around him at all
D. I've seen him
A. Okay seen him like I mean like on TV or seen him personally
D. No in a more in a more casual setting at my aunt and uncle's house in Bakersfield
A. Okay, when was the last time you saw Fleet White Jr. in Bakersfield or saw at all
D. Uh woulda been in probably around in the .8O's mid mid 8Os
A. Okay um that's kind of a casual you just got kind of a casual atmosphere
A. Uh
D. Where Fleet and Priscilla had come to visit my uh uncle
D. And Aunt in Bakersfield
A. But there wasn't any type of assault on you at that time
A. Okay um ...any reason why Fleet White Jr. stopped the assaults back in '78 I guess (inaudible)
D. We1l..."um I think because it……it had gotten to a point where I was being abused so much that um people were noticing things where I was going to school
D. And they reported that there was some child abuse going on
D. And at that point in time I went to uh sex investigation and then later uh they went to a preliminary hearing and then the person um pleaded no contest to statutory rape and sodomy
A. Okay um we just pulled out a photograph of a person in Inyo County
D. Inyo
A. I N Y O County um Independence, California is that right
A. Okay let's, who who's who's this a photograph of
D. Mackey Boykin
A. MACKY
D. Well he spelled it different ways
D. MACKIE or MACKEY
A. Okay...,Boykin
D. Uh-huh BOYKIN
A. Okay and when was this when was this booking photo taken
D. In '80
D. I think it says one or is that 81
A. It's hard to okay '80, '81 something like that; now how does how does Mackie fit into all this; who's Mackie
D. Mackie was uh my stepfather's brother
D. But not at the time that this was going on, he was my mom, when she was married to my dad
D. Had several men that would come over to our house and Mackie's brother Mackie's sister Lived down the street from us in Buena Park
A. Okay, let let me back up just a little, what's your mom's name
D. Gwen
A. Got that G W
D. EN
A. E N and Boykin
D. BOYKIN
A. What's your real father's name
D. Don
A. Last. name
D. Krebs (inaudible) yeah
09-22-2017, 05:30 PM (This post was last modified: 09-22-2017, 06:40 PM by jameson245.)
A. Okay, when were they married…or were they married
D. Where
A. When were they married
D. I think 1960
A. Okay about '60, and they were divorced, you talked about
D. Well my Dad left when I was about 6 years old
A. Okay so when was that 19..
D. '68
A. Okay, what do you mean your Dad left
D. He moved to San Luis Obispo
D. And uh and my sister and I stayed with my mom and my brother went with my dad.
A. Okay so did Mom get a divorce at that point in time
D. Uh huh
A. Okay your mom saw, or was seeing other people at that time
D. Well she was seeing other people while she was still married to my Dad
A. Okay and that's where this guys comes into (can't read the next part)
A. Okay um and he was arrested in 1980 for sexual assaults on you
A. Okay, and that's and so you think that's why Fleet (cough) there were some changes goin on, people were noticing things about you, is that correct
A. And that's why Fleet um stopped the sex assaults back in 1978 does that make sense
D. Around that
A. Around that time
D. Time (inaudible)
A. Okay. and we're talking about um Junior
A. And Fleet White Sr. continued the sex assaults against you all the way up through 1990 is that right
A. Okay, um did you bring that to any other than mom's attention. Did you bring that to the attention of social services or anybody um during that time
D. During that time
D. No but I did when I started um in therapy
A. Okay when did you start therapy
D. I'm not really sure
D. I mean it
(inaudible)
D. I've been in it in therapy about 10 years
A. So about 1990. does that sound right
C. Can can I interject
C. Her therapist is available to cooperate with this
C. And she's not a uh latent memory developer, she's not a hypnotist or anything like that and I've been in her offices in XXXX
C. And uh she she has notes that indicate references to abuse by the Whites that predate the event
A. Okay and and again that the therapy started probably around 1990 does that sound
C. They both told me about 10 years ago
C. Also just for illustration) I don't know (inaudible) and I'm sorry
A. That's fine
C. But I'm trying to help and of course you all know this is difficult for for her but these are school records of Nancy indicating the number of absences
C. And reasons for that and these three are for
D. (inaudible) when I was in the seventh grade
D. And there were things going on in in San Luis Obispo County I was in seventh grade, I had missed 45 days of school, 37 of them were because I was ill and 8 because of family emergenc ies
D. And in the eighth grade I had missed 21 days and I had only, I only stayed there until March
D. And I don't know how many family emergencies there were
A. Okay, and 9th through 11 th grade
A. Where are those records
D. That, they should be in Trona and I've actually tried to get my records from Trona and they tell me that they don't have my records
A. Okay, Trona
D. California
A. Okay and that's what this is up here at the top
A. Torona Joint Unified School District...okay um, when we get all done what I'll do is I'll have you um sign some releases so we can talk to the therapist, so we can uh get some school records that sort of thing if you wouldn't mind, we'll get to that at the very end um so and this guy here um who did you tell about the sex assaults involving this guy
D. Well at first I didn't tell anybody
D. Then I was close to a teacher in... at Trona High School
D. And some other teachers and they were noticing that things were going on
D. That I was coming to school in different states of mind and they called...uh the authorities
A. Okay um so a school teacher at Trona High School
A. And about what year was that
D. Uh…
A. What what year of school was if that that's easier, we can figure out how ~old you are
D. I think that it was in uh it had been in '78 or '79
D. Cause the actual trial was um July 8 of 1980
A. Okay, so you told the school teacher about this guy here
B. You want to take a break, this (inaudible) if you want to this will be a very good time to do it
A. Yeah you want to take a break
A. Real quick
B. Or are you okay!
C. Can I explain
B. Sure
C. In my
B. Uh-huh
C. Conversations with her over you know we've been talking I guess five different days and uh she's real good about um pressing through but there reaches a point there if she recalls these events um on three occasions she's been uh curled up on the floor sobbing for a long time so I mean that may be coming but
C. She's very courageous
A. What we can do is let's um let's take about 5 minutes you can go to the bathroom or anything maybe get a glass of water um and that way maybe we can try to figure out what's wrong with the tape so I don't have to keep flipping the tape when we talk without messing up the tape recorder
P96-21B71
A. All right, let's stop the tape right now it's it's actually about 3.40 in the afternoon, okay
C. Can I get you on this (inaudible)
B. You want to use the restroom
D. I'm actually still okay
B. We'll, you sit here, take a break then okay
(Electronic noise.)
C. In these events where she would be handed over, almost all of them were filmed
C. So she has a XXXX reaction XXXX view of a camera (can't read the line)
(electronic noise)
B. And I tell all the defense-attorney that come in and it's just um, it's kind SOP as um assume that you are
C. Okay (inaudible)
B. And that way that way you know there's no (inaudible)
C. Right and and that (inaudible)
B. There's no secrets you know assume that you are
C. Yeah
B. And then nobody can beat you up, nobody can be accused of being sneaky about it
C. What were, and we were discussing that just a moment ago and and she's completely fine with that
C. And it helps her that she doesn't have to look at the camera
B. Okay, all right, you know I worked I I worked a 9 ½ year old being the 9/1/2 year old, 9 ½ years being the last time the assault occurred and according to us was 9 ½ years, according to the defense after it went to trial was 10 ½ years old because the statute was the statute of limitation
C. Oh
B. Exten extenuating situation er circumstances
B. Which extended the the um the statute of limitations on that one but um uh you know I I know from experience that these are difficult
B. And and you you're doin' a good job, what what really helps and it helped when we went to trial on this one , is that um you use some sort of anchors to remember stuff you know jeez I was a junior that year and I remember because you know little things, little things it was snowing out that day
D. My house
B. And and I recall that and we got a phone call from a uncle overseas or something like that. It helps to have those little anchors that that when we have to when we go back to corroborate this stuff we can do it a little bit easier but you don't, I mean, you don't
D. But I have so much stuff crammed in my head
B. And you know what helps also because you these things take these they go over such a long period of time it happened so many times is that what helps is that you pick out ones that really stand out you know um ones that I know this happened because and again then you throw an anchor in there in that and and it it helps us and it helps you to to nail it down, it helps other people that might be witnesses to that you know um so that and that's why we're asking um detailed questions or Tom's asking you detailed questions about you know what was going on at the time who was where, it gets a little confusing some times but usually first time through it's really confusing for you if people don't that don't know the information because it's all fresh (inaudible) the so and so is or or grandfather or whatever we go through it 3 or 4 times and then we become familiar with it so, you're not, you're losing us but we'll catch up on some of this stuff all right okay um let me uh let you go ahead and continue your break, see if this thing's working
C. Are you doin okay
D Uh
C. (You know I think I (inaudible)
C. (inaudible), detective
B. Yes
(Talking outside the interview room.)
C. You're being very patient
D. Huh
C. You are being very patient, you know you can…I know you have a tendency to follow a question there's parameters but on several occasions you've offered additional information because I know that you have a narrative that's more important then they are eliciting from you, and you should feel free to go ahead go ahead and say it everything …it will help actually…you're not being examined in court some of the formalities associated with testifying aren't so present here and so you know they're tryin' to help you recreate…..what they may not understand is the……you have amplified comments that will make it that much clearer
D. I have what
C. You have amplified comments so it will make it that much clearer, I understand that cause we've been working together for several days…..but um feel free to help with them okay
D. That's what I'm here for
C. Right
C. (inaudible) study the uh RTD (inaudible)
D. Oh……are they gonna bring us some coffee
(Long silence.)
C. Now I'd like to help them (inaudible) okay (inaudible)
(Many inaudible voices coming from outside the interview room.)
A. They're watching' Comedy Club in there
C. I didn't
A. Lee uh
C. Successfully dubbed with the tape
A. Lee didn't dub the tape quite right and so they're they're lookin' at Comedy Club
C. God damit, fortunately I have the original
A. Good well actually just bring the original and uh if you have the original tape uh we have high 8 player
A. That we can go right from high 8 to video um and that's…that's these pictures I mean……might have a hard time but what may be best for us is um is actually get the original photographs on some of these, we could actually make photocopies, color photocopies so we can see 'em um so that they're no um and some of these are very dark and I you know I kinda kinda tell who they are um only cause I know the people uh but I think it would be better if we had actually good, clean photocopies……and we can do that you know we can photocopy for you
A. That's what
C. (inaudible) I plugged the VCR into the input jacks and I guess I have to switch a button to change it from uh cable connection to VHS
A. Probably, like I said ours we have a deck in the other room it's all set up for that so we can get it without a problem okay
C. Okay
A. So, when Chuck comes back well start our tape back up….. then we'll have that just in case this other microphone doesn't quite work and uh we'll kinda go from there, you okay with Pepsi, do you want a glass of water of somthin'
D. No, I'm fine
A. Okay, if you have to stop and go to the bathroom or anything you know get too warm of whatever
(Sound of door closing.)
C. Well I though, no I mean, I hope it was also funny and a good routine
B. From what I saw of it it was ok
A. Actually from what I saw, I didn't I didn't recognize the uh the comic but it was some comic, Comic Club okay uh, let me start that back up like I said we'll kinda use that as our judge um again if we have to take any breaks at all, you let me know and we'll stop okay um I think probably, now that we got kind of a basis um of different things let's start back in 1990 okay cause that's the last time there were any sex assaults against you, is that correct
D. No it's not the last time there were any sexual assaults against me
A. By Fleet White Sr. or Fleet White Jr.
A. Okay so 1990 was….I I think that's a good cut off date um and again if we need to go forward we can do that we can start from present day and go back to 1990 but uh for now since we're kinda focusing on Fleet White Sr. and Jr. um let's start at 1990 and kinda work our way back, that sound like a good idea, good way to start cause I got, we kinda jumped around quite a bit, different dates and stuff so start in 1990, um that's when you started therapy in 1990 correct
A. And that was the last time that Fleet White Sr. sexually assaulted you
A. Is that correct
D. That I remember uh-huh
A. Okay, um where did that assault occur
D. At my grandpa's house
A. In California
D. In Cayucos uh-huh
A. Okay, um let's let's kinda start with that assault there……who all was involved in the assault, was it just Fleet White Sr. and you or were there other people in the room
D. Um…..there were other people in the room to start with
D. But then I was taken down to a a bedroom in my grandma's place the upstairs most like a living room, kitchen and downstairs it was two bedrooms
A. Okay uh when you started in the in the main room with other people um how did Fleet White Sr. um get you out of that room and downstairs
D. He just asked me to come with him
A. Okay, um did anybody else acknowledge that you left there at that time
D. Yes I mean everybody that was in the room saw me leaving with
D. Fleet White Sr. to go downstairs
A. Okay, who all was in the room at that time
D. It would be my grandfather, Albert Sprague, my grandma, Alice Spraig and Nyla
A. So Fleet White's wife Nyla and your grandparents
A. Okay um did your grandparents have knowledge of what Fleet was gonna do with you
A. Okay, now were they actively, is this something they were actively involved in also as far as sexually assaulting you does that make sense
D. Well they provided a place for sex um numerous sexual assaults to occur
A. Okay, so they they kinda provided a place
A. Did they have knowledge of what was goin'g on
A. Okay, so your grandparents and Fleet White's wife were present in the room and they knew that Fleet White took you downstairs
A. Okay, what occurred specifically during that assault since that's the most recent one involving the Whites.
D. Um first remember that he asked me to undress
D. And that he took several pictures of me with a Polaroid camera
A. Okay, Do you know where those photographs are at now (inaudible)
D. I have no idea
A. He took those with him
A. Okay so he took several Polaroid photos of you
A. Were you dressed or undressed at that time
D. Undressed, he had me undress
D. And took several photographs
D. And ever since I've been a little girl he always would call me his little tyke or his little princess or you know he would……um……hard to describe him……he would he even though I was an adult he was talking to me as a if I were a child
A. Okay……when he called you little tyke or little princess did that only occur during the sexual assaults or did that occur at other times
D. No that occurred at other times
A. Okay, so that was kind of his pet name for you
A. As his little tyke or little princess
A. Okay, and goin' back to the sex assault, after he took photographs of you what occurred then
D. Then uh……my granma had a uh a……headboard on her bed and he tied my hands up to the headboard
D. And……(long pause)……he um------started rubbin' his body all over my body
A. Okay, we talkin' about like a massage type thing with lotion or just kinda rubbin' up against you
D. No it was more like groping
D. I think it is a better word
B. Is he undressed at this point
B. Uh what's distinguishable about his body
A. Any scars or tattoos, big marks or anything like that
D. No to be perfectly honest, when uh…..many of uh the assaults occurred I just didn't really pay attention to things like that
D. I mean I didn't……I was tryin' to do something you know trying' to think of something else other than this man groping my body
A. Okay, by groping um you talking about just two bodies rubbing together or was he fondling you with his hands that sort of groping, is that what you're talkin' about
D. I'm talking about that he was rubbing his penis all over my body
A. Okay, okay um at that, did he ever have intercourse with you at that time
A. Okay, um oral intercourse
D. ...as best as I can remember
A. Okay what about vaginal intercourse
D. Yes (inaudible)
A. And anal intercourse
D. I I I tell you this that….um….I do remember this really clear but he had the uh sodomized me at the very end
(End side one, tape one.)
D. He would pull out before he was ready to ejaculate in me, stick his penis in my mouth
A. Okay, so he'd go from anal intercourse to stickin' his penis in your mouth
D. Or not just anal intercourse, also vaginally
A. Okay, so ei either time when he was havin' intercourse with you he'd pull out and place his penis in in your mouth
D. Right, but that didn't always happen
A. Okay but more specifically in in 1990 the last time is that kind of the events that occurred
D. That he ended I'm really clear on that he ended by sodomizing me
A. Okay okay, now obviously not the last time you've seen Fleet White Sr.
A. In 1990, um did you tell anybody you know like a girlfriend um other than your therapist, did you tell anybody else about that encounter in 1990
A. Okay and there have been other sexual encounter, sexual assaults against you since 1990 right
A. But not with Fleet White Sr. or Fleet White Jr.
A. Okay um, you have som….can we go like a year increments, five year increments, about how many times between say 1985 and 1990 did Fleet White Sr. sexually assault you
D. 1985 to 1990?
A. Is that too is that too big of a time span
D. …Well I really have to think about that
D. You know it's like
A. Let let's let's start the
D. Oh can I say something
D. (inaudible) um……just because that was the last time that Fleet White…..uh physically did anything to me
D. Does not mean that he hasn't been asking me just recently to
A. Okay, tell me about that
D. And that has happened before I came to Colorado, where he had been calling my grandma
D. On a daily basis and he told me that his wife, who asked to talk to me, called my grandma's number
D. And told me that his wife, Nyla, was in Costa Mesa and wanted to know if I would fly to Aspen, Colarado
A. Okay, when did this conversation take place
D. Um…..I don't know….uh if I could look at a calendar something I can give you a better…..
C. May I show her a calendar
A. Sure, you got one otherwise we can, I can go get a calendar, I can have somebody bring in a calendar um are we talking about this year
D. I'm talkin' about right before I came here
A. So today is what the 22nd
C. February, we're right here uh no uh yes that's a Tuesday this this column is Monday so February 22, you came here on Saturday the 19th
C. And uh this uh is the Friday before and um we first met on Friday the uh 11th
D. Right, so…….oh I ihow um……..I would say that the call started either the 7th or the 8th of February
A. Of this year of 2000
D. Right, uh-huh
A. Okay and those were calls to your grandma's house (inaudible)
D. Well my grandma lives with me and my grandma has a separate phone line
A. Okay, did the calls come in on your grandmother's phone line or your phone line
C. (Coughing)
D. On her phone line, my grandmother's phone line
C. Sorry
A. (inaudible) for you
B. What's that phone number
D. It is um area code XXXX
A. Now would would your grandmother release toll records to us (inaudible)
D. Will my grandmother what
A. Release her toll records to us
A. Who who pays who pays the phone bills
D. My grandma
D. Pays her phone bill and I have my own
A. Okay, but you're talking about the phone calls that came in on the 7th and 8th of February, came into your grandmother's phone line correct
A. Not to your phone line
A. Okay um what I need to do is is there a way to look at to see um what long distance phone calls your grandmother received at that time
D. Well I don't know that, I mean I would know that there were there would be ways to look at her phone bill
A. Okay that that's what I (inaudible)
D. But the calls…but the the calls the calls were
A. Were they local calls or were they long distance calls
D. No they were long distance calls
A. Okay so they so if Fleet White Sr. was callin' from Aspen to grandmother's house
A. Okay that's what I need to know
C. From Aspen or from California
D. From Aspen
C. He was callin' …..can….can
A. Go on
C. I provide some context…..she's terrified of her grandmother
C. Her grandmother has participated in handing her over (inaudible) the role of her grandmother living with her is basically a dominant domineering watchdog
C. And so there there's a great deal of terror that she has associated with
C. He….that why she left
A. Okay , and and that's um what I was trying' to get at is the phone calls from Aspen, CO correct
D. Right and I think that my grandma……made at least one if not two calls back to Fleet White
A. Fleet White Sr.
D. In aspen
A. Okay now let let's talk about the calls from Fleet White Sr. on the 7th and 8th, what exactly did he did he say during those phone calls
D. ...uh...I'm just tryin' to get clear in my mind
D. Which…..came first which day
D. He said what
A. So you're talkin' about February let's let's start with February 7th, looks like it's a Monday um what time of the day did those phone calls come in, morning, afternoon, or evening
D. I don't know but I have uh I don't know right now but I have a record of them
D. Because every time that Fleet Sr. called my house I called my therapist
D. And told her
A. So they they would be in your therapist's records
D. Uh-huh and I also called a friend of mine uh an elderly friend of mine and told her at the time to call my grandma's phone number so that she would know that it was busy and that that this is the person that she was talking to
A. Okay, who who's this elderly person that you talked to
D. Her name is XXXX
A. Okay and where does XXXX live
D. In Los Osos
A. Okay, kind of around the area that you live right
A. Uh does she have a phone number, what what I will probably do is um I'd much rather obviously go out and talk to them in person um but again if we have a phone number mostly to track who's who as that kind of how we track people
A. Do you have her home phone number
A. Okay and what is that
D. Um it's XXXX
D. And her phone number is XXXX
A. Okay, and that's on the tape too so we can go back and we'll get that off um so you called on the 7th, you received a phone call from Fleet White Sr., he's callin' from Aspen, CO and as soon as he called you at your grandmother's phone number you called XXXX and you called your therapist, is that right
A. Okay, what, do you remember what Fleet White talked about on the 7th
D. Well I'm not sure that it was exactly that day because
D. There was like several different calls from him
D. Like it mighta not, there was one day that he actually skipped calling which……that he didn't call
D. But there was several calls in a row
A. Okay, last call that he made uh what did he tell you what did he ask you
D. Last call, uh……he asked me if I would like to go to his birthday party, there was going to be in Costa Mesa
D. A a sometime in, at the end of March
A96-21871
D. Because he want, he missed me, he asked me if I would send him a picture of myself, a recent picture
D. And uh he……tryin' to think what else he said
A. Did he ask you for a clothed picture like a portrait picture
D. He just asked for a picture
A. Okay okay
D. And he wanted to know if uh an envelope that he had sent with some pictures and notes had arrived
A. Okay, and had that envelop arrived
A. Okay and what were the pictures of
D. Uh they were of uh Fleet Sr. and Goldie Hawn
D. And….Fleet Sr. and some cement czar or something
A. So, I'm sorry
D. A some person W.T. Ray or something like that
D. And then uh….there were uh notes inside of the envelope
A. Okay, what what were the notes about
D. Uh…..the notes said, one of 'em said Goldie was at our New Year's party
D. Um and then there were two notes that were very much alike and they only had a couple words different
D. And then and some changes in in numbers and he's…..was uh making a reference supposedly to um…..a caption that was on one of the pictures about him being um devils devilishly good looking
D. And it said that uh this reporter must've been drunk….or on drugs to write this about me um something about his age, he was going to be 87 years old
D. And……
C. I have photocopies of those photographs
A. An and actually do you still have the originals of those
A. And again I would ask for the same thing if we could have the originals to make copies of the originals
D. And on one of them…..uh…..he had first written 75
D. For his age and then over the top of 75 wrote 87
D. And on another one he had written like, underneath the like was a T and he just wrote over the T with an L
C. Tyke tyke and the like
A. Okay so he he again wrote little tyke
A. Okay, which refers to you
A. Okay, now if I understand correctly there was some sort of a sex assault that occurred up in Aspen, is that correct……and that involved Fleet White Sr. or Fleet White Jr.
A. Okay when did that occur
D. In the '70s, the early '70s
D. Maybe…..sometime in there
A. Okay where did this occur at
D. At their house in Aspen
A. At Fleet and Nyla's house in Aspen
A. Okay….ballpark um do you remember about what year you were in in school, think that's pretty good
D. Uh……no I really don't
A. Okay cause kinda goin' kinda going back by school record here um what was it 9th grade, 8th grade um I mean you started reportin' a lot of absences um as kinda at that time is that when the sex the sex assaults occurred up in Aspen
D. I don't know it might've been in even the 6th grade
D. I mean I'm not real sure
A. Okay, and is that same um who was present at the house in Aspen when that occurred
D. Um it would've been my grandma and grandpa
D. Spraig and Fleet and Nyla
A. Okay…..okay now….we have, okay your grandma and granpa Spraig…..is that your grandfather that died if February
A. Of '66
A. That's another set of grandparents right
D. Same grandma
A. Got it…….all right so same same grandmother, different grandfather
A. You lost me for just a second now
C. We could call and have the photograph photocopy brought over
A. Okay, that'd be fine
C. So (inaudible)
(Sound of door opening.)
A. So Grandpa Spraig is not the one that died in 1966
A. Okay, who's that
D. My Grandpa Christof
A. Same grandma though……correct
A. Okay and her name is
D. Alice
A. Okay so Alice is the same, Grandpa Christof is the one that um initially contacted Fleet White and had some sort of a major disagreement, argument back in 1966 on his birthday and that's when he died of a heart attack
A. Is that correct, okay and back in '66 that was after the start of the very first sexual assaults, is that correct
B. Can I ask you something
A. Could you close that door please
B. Yeah
D. Sure
B. Can I ask you some clarification was was your Grandpa Christof involved in any of this
B. He was, so both sets of grandparents (Door closing) excuse me, grandparents were involved in the sexual assaults, both grandfathers excuse me
D. Yes uh-huh
B. Were involved in the sexual assaults to to the same degree
D. …um…no I I'd say that with my Grandpa Christof there was a lot more of the family connection with the Whites
D. I mean that...oh…the the, the family connection was in the beginning between my Grandpa Christof, Gordon Ghristof
D. And Fleet White who went to school with each other
A. So Gordon and Fleet were buddies from school
A. Okay and they were the ones together that initially started the sexual assaults on you….does that make sense
D. ...Right
A. Okay um was it always the two or did your grandfather start it, I mean who was the very first person to sexually assault you, does that make sense
D. Yeah I think the very first person to sexually assault me was Mackie Boykin
A. Okay the this guy that got arrested in 1980
A. Was the very first person that sexually assaulted you
D. That I can remember
A. Okay…..and along the time line
D. Uh but at this, around that same time things were going on with Fleet White and my grandpa, I mean I don't know, this is really hard for me to say who's first, who's second
D. I mean it's like
A. It's a long time ago
A. And you were very young…..understand that
B. Could could, since we're on the subject, could we talk about uh Mr. Mackie here for a second, he was convicted of sexual assault on you
B. Back in, back when 19
(Knock on door)
B. Back in 19, what year was it
D. Um '80
B. 1980, okay did that actually go to trial, was there a plea bargain involved (inaudible)
D. There was a plea bargain
B. Okay and which police department investigated that
D. Uh Inyo County
B. Inyo County
B. Can you spell that for me
D. I Y, I N Y O
B. Y O, okay and you were the victim
C. Sheriff's sheriff's or police, I'm sorry
B. SO investigated (inaudible)
D. Uh it's the sheriff's department
D. And then dist the District Attorney's office
B. Okay…..did you get copies of the report by chance
C. No I didn't
B. Okay, so they investigated the case and it was plea bargained out but you were the victim on that
B. Were there any other victims in that case
B. Including family members
B. Your sister, nobody else came up in that
D. Yeah my sister did and
B. She came up as a victim
D. And…..after some time she wanted she didn't want to talk about any abuse and at the very, towards the very end it was my understanding that she uh told…..the District Attorney's office that she had witnessed some things happening to me and that some, I don't know I'm pretty sure that she said that something had happened to her
B. But he was convicted for that crime
B. Okay with you as the victim
B. Do you know his whereabouts now
D. Yeah he's dead
B. He's dead, okay, died in prison or
D. No he he died in November of '96
B. And did you ever testify in any uh any of the preliminary hearings
B. Motion hearings or any of that stuff
A. You said he died in November of '96, where was he at when he died
D. He was um at my mom and stepdad's place in Trona
A. Okay so now….uh did he go to prison in 1980
D. He went to county jail
D. For 10 months
A. Okay, so within a year he was back out on the street
A. Okay, did he sexually assault you after he got out of jail
A. Okay…..and this is some sort of a plea agreement that he went to jail for
D. Uh-huh he pleaded no contest
A. Okay……okay………again let's start with 90 and start goin' back um and actually let me jump if we could to the last time um……Fleet White Jr. sexually assaulted you….that was in like '76, '78 something like that, is that right um…do you remember specifically when that last time was or more do you remember the uh event of that um…..uh what occurred during that last time I mean
D. I I
A. Looks looks like you had a you could tell me about Senior the very last time, could you tell me about Junior the very last time….he sexually assaulted you
D. Um…ya but can I take a break before I do that please
A. You can take a break
A. It's about 4
D. Sounds good
A. 4:20 in the afternoon, we'll go ahead and stop the tape okay
C. You you started to explain something
D. No I it's just pretty gruesome
D. And I just
C. Wanted to build up speed
A. That's fine we can do that
B. You can go outin the lobby and take a
D. Can I
B. Stretch your legs
A. Sure you want to stretch your legs, walk you out front um
(Door opening.)
A. Like I said you know (inaudible) Lee
C. Please that'd be great uh…and I have a runner bringing over the folder
C. And I may even be able to get them to retrieve the uh the video camera
C. So I can
A. We actually we can take the tape and make
C. The only problem is that there….there's some portions of that tape that are (inaudible)
(Conversation taking place out of the interview room)
A. That's fine
C. (inaudible) nothing interesting
A. That's fine, why don't you walk with her, when you're ready we'll all come back in in about 5 minutes
A. Sure, first of all I think she did a very good job
A. Think she's doin' a very good job
(Door closing.)
A. Um
C. She she she's struggling a little bit, she has
C. A gosh, I mean and it's and it's…..it's wild but it's not you know
C. It hold up I think but….
A. She she has a lot of information in her and that's why I want to take it nice and slow
A. And break it down into little pieces
C. I appreciate where it's going
A. Nope that's fine
C. Okay okay
A. (inaudible) we'll take it to where it goes
C. (inaudible) okay
C. Um like someone rushing to the last page of the history of the world
(Door opening, participants walking out, door closing.)
(End side 2, tape 1.)
C. You're doing very well, you know what Nancy, as thorough and tedious as this is you won't have to repeat this…maybe one or two more times…Over a period…you know a substantial period I'm really proud of you, help me help you ok
D. Well I mean (inaudible) even think about that and I (inaudible) and I just wanted to be able to tell them about those phone conversations now while they were on it… (inaudible)
C. It..it must be (inaudible) oops I'm sorry
C. (inaudible I'm tempted to ask her to fax it here
D. Ya
C. Should I try and call her and see if she could fax it (inaudible)
D. Yea
B. Lee did you get your coffee
C. No..no I didn't (inaudible)
B. Ok, did you get cream in it last time
C. I did..I did, I thank you so much
A. You can close that door while they are getting you coffee
C. Well I've...I've hidden uh the most recent Fleet White photograph it's lost in my office some where
A. Ok
C. That's where it's at so, sorry about that..ummm the…the video tape will be brought…will be brought to me (inaudible) (noise)
C. Or (inaudible) I'm not sure
A. Here
C. Yes sir
A. Ok, let me tell the front desk that it's coming in and they….(inaudible)
C. I think they are aware….did I make it clear to them (inaudible)
A. Let just make sure
C. Ok, thank you
C. (inaudible) (both talking) thanks…thanks
A. Here you go
C. Thank you
B. So were all the uh…these interviews with your therapists were they recorded (inaudible)
B. Just did notes
C. And as I mentioned she's available to call her
A. They're gonna make sure that comes, (inaudible) (talking) he's having the video tape run over..
B. Ok
A. As soon as that comes over we can umm it's gonna come to Ann's desk, and it's gonna stay on Ann's desk
C. I can umm…I can umm we could call the therapist and she could fax
A. That's fine…we'll…we'll deal with it in a little bit, umm let me back up just a little bit…where we…where did we leave off here umm
B. Oh we were...we were actually talking about Mr. Mackey here…..
D. And now you're talking about Fleet White (inaudible) where was the last time that
A. Okay, we were getting ready to start there
D. I can remember something happened (D & B talking)
A. Ok, is there anything you want to talk about before we talk about that incident
D. I would like to…to have that those notes from Fleet White
D. Because I could be more precise on a conversation if I see it…the date it was sent from Aspen
A. Ok, and those the actual notes are where
C. In my office, I could run over there and get them
A. Ok, you want to do that
C. (inaudible) (C & B talking)
C. It'll be helpful
C. You want to come with me or do you want to wait here
C. Ok
A. Do you want us to keep going
D. No, I'd rather wait
A. Ok, we could do that
D. It's important
A. We can do that
C. I'll be right back
A. Alright
C. (inaudible) Sussex 1 Building
B. (inaudible) oh, oh (inaudible) (talking from all)
A. No that's fine we'll get it started here, when we get going…..I'll just sit in here and chat with her
A. For a little bit so, that's fine we can wait until uh...Lee gets back. We'll close the door though cause there's a lot of….(inaudible) that's why everybody wanders back and forth so…Pick up a lot external noise that we don't need to, so you think those notes
Will help you kind of refresh exactly what was said during that conversation with uh..
D. Well (inaudible) (D & B talking)
D. I had more than one with him
D. And I had one with Nyla
A. His wife
A. Did any of these conversations involve money or anything
A. Umm
D. That's why I want the notes
A. Ok, and that's...that's I'm hearing that third...third hand umm the District Attorney's had some information about that or something umm but he didn't really what's that about, I mean what are we talking about before you get your notes or we'll kind of just fill it if you wouldn't mind.
D. I want to wait
A. Ok, you want to wait until you get the notes (B&D talking)
D. And there is a reason I want to wait
D. Because of…what I've already mention about there being a 75 and then a 87 written over the 75
A. OK, and that's I wasn't real clear, do that have to do with his name or something or is that
D. No, that was the amount of money that was offer to me
A. Ok, so Fleet White…so I guess that's what I'm not understanding. So Fleet White so the money he talked about didn't have anything to do with his age, it had to do with Fleet White Sr. offering some money
A. Ok, for
D. If I would keep my mouth shut about what I know
A. Ok, now is this specific to what you know about
D. (B&D talking) And I told him I didn't want any of his money but
A. Ok, now does this have to do with keeping you mouth shut uh...about Fleet White Sr. and Fleet White Jr. or does this have to do with keeping your mouth shut on the homicide that I'm currently investigating, the Ramsey homicide
D. No, it has to do with I...it wasn't anything in general. I think it was more about everything that I know
A. Ok, now do you also...and I know I'm kind of jumping ahead just a little bit and umm and umm when Lee gets back in we'll kind of break this down specifically. Do you have information on the Ramsey homicide
D. Yes I do
A. Ok, then we'll get back to that then, umm the homicide itself or Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey? John and Patsy Ramsey
D. The homicide itself
A. Ok, umm have you ever met John and Patsy Ramsey
D. I want to wait to answer that question
A. Ok, ok I'm gonna make notes and make sure that I don't forget to any any
D. I won't leave here without
A. Fair enough
D. That being discussed because I think it's very important
D. To a lot of people
A. Ok…..(inaudible) umm so Alice is your grandmother
A. Umm, Christoff is that right
D. And it's...and it's C. .H…R…I…S…T..
A. One more time C..H
D. R…I…S…T…O…F…F
A. Ok, that's grandfather
A. And he died 02-06- of 66
A. And Sprague's is the new grandfather
A. Ok, and he's still alive along with your grandmother
A. Where does she live
D. My grandmother lives with me
A. Ok where
D. I think he died in 92, I'm not sure
A. Ok...ok and I have
D. Oh you know what umm something else that I would really like for you to see is on that tape and it was umm sent by Fleet White to my grandmother
A. Fleet White Sr. or Jr.
D. Fleet White Sr
D. To my grandma and it was sent to Alice Christoff
D. And it I believe it was sent in January but I have the actual envelope and everything. And it was my grandfather's umm death notice
A. Ok and that would be
D. My grandpa Christoff
A. Death notes in 66
A. Ok…ok and that's also on that video but you have a real copy of that some place
A. Ok, umm now are we talking about the Christoff, Alyce Christoff and grandfather Christoff is that your moms mom...mom and dad
A. Ok umm are your dads mom and dad involved in any of this at all
D. Mm-huh
A. Cause they're both sets of parents
A. Are involved, ok lets do it this way. So that's mom K..R..E..B..S, your dad
D. Is Don (low voice)
A. Ok, your moms mom is Alyce
D. Mm-huh, and that's umm A..L..Y..C..E
A. And first one was Christoff, what's your dad…your grandfather's first name
D. Gordon
A. Ok, and Sprague's first name
D. Albert
A. That's P..R..A..G..G..S
D. S..P..R..A..G..U..E…, I have some..I've note that (inaudible)
A. Ok, he died in uh 92
A. Any other grandfathers, just two husbands Alyce just had two
A. Ok, your dads...your dads moms name
D. Lois
A. L..O..I..S
A.. And her last name
D. Krebs and my grandpa's name is Harold
A. Harold
A. And they were both also involved in sexually assaulting you
A. Ok, and it's Boykin…B. Y..K..I..N
A. Is your moms name right
A. Is she married now
D. No, she's in the process of getting a divorce
A. Ok, and what's her husbands name now
D. Thomas
A. Thomas Boykin
A. So they were divorced in 2000
D. They're in the process (talking D&B) (inaudible)
A. In the process ok and your...your mom and dad divorced in 1968 is that right
D. Well, I was trying to think about that. I know that they were separated and then they got back together when I was around 10
A. Ok, so separated in 68
D. Yea, and I think that my mom didn't actually get a divorce from my dad until...we moved to Trona
A. Trona California
D. And he hadn't been living with us for quite awhile. And that's when I think she actually got her divorce
A. In about what year would that be
D. Mmm, it was probably 77, 76 somewhere in there
A. Ok, umm as we're kind of sitting here umm we talked about Fleet White Jr last time was umm 76 through 78 umm again I think it's real important to try and figure out at least for me…umm try to figure out how that corresponds to when you were in school.
Umm only because that kind of gives us somemore…you know if you were...whatever age you were in school you know if we can equate that to a specific time...from there we can figure out you know when it occurred umm but it kind of gives us a time line (inaudible)
D. It would have been 8th or 9th grade
A. Ok, again we can
D. The end of the 8th grade, it had...had it been after March of 1978
A. Why does that date stick out
D. Because that's when we moved to Trona
A. Ok, March of 76
A. Ok, umm so it's after March of 76 and before your were in the 8th grade in 76 is that right then
A. Ok, and any other specific dates that kind of stand out of your mind. As far maybe the last time that it occurred. Again I'm just trying to put together a time line
D. No I don't…I mean it has been so many different things that it's hard to remember dates
D. I have a really hard time remember dates or when
A. Mm-huh, and that's maybe events in your life might be a better calender for you...Umm now as we look back maybe umm start of high school that sort of thing umm I mean those...those could be our calender as they were. Umm to kind of help break down those things that occurred, we could do that...so again kind of think about umm this happened before the end of high school...before the start of high school umm during high school years during junior high school years umm during the grade school
Years and again kind of…that would at least break us up into little bit areas…different areas umm so we can kind of keep track at least for me to keep track of when…when different things occurred ok. So the notes that you got from umm umm Fleet Sr.
A. Umm Lee has copies of those, and those kind of brings us around and give us an idea of what we're talking about
D. And why I was concerned for my safety and
A. Ok..ok
D. And I think that's really important for you to see
A. Right
B. For her…so we've had...umm…so umm Nancy what we have is mental health records authorizations basically it's a release that we're gonna need to have you sign and I know you're…offered to give those to us at this time (low voice) we can wait until Lee gets back for this…
A. Umm, again who...who's was your therapist down in a California
A. And who was that
D. Her name is Mary
A. Mary's last name
D. Bienkowski
A. Oh yea sure
B. Common spelling
D. B..I..E..N..
A. B..I..E..N
D. K..O
A. K..O
D. W
A. W
D. S..K..I..
A. S..K..I…umm does she.where's her office at
D. In XXXX but do you need her address
A. No, but you got a phone number for her
A. Cool
A. Ok, and that's her office phone number
A. Umm, do you have any other ways that you can get a hold of her
D. I don't but Lee does
A. Ok, uh
B. So who is this...excuse me just a second...so this is XXXX, that's where the faxes came from
D. Umm, it was an old partner of Mary's
B. Oh so it's from her the fax machine
A. Ok, she had PHD or MD
D. Neither
D. She's MFCC
A. MFCC
D. Uh-huh, marriage counselor and child counselor
A. FCC….is she associated with umm like the department of Social Services or is she in private practice
D. She's in private practice
D. I originally met her through umm victim witness in San Luis Obispo County
A. Ok umm
D. And she worked for the rape crisis center
A. Forward for just a second, so you met through victim witness
A. And how did that come about, were you
D. Because of several assaults that happened in umm San Luis Obispo County
A. Ok, against you
D. Mm-huh and because umm of the earlier umm of the earlier rapes with Mackey Boykin
A Mm-huh
D. I was entitled to have counseling
A. Because of those assaults
A. Ok, umm so you met Mary through victim Witness, did you say she was also a
D. Somebody in (B&D talking)
A. Rape Crisis or something
D. Somebody in victim witness introduced me to Mary who had worked for rape crisis center
A. Ok so Mary worked through...Mary worked for rape crisis at the time
A. That's when you first met
B. This other sexual assault you were talking about, were they stranger sex assaults or were those
D. No they were
B. Family members
B. It's the stuff we've been talking about or
B. Or is it something separate
D. And I also have a brother
A. Ok, and what's your brother's name
A. What's XXXX last name
A. Where's XXXX at right now
D. Well he lives in XXXX Arizona
D. I don't know where his at right now cause he travels around
A. Work related or just
D. No work related he goes to Korea and
D. Different places
A. What does he do
D. He works for uh...a corporation called XXXX
A. What…what does he
D He does something with military tanks and installing computers of something
D. I don't understand (low voice) (inaudible)
A. Umm, does XXXX have any idea what's been going on. Does he know about all of this
D. Umm, well my brother certainly knows about things that are happening in Trona
D. Umm, but he didn't...when his wife was asking he'll just tell her he didn't want to talk about it
A. Ok, we...ok, you are 32
A. 37, and XXXX is how old
A. And how old is XXXX
A. Ok...ok to keep everybody straight…umm…you talked to your therapist about these assaults. Is there anybody umm the old little lady that you talked to…or that you called when Fleet Sr. you called have you talked to her about the assaults
D. Yea, she knows
A. Ok, she knows about them
A. And her name once again
A. One more time
A. Ok, and you've got her phone number umm by how old is XXXX
A. Ok, how's her health
D. Well when I last saw her she was doing very well
A. Healthy
D Mm-huh
A. Good, umm anybody else that you talked to or told about the uh…the assaults other than the therapist and XXXX
D. What assaults...I mean assaults in general or
A. No, the sexual assaults umm I guess what I'm looking at is other than mom and dad and your sister because they all know about it. And then you talk to any other friends have you told anybody...any of your friends umm told anybody else other than DA's office (inaudible) in California during that initial assault trail umm have you talked to anybody else umm to kind of get an idea what was going on the high school counselors umm I know you mentioned one high school teacher
D. Teacher, mm-huh
A. Umm, did you tell that teacher what was happening
D. Somewhat
A. Umm, do you remember who that teacher was
D. Actually I do
D. He's name is XXXX
D. Uh-huh, XXXX
A. Ok, is XXXX a White or Black person
D. He's White
A. Ok, umm still teaching
A. Retired
A. Ok, about how old is XXXX
D. Probably in his late 60's
A. Ok, umm his...is he still around some place
D. I'm sure he is but I don't know where his at though
A. Ok, and that's umm
D. Right now (B&D) talking (inaudible)
A. With the information that you've given me I wouldn't try and find him (inaudible) but he was a high school teacher is that right
A. Where at
D. Torona High School
A. Teacher or counselor
D. Teacher
A. Ok, umm anybody else that you talked to. Anybody that you uh...told about this
D. When you say this I get confused, cause I don't know if you're speaking about the White's or you're speaking about
D. XXXX or if you're
A. Let's...lets open it right up…umm (inaudible) let me break it down to specifics…who else have you told about umm being sexually assaulted by family members Fleet White the Whites...umm Mackey in general...who else have you talked to about that.
D. Like many people...or...I mean…over the course of...of the years
D. But I been very selective in what I have said…I haven't said a whole lot
A. Ok, umm to go...to go pass the selectiveness
A. Is there anybody that you kind of…say look this is what happened to me and actually sat down with them and went through you know kind of...kind of like what you've done with XXXX. Is there anybody else that you've talked to
D A person by the name of XXXX (talking in the room)
A. Ok, and is XXXX a White person
A. Ok, and about how old is XXXX
D. Umm, 85
A. Ok, is there a way to get a hold of XXXX
A. Ok, can you give a phone number or an address
D. Umm, XXXX
A. Ok, anybody else along those lines
D. He's asking me people in my school, well I was in a...a group setting with XXXX
D. So there's probably things shared in the group
A. And that's fine XXXX
D (inaudible) (B&D talking)
A. Can cover that, umm but anybody else. Did you talk to anybody in that group on a private one to one basics. Or was it all just within a group, in a group setting
D. There's umm one person
A. Ok, and who's that
D. A XXXX
A. Ok, and is XXXX White or Black
D. White
A. And how about how old is XXXX
D. She's 34
A. Ok, umm have you talked to XXXX recently
D. Umm, yes
A. Ok, umm is there a phone number I can talk to XXXX at.. if and again these just I got to get everybody down for me to go back and…and talk to some of these people umm and again that's just
C. I have kind of (inaudible) (low voice) I feel duty bound
A. Mm-huh
C. To mention this umm first of all the signals not very strong in here but I had spoke with Mary…returning a message (inaudible) (low voice) Mary is her therapist
A. Right...right
C. Mary Bienkowski
C. Umm, apparently the San Luis Obispo sheriff's department has interview XXXX and through her interview with her they have learned that you are over her in Boulder discussing Fleet White's involvement with John Ramsey. So that's completely out there.
C. I mentioned that to you all, I don't know if I should mention it to Mr. Hunter (inaudible) (low voice)
A. I'll tell Alex then
C. Ok, and there is an immense supportive a considerable history that her therapist would (inaudible) to
C. And she's an at an extream risk
A. Ok, and that's umm you are listed as a missing person and uh
D. Yea I didn't know that
A. Ok, umm and we could deal with that when we're done with all of this
A. But…umm so XXXX… but now is that…how does XXXX fit into all this…she was with...with some sort of a group with Mary is that correct
A. Ok, and again is there some way to get a hold of XXXX if we need to umm we'll just go through Mary or do you have her phone number umm cause what...what I'm gonna have to do is kind of what umm Mr. Hunter umm (inaudible) to decide if we go ahead and personally talk to all these people or call them on the phone and that that's kind of up to you…umm somebody other than myself. Umm again I like to get as much information on everybody to try and figure out who's who so that's why basically we need to bring you back up to date umm I know she's talked to Mary she told me that Mary's (inaudible) (knock on the door) when he comes back we'll bring him up to what we're talking about
B. When did you start treatment with umm (inaudible) with umm Mary excuse me...when did you start treatment
D. I think it was in August in 90 but Mary would know better than I would
A. Ok, how about if we just put all records can we do that. That way it's non specific day. If I put down August 90 that
B. (inaudible) (? Possibly talking) I'll just make it 90
A. 2 (inaudible) ok
B. And you said we don't have her address is that right
D. I can give you her address
B. Do you have it (inaudible)
A. Oh do you have it
B. Go ahead
A. Up on the top of your head
A. Go for it
A. What city
B. XXXX
A. California
B. (inaudible) do you know the zip by chance
D. I don't know what her zip code is
B. You don't happen to know the zip code of XXXX
C. I don't have it on me sorry
B. Ok, umm Lee what we got before I forget is umm is…and I know she's agreed to do this is to release her mental health records (talking) (inaudible)
A. Is a release for mental health records. What we're asking for is she believe she started umm treatment in about August 1990 to the present time
B. (inaudible) (low voice)
A. We need you to print your name on the…not that I can't read your signature (C&D talking)
A. Ok, the only thing is uh-umm when you were gone we did a couple of things…kind of went through a family tree as it were…
C. Right (inaudible)
A. Kind of placed who everybody was (C&D talking) uh so that I could see that would make it easier. The other people we talked about are umm who all Nancy has talked to about in general, you know. The different sexual assaults instead of (inaudible) specifically each event (inaudible) talked about Mary
C. Mm-huh
A. Umm she's talked to XXXX umm which again is a person that she talked to
A. Most recently, umm XXXX who is an old high school teacher of hers
A. And again as we go through (inaudible) umm any information we can you know get on these people
C. Sure
A. So if we need to go back and locate them
A. It would be umm helpful for us. XXXX is another of uh female that she's talked to and then we got down to XXXX. And again if we have an address or a phone number for XXXX it would be helpful umm as far as us getting a hold of her
D. You know what I'm...and she's already talked with the sheriff's department in San Luis right
C. Apparently according to Mary, and Mary wouldn't tell us anything (inaudible)
D. Uh-umm
B. You want us to explain what's going on with that
B. Do you want Tom to explain again as far as the missing person, you said that you didn't know what was going on with that. Do you want us to explain or
A. You seemed kind of confused about that (inaudible)
C. She's been anticipating that…(inaudible)
A. Umm and that's you went down and visited somebody and again kind of getting this uh investigator…I...I've only talked to the investigator out there
A. (inaudible) (bad sound in tape) in San Luis Obispo is that right
A. Umm the investigator basically said that you were umm you were listed as a missing person umm went to visit somebody...They found your car that gots some suitcases and stuff in it umm and again investigator believes you know maybe they belong to grandmother your grandmother...and that's a whole other
D. That's not true
A. Old looking suitcases or something
A. Ok, are there suitcases…were there suitcases in your car
D. Mm-huh, there was a suitcase in my car
A. Is it an older looking suitcase
D. But it did not belong to my grandmother
A. Well. what they did is probably saw how it looked like an old suitcase and
A. And jumped to conclusion that it belonged to your grandmother. Umm and since you haven't been heard from in a long time like a week or so
C. (inaudible) (B&D talking)
C. Saturday evening
A. Ok, umm what they did is...they actually did enter you into the computer until last evening as a missing person. I don't know if they had a time line or something in California. So I do have the name of the investigator out in California
D. Can...can I know his name
A. Sure, umm Detective XXXX
D. I don't know him
A. Ok, he's just...he's...he's the person assigned to the case. Let me give you his phone number umm Detective XXXX it's XXXX
D. How can I be a missing person if I chose to leave for my own safety
A. And…and that's umm anytime somebody...in Colorado somebody disappears ok and people report it believes it's suspicious or you know whatever they can...and they can report you as a missing person. And what Detective XXXX needs is a phone call that says I'm ok, I'm not a missing person umm and then he can take you out of the
computer. Umm he was kind of surprise when I told him I got an interview with you this morning umm and basically for his job it's kind of easy because once you're declared as a missing… he's gonna clear you as a missing person. That means you're not gonna be in the NCIC…The National Law…National Wide Computer System as a missing person cause you're not. We know where you're at ok and that's why it's important to give Detective XXXX a call. (inaudible)
C. (Lee's phone ringing) (inaudible) Hi Mary...yes I did and of course we're very concerned and it was XXXX who umm made statements to the San Luis Obispo Sheriff's….Detective XXXX…mm-huh...mm-huh (on phone talking) oh they ran her credit cards and they found…ok...ok...ok...ok...no…I don't know where they're getting that information from. Umm Mary…this morning when you faxed umm me the materials you faxed umm the most recent correspondence from Fleet White Sr. a note with the 85 umm or 87, 75 and the pictures with Goldie Hawn with Fleet do you have those two pages available to you…would it be possible to get it faxed those again to me
A. Is your fax not good enough
C. Can I…can I give you a…a different fax number
C. It's XXXX
C. XXXX
C. XXX to my attention please and umm do you all want to speak with
A. No we'll talk to her later
C. We're a...we're in conference with umm detectives who've been very helpful and very courteous and things are going very well. Of course umm Nancy obviously very concerned about the uh…you know the connection to Boulder…do you feel safe…I don't know…I don't know unless XXXX mentioned something ok…well…one...one thing that they did…one way that they may know that she's in
Boulder is the Boulder Police Department has had contact with the San Luis Obispo Police Department. That..that's how they include Boulder…ok..ok…well that's (B&C talking) (inaudible)
D. Or did…did XXXX actually say that I had been….that I was in Boulder Colorado
C. I do…we don't know that
A. (inaudible) I haven't talk to him
D. Ok (inaudible)
C. We don't know that…right that's how they…that's how they know ok…and they had contact uh as a result to the NCIC missing persons registration…and…and so she will be cleared from that shortly but that's how they know in Boulder. Now you mentioned…you mentioned connection to Fleet White in the Ramsey investigation...XXXX mentioned that to the police...ok...ok...ok...ok...alright...alright thank you bye
A. Ok so let me...let me finish giving you Detective XXXX pager number it's XXXX, and he's a detective with the San Luis Obispo (B&D talking)
D. Mind if I call back will that stop that right now
A. Yea that's….that's something (coughing) (inaudible) all he's gonna do is take you out of the computer...Doesn't matter because nobody gonna contact you while we're sitting in here ummm
B. All it is...is a welfare check basically. If an officer would stop you on the highway out in Utah or something they would have said hey are you ok, you would have said yes they would have called the detective and say hey take her out she's ok...You can talk (low voice) (inaudible)
B. You know it's not a warrant, it's nothing at all it's just a welfare check
D. Ok, I…I have a really really big concern now because I'm not saying how I got from San Luis Obispo
C. No one's asking you (inaudible)
D. To Los Angles, yea
D. I'm not going to
A. And that
B. Why is that a big deal
C. She's concerned about the safety of her therapist whose received telephone threats and menacing statements from her grandmother who happens to (inaudible) (low voice)
A. Ok, so your concern is towards your therapist
A. Ok, and do you have a concern for your safety right at this moment right now
D. Yea, I do
D. I didn't want anybody to know that I was here
D. And for…because I can guarantee you that my grandma's has been on the phone with Fleet White and told him that I'm here
A. Ok, and that's…and some of this is safety issue that we have to deal with also
A. Ok, and again (inaudible) ok
B. Let me ask you real quick, who's car was it that was left out there
D. Mine
B. It was yours, and where did you leave it
D. I left it at a shopping mall
B. At a shopping mall
B. Ok, and...and it did have luggage in it
D. Yes it did
B. Ok, is there a reason why you would not take luggage with you
D. Yes there is because umm a person that drove me to Los Angles and I...we felt that we were being followed so I didn't even grab the suitcase
D. I just left, just the clothes I had on
A. Can we back up just a little bit, so the photographs and stuff that we've talked about earlier these photographs are they still at your grandmothers house or are they some place else
D. Umm, they're some place else
A. Ok, they're not
D. Some of them might be, I don't know which ones I..I took...I have a couple of different places I have things
A. Ok, generally I guess what I'm looking at is there evidence out there is there information out there umm that the originals of photographs that can be destroyed
D. Yea, there could be some stuff destroyed
A. Ok, but you also have some other stuff, that won't be destroyed is that correct
A. Ok, now jump back for our information will give me XXXX phone number if I need to…umm again it sounds like she's already talked to the sheriffs out there umm
D. (inaudible) XXXX
A. It that XXXX
D. No. XXXX
A. XXXX, ok is there anybody else that you talked to about this about in general what's occurred
D. I think those are the main
A. Ok, we've talked about just a moment ago, that your grandmother will be calling Fleet White Sr. or Jr.
D. Sr.
D. I'm sure it's already done
A. Ok...ok lets take a step back umm we got off in a tangent a little bit, you were gonna tells us about the last encounter…the last sexual encounter with Fleet White Jr. back anywhere from 76 t0 78…umm cause we were talking just a little bit about
D. And you're gonna turn your tape on
A. Oh ya, the last sexual encounter with Fleet White Jr. umm around the time of 1976, 1978 umm tell me...uh lets start over with that…tell me about that
D. Well can I…can we stop that for a minute
D. Cause I have some real safety issues now
C. I know...I know can I talk to you (inaudible) (door closing?) (inaudible)
A. Ok, hold on just a second let me see if I got the fax (inaudible)
C. Ok...we're gonna take care of this
C. (low voice with B&C) ok well she...she apparently told Mrs. B (Both talking in a low voice)
D. I never…I never told her that
C. You never told her that
E. How are you doing
C. Not very well, and so it's been (inaudible) also an issue (inaudible) you know (tape noise volume went up) it's a very small town
E. I heard you
C. The Boulder Police contacted the San Luis Obispo and told them that they were going to be here…San Luis Obispo umm… (inaudible) an issue of San Luis Obispo umm is it's a very small town
E. What about the size of (inaudible)
D. It's 35,000
E. Is it
C. And…and in the past you know umm I mean the word gets out real quickly and as we expressed umm that has a great concern to a degree that the hindrance will be um what will happen next…I mean what's happening now… does she feel strongly (inaudible) of course Fleet White Sr. has already been contacted by her…
E. By whom
D. I guarantee you that
E. By your grandma
E. Ok...ok so lets assume that…I'm just trying to take this a little further down the road here. Lets assume that umm and lets assume further that Fleet White Jr. has been contacted...ok umm so we've had safety issues that we've worried about even before all of this right here.
C. Uh-umm
E. And we've been concerned the last three days (inaudible)
C. Absolutely and this
E. So we're just…we're…I mean it's sort of more of the same we're just gonna have to weigh
D. No…I..I say that up's everything and I'll tell you what…those people will be dumping things like crazy...knowing that I'm here
C. It s up the case (inaudible) you know it's like calling them and saying shred you know shred…
E. Oh and we know just because of the of the…of the you know the allegations about the offers of money that they...you'd think they'd…
C. Well they…
E. Already concerned
C. …..aware of the concern however umm nothing umm I mean there concerned about lots of things and the direct action to this case has made very...very pointedly clear by
D. And also
C. A report from the Boulder Police that she's been interviewed here today
E. Well I think…all around if I'm understanding…I don't know cause I haven't talked to anybody
E. In San Luis Obispo that's it's all around the missing person thing. I mean and…and we
C. Which we understand
E. We anticipated that umm well. here's…here's a suggestion I have for your concern umm I think this is a very helpful interview
C. Yes, it is
E. Yea, I think so…and uh
C. She hasn't even gotten started with the interview
E. She needs to get started if you have the strength to do that, so that we
D. I know they're going for stuff that really
C. That has...has very little to do with the crediability
E. Well…I..I think except I..I think they're about to get into that
C. Ok...ok
P96-211871
E. Umm and…and I just would like you know umm I think you're doing terrific...I just would urge you to stay with this so that we can do...so we're able to go
D. And...and my other concern and it's a major concern for me is that my therapist drove me to Los Angles
D. And my family is not going to…think very kindly of that
C. There's absolutely no harm, she has no responsibility...you're not a ward of your family you're not a independent child
E. (inaudible)
C. (inaudible) (D&E talking)
E. I mean I'm sounding pretty impress with your therapist especially you know I understand she's you know and (inaudible) background and so on and she can handle this
C. She…she…she….
E. You know I'm concerned about you and umm I just I think we should move forward so that uh
C. Oh absolutely we're prepared to do that but umm
E. Ok
C. I wanted to (inaudible) (C&E talking)
E. And then we'll have to...we'll have to work through some of the security things
C. Ok, (inaudible) (C&E talking)
E. As best we can
D. You both make me feel very safe to even want to talk now (B&C&E talking)
E. Well
D. It's like an automatic shut off
E. Well you need to talk to Lee and...and...and take guidance from him on that cause I think you're doing fine and uh…we need…we need to uh…get on down the road with this
D. I…I have some things that are very valuable and I…I have feared for my life for along time. That's true but I think the things that I have and the connections that I can make are gonna freak those people right out.
C. Is...is...is it I wonder if there's any basis for us to go into (inaudible) security you know. I mean you know she…she will give them everything she needs to make a California case for unlawful imprisonment
E. Mm-huh
C. Right now
E. Well lets…lets get that done and then that…that is gonna give the basis for us to answer that question
C. Oh ok...ok
C. And sorry thank you for listening
E. And I will...and then...and then we'll ..we'll deal with these security issues, I think to your satisfaction
C. Thank you…..Nancy I'm sorry
D. Well I told you that last night
C. Right you have a feeling (inaudible)
D. Mm-huh, I felt it and let me tell you what I was scared sick last night. I just felt that they were doing something
C. Well we have you in the right place
D. And..(inaudible)
C. Unfortunately ok…(inaudible)
D. Mm-huh, because they've done that before
D. They've actually taken my computer
C. (inaudible) with respect to what we're doing now, I mean in many ways you have crossed the river Kahn you've heard that expression...I don't remember what it means...it's a river that the Greece and the Romans crossed and once they crossed it they were in the territory where they had to continue living for where there's know turning back. That's where you are right now and so as patient as you can be and as much as you can help them get the information they need every step (inaudible) (noise in room) you continue to disclose will help these people help you and umm they're aware of your concerns and they'll become more aware of your concerns as you explain more about the background
D. Ok...can I...can I share with you now that's it's here
D. And it...that's and that's from Mary…ok can I see the notes please
A. Oh yea
D. I want to see how
A. Ok, so we...looks like we got 3 pages from Mary right
A. It looks like we got 3 fax pages from Mary (coughing) (inaudible) and a cover sheet
Umm 2 pages are photographs and again the quality of photographs...umm top photographs that's Goldie Hawn
A. And Fleet White Sr.
A. Ok, and the bottom photograph is who
D. Umm Fleet White Sr. and this person
D. Cement Czar…W. T. Ray
A. And do you know Cement Czar…W.T…W. T. Ray…
D. I didn't recognize him (inaudible)
A. Ok, Fleet White Sr.
A. Ok, and it says January 2000 Denver Post, I take this photograph is out of the Denver Post
D. I guess so
A. January 2000, ok do you need to write that on there
D. Nope
D. And then on...it's...it's really hard to see on this copy but in his own writing he's put Goldie up here on the top
A. Ok...ok umm so this is a photograph bottom of the photograph looks like it appears in
the Denver Post from January of this year umm and of Fleet and this cement person
A. Ok and you had to other pages there looks like ones a let me start with this one
D. Ok
A. To get this out of the way, this is from Fleet White uh..1-90, no 93 master circle Costa Mesa California
D. But it was sent from Aspen Colorado
A. Ok, this is an address in Costa Mesa that Fleet Sr. lives in
A. Correct, ok and he has "To Alyce" who is your grandmother that you live with and again it was sent from Aspen Colorado February 9, 2000
A. Ok, (inaudible_ (talking B&D)
D. But it was sent to my grandma's first name Christoff
D. Not her current name is Sprague
A. Correct
D. Which has major significance to me because of what I was telling you about my grandfather
A. Ok, and you're talking about major significant because Fleet Sr. and your grandfather Christoff…(coughing) it has major significance because your grandfather Christoff the granddad Christoff and Fleet Sr. were having an argument back in February 6 of 66 when your grandfather died
D. And the only other thing that has come to my house address like this in...in the name of Christoff is his...the
C. His…his funeral notice
C. His...his...his funeral umm the calling card that was distributed at…his funeral
A. Ok...ok
C. That was sent to her recently
A. Ok that's all (inaudible) (A&C talking)
C. That's all calling attention (inaudible) and that's recorded on the video tape that we used (inaudible) (A & C talking)
A. Okay, so this is just…this is a photo copy a fax copy of the envelope that your grandmother received with the two previous mentioned photographs and then three…three notes that you have shown me
D. Right and I would like to say also that...that to me this means something...umm SOS
C. SOS is a misspelling probably a deliberate one of Los Oso's
A. Ok, Los Oso's California ok...ok and you also have three notes there
D. And I'd like to tell you something...I took this envelope out of my mail box and did not give it to my grandma. I went directly to my friend Mrs. B's house…XXXX
D. And opened it in front of P96-21871
A. Okay, so you actually have this envelope some place and these notes and photographs some place
A. Not at your grandmother's house
A. Ok, tell me about the three notes with the photo copy under one page here
D. And I think that..that the note show a lot better
D. The actual notes
D. That this is a 75 and over the top of it is written 87
C. Have you explained to them what the phone call regarding 75
A. Just a little bit we haven't got into that all the way yet umm so tell me..tell me what this first note says
D. I said I think..I think the reporter must have been drunk to write something like that about a and then it's…there's 75
D. And then 87 over the top dear old man
A. Ok, and that has to do with that first…the picture of the Cement Czar and him ok
(cough) the second note
D. II think the reporter must have been crazy or drunk for him to write something in..on there note you can see a lot better it says tike underneath
D. With an "L" written over it
D. Like about…about a 87 year old man
D. And then this note says Goldie came to our New Year's party
D. Which I was invited to go
D. To there New Year's party in Aspen Colorado
A. What year was that
A. Ok, now
D. Or 1999 whatever (inaudible) (talking)
A. (inaudible) 1999 to 2000
A. Now tell me how these notes fit in with your phone call reference the money and stuff like that cause that's where we stop so you could get these notes
C. Oh thank you (talking in the background)
D. The reason I wanted to see this..is because the date on here it..that I wanted to make sure that I was right about the time that he was calling
D. And I wanted to see your calender again, cause that will help me tremendously
A. Ok, we'll do it this way..February 7th is a Monday..February 8th is a Tuesday. Does that help or do you want to see Lee's Calender. This would have came in on Wednesday February 9th
D. This is Monday
A. February 7th was a Monday
D. See I can not be exact on the
D. These calls..I just
D. I'm trying to think..I..I know that..I'm pretty sure that there was no call made on Saturday. I don't think that there was a call made on Sunday and then I think that there was another call made on Monday
A. Ok, generally tell me about the calls, umm even though you can't say ok on Saturday this is what was said. Sunday this was what was said, tell me what was said during the conversations of the calls
D. Well the first call umm when ever that came
D. Was from umm Fleet White and
A. Sr or Jr...Sr
D. Sr
D. And umm he talked to my grandmother
D. And umm they were talking about how she was feeling, I could only hear one side of the conversation…my grandma's side of the conversation
D. And he…she told him that her Parkensins was really bothering her that she was quite ill, that she wasn't able to see very well. And he…he was talking to her about her illness at first
D. And then he asked if he could speak to me
D. And he like I tried telling you…whenever he speaks to me…he speaks to me in a manner of like I'm a child
D. And he'll start reverting back to like I'm a child. And he was asking me how his favorite girl was how was I doing umm would I come to Aspen
D. To see him because his wife Nyla was gone
A. Ok, is that everything that occurred during the first phone call
D. That I could remember right now
A. OK, tell me about the second phone call, not so much when it occurred, just tell me generally
D. Ok, the second call
D. Was that same day whatever day that was
D. From nyla
D. To my grandma
D. Then Nyla was asking my grandma how she was doing, how she was feeling and my grandma said to Nyla..what is…what's going on about that…and this is what my grandma said that JanBonet case…what…what do you know about the JanBonet case
D. And then umm ok…I…I want to get this just as good as I can…my memory umm…she said what's going on with the JanBonet case. My grandma said well you have to ask Nyla that..and Nyla started talking to her and she said…well here…here's Nancy and so Nyla started talking to me about umm that umm Fleet was very disturbed that he spending spending all of his Fleet Jr…
D. Was very disturbed…was spending all his time and all of his money on trying to find the murder of JonBenet and that umm…the next thing I asked her was well how is Daphne doing and she said, well Daphne is fine. Daphne has a lot of friends and Daphne is very resilient and she talked about something about how something she missed the most was the sharing of their dolls
D. But that she was very resilient that she was doing fine. And then she up…also told me that Fleet Jr. and…
(end of side A)
A. Did that occur
D. Let see…I'm not sure of the date. But I can verify the date later..I think the content
D. On the conversation is probably a lot more important
D. And that was umm if I remember correctly it was a phone call to my grandma in the afternoon
D. And he spoke to my grandma for a little bit just very basic things…how are you feeling and what's going on. And then my gram..he asked my grandma if he could talk to me, cause my grandma gave me the phone
D. And he asked me how…how was his little girl and everything and he said that he wanted to ummm make sure that I wouldn't speak to anybody…about what I knew
D. And he said something about if I gave you $75,000.00 would that stop you from talking. And I said I don't want any money, I won't say anything
D. Because that…
A. Now is this what you knew about what, do you understand what I'm saying
D. He didn't..he didn't say what
D. (inaudible) (A&D talking) but I think
A. What do you…what do you believe he was talking about
D. I think that he was talking about everything that I know from my childhood, everything that I know about the recent event that took place in Boulder
A. Ok, lets stop there tell me what event took place in Boulder? What…what is that
D. The death of JonBenet Ramsey (?)
A. Ok, and what do you know about that
D. I know that the day after Christmas, I received a call from my mom and
D. That I was at work, and it was a day after or two days after I'm not really clear about that but it was in the…in a couple of days (cough) after the actual murder
D. And she said to me had I seen the television, that they had umm Fleet White she was talking about Sr..Fleet White Sr as a suspect. That she had seen it on some television program
A. Ok, so this one to two days after
D. And she was calling me from my sister's house in Arvada
D. At least that's what she told me, that she was in Arvada at my sister's house
D. I don't have anyway to prove that just that…that's where she told me she was
A. Mm-huh, so she's
D. And that Fleet White Sr was a suspect and that it talked about him and his oil company on his Extra show
A. Ok, that was the name of the show that it was talking about this
D. That's what she said
A. Ok, what else did…did it talk about (inaudible)
D. Umm she had told that she had been with my niece XXXX to Fleet and Pricilla White's party…their Christmas party
A. Ok, when was that
D. When was their Christmas party
A. Yea, when was Fleet and Pricilla's Christmas party that she was at
D. That she had just recently been like
D. To the…their Christmas…I
C. Some people have Christmas parties on other days beside Christmas
C. You understood her to be
D. Christmas day
A. Ok, so your mom and your niece is your sister's XXXX…
A. Went to the White's house on what you believe was on Christmas day
A. 1996, and your niece is your sister's XXXX…
A. XXXX daughter
C. (inaudible) (low voice)
C. Your notes
D. No, XXXX
C. And how old is she
D. Her full name
C. How old is she do you know
A. How old is XXXX now, that's easy
D. Umm, I mean I should know this but my brain is
A. Are you getting tired
D. She's 8
A. And so she's 8 years old now, so three years ago she would have been 5
D. Her birthday is in December
A. What's her birthday
D. The 12th or the 13th
A. Ok, so your mom took XXXX umm over to the White's house
D. That was what I was told
A. Ok, umm just during the day
C. Can…can I ask you something…you said Christmas day…day time or night time…did..did she say
D. She did not
C. She didn't specify
A. So sometime during Christmas day umm your mom took XXXX over to the White's house
A. But she didn't say day or night or
A. How long they stayed or anything
A. Okay umm lets keep going
D. Ok and the next thing I remember about that was receiving a phone call from my grandma
D. (inaudible) by her (inaudible) and she called and…excuse me…start talking to me about Fleet White
D. And she said to me you know he's guilty. But she also was speaking about Fleet Sr not Fleet Jr
D. That's how I took it, in the way that she was talking to me
A. Ok..how..how did she know that Fleet Sr as it were umm was guilty
D. That's just what she..that's what she said to me
D. It's Fleet Sr
A. It's Fleet Sr who did the homicde
D. And she said that he'll never get caught, he'll never get caught. I remember
D. Her saying that to me. I don't remember anything else about the conversation but that
seemed important to me at the time
A. Ok, and again there talking about Fleet Sr
A. (inaudible) ok go ahead
D. And then umm I think the next thing of importance..it had been talked about on several different occasions umm my mom and Trona told everybody that she knew about Fleet White Sr being her godfather and that you know that..I don't know what else she told them but that..you know that there was an interest in the Ramsey case with our family
A. Ok, did your mom talk to any…anybody else about that, like reporters that sort of thing
D. No..no reporters but I know that she talked to a lot of her friends
A. Ok, so mom talked to friends about your family being involved with the White family reference the…the Ramsey homicide
D. And then umm this is the next thing of..of major importance
D. It would have been umm in either the end of July or the first part of August of 98. My niece umm and nephew came over to Los Osos from
D. My niece XXXX
A. XXXX and her brother
D. XXXXX came lets see..my sister left Arvada in May of 98
D. And went to Germany and she left her children in the care of my mom. And I think for awhile my mom came to Colorado and took care of the kids probably till around the end of June or something..something in that area
D. I can't be real specific about that right now. But I know that they came to my house at the end of July or August and I think it was probably August…and I had taken XXXX and XXXX and my next door neighbor whose little boy whose about the same age
D. Right in between XXXX and XXXX and XXXX. We all went down to XXXX in the Rio Grande…and they were having a side walk sale at a Payless Drug Store
D. And XXXX was looking through some things they had these bins out and she saw…she was looking in this bin and she saw uh…a binder that had a picture of a Barbie on it and she like instantly became hysterical. Just started screaming, yelling and you know just saying umm they're gonna kill my umm guinea pig… (inaudible) they're gonna take guinea pig…they're gonna…they're gonna kill me…they're gonna kill me…and she was hysterical. So we had earlier planned to go to for pizza…and I knew that she couldn't go so I took XXXX to my car and she got in the back seat of my car I got in the front seat of my car and she just kept over and over saying that they were gonna kill her…they killed the little girl…they were gonna kill her umm and I couldn't…I couldn't reason with her…I couldn't talk to her…I couldn't get her out of it. And the whole time that the..that XXXX and XXXX and XXXX (?) were in the pizza place. They ordered pizza they had the pizza she was in the car still screaming.
A Ok, whose guinea pig were they gonna kill
D. Hers and
A. How does that figure into this whole thing
D. Well beca…because umm they would use threats to something that you really cared about.
D. I mean that's happened to me several times when I was a child. They would pick something out that they thought meant something to you and they would tell you that they were gonna kill it or they would you know they were gonna hurt it or
A. Ok, did..did XXXXX ever tell you who was making this threat towards her
A. Just they were..they
D. They…they
A. But you don't have any idea who
A. Ok, go ahead
C. Can…can I…Tom…I'm sorry when you say you don't have any idea who is that true or do you have an idea based on your experience (C&D talking)
D. Oh I have an idea
D. But she's saying they, she's not saying grandma…she's not saying
D. My daddy, my mommy. She's not giving a specific name. She's saying they but to me they would mean my family
A. Ok, as in your mom. Your mom and Dad, you mom and dad and sister
D. I would say more umm my mom
D. Umm I also think XXXX father and uh..I think you know that whoever was where ever that this took place, whoever was there
D. And so what happened after that was umm they came out, they had eaten their pizza and it was about a 6 mile drive from there to XXXX house and XXXX still in the car…in my car in the back seat and her brother and XXXX are getting into the car and she's freaking thinking that they're gonna do something to her
D. So she's trying to open up my car door, which had power locks and just screaming on the top of her lungs that they…they're gonna kill me…they're gonna at one point she said they were gonna umm chain her up they were gonna kill her…and she kept saying the same things over and over again
A. Ok (inaudible)
D. And anybody got close to her and she would just start off again
A. Is XXXX older or younger than her
D. Older and they
D. XXXX and XXXX were both in the back seat with like holding their hands over their ears because she was screaming so loud and so I dropped XXXX and XXXX and
XXXX off at XXXX house
D. And XXXX is still screaming still freaked out in the back seat. And I thought that if I took her down by the beach that…she loves the beach that it might calm her down.
D. I took her up there and probably for another 15, 20 minutes she was still screaming these things. And just kept going so I took her up to a school because I always felt safe at school, it was like (cough) the one place I felt safe
D. I took her up there and I just kept talking to her and trying to get her to come back out of whatever she was living or whatever was happening
D. And so I…I kept talking to her and talking to her and she finally just came out of it like nothing had happened
A. Did you ever talk to her about what she was thinking about, what she was reliving
D. No, but she…the things that she was saying and because I had already…my mom had already told me that she had been at the White's Christmas party I thought that she had witnessed something
A. Ok, so…so you think that XXXX had witnessed something at the White's house
D. Yea, cause it…cause she kept saying they you know they killed her they killed her they killed the little girl
A. Ok, did XXXX ever talk about JonBenet by name
A. Ok, umm had you ever heard of the Ramsey's or had…XXXX talking about… talked about being over at the Ramsey's house at all
A. Ok, only at the White's house
D. And XXXX didn't actually tell me she was at the White's house, my mom told me that
A. Right…right
B. And…and just…just to make it clear…your mom said that they were at a Christmas party there, she didn't specifically say they were there on Christmas day
A. Ok, now do you know Priscilla White at all
D. I've met her a couple of times
A. Ok, do you know her family at all
D. I know that there from umm Southern California
A. Ok, have you had any contact with Priscilla her family at all
D. Not much
A. Ok, umm it sounds like all the…the sexual assaults everything are focused around Fleet White Jr and Sr
A. Umm has Priscilla been involved in any type of activities like that at all that you..that you know
D. None that I ever saw no
A. Ok, umm and it looks like to me that when Fleet White Jr the last time he assaulted you Priscilla was not in the picture is that right
D. (inaudible) (A&D talking)
A. They weren't married or anything like that
D. I don't really know that
D. So I'm not gonna say that, I really don't know
A. Ok, umm
C. Are you ok
A. And let me ask, I don't know if we covered this or not umm have you ever met John and Pasty Ramsey at all, do you know who they are
C. Can…can I…can I interject something here
C. There's some background to this
C. Umm in my efforts to evaluate Mrs. Krebs creditability umm I ask her..a similar…similar question and she's hesitating now because umm she doesn't have the same type of documentary evidence to support this
C. But she will readily relate to you her understanding and belief of her contact repeatedly contact with John Ramsey over the years
C. That by way would preference to explain (inaudible) of why she (A&C talking)
A. Ok, could we start with Pasty Ramsey. Have you ever met Patsy Ramsey
D. Umm, I think that I have
A. Ok, where do you think you met Pasty Ramsey
D. In Sacramento California
A. Ok, when did that occurred
B. There's somebody in the lobby for something…has something for you
C. Excuse me, (inaudible)
D. It would have been in the late 70's
A. Ok, down in..in
D. Sacramento
A. Sacramento
A. Ok, so late 70's was Pasty Ramsey, with John Ramsey at that time
D. I don't know, that's not…that wasn't the connection
A. Ok, that wasn't the connection
D. No, they it wasn't that they were together
A. Ok, tell me meeting Pasty Ramsey in the 70's in Sacramento
D. Umm……it was at….I saw her at a function that I was attending for uh…convention of Rainbow girls
A. Ok, so you it was kind of a casual con…
A. Casual contact umm was she a speaker or anything
D. No not that I remember
A. Ok, so she was just at
D. Because I was very umm high up in the Rainbow girls and umm and in "Jobes Daughters"and so we'd go to these different umm functions
A. Ok, and she just…she was just there, ok but she wasn't like a Keynote speaker or anything like that.
A. She was another participant
A. Ok, other then that time have you ever met Patsy Ramsey
D. Not that…I have to really think about that one
A. Ok…ok, umm when was the first time you met John Ramsey
D. When I was a very small girl
A. Ok, and where was that at
D. It would have been either at the White's house in Huntington Beach
A. Ok, and which..which White's are we talking about
D. Umm
A. Sr or Jr
D. Or perhaps even my grandparents house or there's other location but I don't want to get into all those. I think right now I want to stick with
A. Ok, tell me about your contacts with John Ramsey
C. Probably the ice breaker, some of the documents that I gave you umm the type ones were prepared in the course of umm her therapeutical relationship with Mary Bienkowski
C. And she writes about is this ok
C. (inaudible) this is tough for you
A. I think if it gets jump started that's fine
C. Ok, she names uncle Johnny in one of the pages in there, she writes about encounters with uncle Johnny. Do you want them to read that
C. Or do you want to read it to them
D. I also want to show them that letter
C. Yes, and there's a letter here also. I can help you find it, thank you for your patience….how are we doing for time, are we
A. We're fine
C. You guys work all the time
A. Pretty much
C. Unfortunate….(shuffling papers)….God Dam….(low voice)
B. Some of this stuff that you….
C. The stack that Alex has may have all the missing pages
B. Yea, actually this is…this is what I need
C. Ok, sorry about that
B. So (door slammed)
C. Is there a restroom in here, or do I need to go out to the lobby
A. (inaudible)actuality is probably the closest, you want to take a restroom break
C. Do you have to take restroom, is that alright
A. Yea, that's fine we can stop this
C. (inaudible) (C&D talking in a low voice)
B. While we're waiting for Tom, let me run some names by your real quick
C. (Cough) excuse me
A. (inaudible) ok (inaudible)
A. Ok…ok why don't you get started show me what you got, this one here
A. Ok, your uncle John is referred to
D. John Ramsey
A. Ok, and who's this letter from
D. From me
A. And this is the one that was done during therapy right
A. With Mary
A. And when approximately did this letter get written
D. I'm not sure
A. Ball park
C. 10…10 years, you've been in therapy for 10 years so the later time or the first
D. The later half
C. The later half….and..and for Detective Trujillo (inaudible) you might want to explain the this letter
D. Mmm
A. Ok……..
C. Do…do you think you should look at this letter to. I mean this..this actually (phone ringing) (inaudible) this letter provides great deal of context in terms of Mrs. Krebs experiential point of reference I guess I can barely describe from that (inaudible)
A. Ok, so while he's reading that lets umm this is the first ones..page one to your uncle John umm kind of put this in context so we've have some idea where..where all this is coming from
A. If you wouldn't mind
C. This..this document puts it into context in terms of her family history and all these documents were prepared in connection with efforts she was making to memorialize the ethic story that is her life of abuse
C. For her parents
C. And…and the reasons there's not additional pages here
C. Umm I collected these pages using Mrs. Bienkowski xerox machine which literally ran out of toner while she was xeroxing these pages
C. While I was there in XXXX
A. So umm
C. This..this letter dated 1974 who was that from
C. And it refers also to
D. To my grandma and grandpa who were in Oregon at the time and umm she talks in here about umm I talk to Johnny every Saturday. He calls me at Sue's house around 11:00
A. Ok, that's gonna be John Ramsey (phone ringing)
D. As I know yes
D. Umm he sounds so lonesome and I miss him so much, but hopefully it won't be to much longer. He just might be here on Thanksgiving, he has to buy a car and he wants to get a 1970 and I guess they run about $1600. I don't know if that's all really about a car or..or if about some other money that maybe that he gave my mom
D. Umm it's been 5 months since I last saw him and then speaking of Thanksgiving I would like have you come to my house. I think the family should be together on Thanksgiving, it would be such fun
D. And the kids would love to see you and hopefully Johnny would be here. I hope it's possible
A. Ok and this..this is from whom
A. And it's to her mom and to Al
A. And Al is which grandfather
D. Her step dad
A. Ok, your mom's step dad
C. That's Spragues…
A. Albert
C. Who you're talking about
A. Ok, so in 1974 umm mom writes letter talks about Johnny coming over for Thanksgiving, that sort of thing. And again this is the person that you know as John Ramsey
A. Ok, and lets…again instead of…kind of a to conserve…a conserve a little time we have all of these and we can read them over umm but I think it's more important is..tell me in here this first page umm dear John…dear uncle John letter umm can I give you….tell me what these paragraphs mean if you could as opposed to you know you know could kind of go back and forth umm it's easier if you just tell me what..what you're talking about
D. Ok, umm this was a letter that I was not going to sent
D. First I'd like to say that, it was a letter that I was writing umm out of frustration
D. And out of…of a bunch of anger that I have
A. And this a letter that's written
D. Towards John Ramsey
A. As part of therapy
D. And in this letter I'm expressing my feelings about how he treated me
D. What he did with the money or whatever that was made from umm prostituting me in pornographic films and pictures
D. And it's also saying what little that I know about the involvement that he had with my family and in a business sense
A Ok, so let's take the last part first..so you knew John Ramsey and your mother and your father were in some sort of a business agreement
D No..no I am saying that some of the money that was made on some of the film that they did and prostituting of me and probably countless other people were funneled through business or things that John Ramsey would set up for them
A Ok, so again to make sure I'm straight…so your parents are the ones that were doing this sort of stuff, and they were funneling money through John Ramsey. Does that make sense
D No, I'm saying John Ramsey had as much of a part in it as anybody else in my family. But he was the person who was ditching the money.
C. Also can I add
C. Just for clarity, umm when you refer to my family are you including reference to the Whites as being part of the family (inaudible) (talking)
D. What….what I'm saying I'm saying this…this whole group of people
A. Ok (loud cough)
D. Have been (coughing) involved in these types of things for many…many years
A. Ok, lets talk about the types of things John Ramsey was involved in, cause obviously that's the part that interest me the most ok. Tell me what John Ramsey was involved in as far as you
D. As far as me
A. As far as you
D. He was involved in umm abusing me
A. Ok, abusing you in what ways
D. Having umm sexual intercourse with me
D. Having umm doing umm you know sodomy, oral copulation putting me in positions where I was in bondage
D. Where I would be umm sometimes chained sometimes umm tied sometimes umm like tortured with little tiny sticks that they would put on fire…and insert…insert inside of me
D. Just little tiny sticks umm they used different Instruments including John Ramsey
A. Ok, and again and..and
D. Broom sticks, little broom stick handles off little whisk broom
A. Ok, and again lets focus on just John Ramsey for right now ok
D. Well I'm saying he did all of those things
A. Ok, when was the last time you had any…any contact…any contact with John Ramsey
D. That I remember was when we were living in Los Osos
A. Ok, and when was that
D. It would have been when I was in the 7th grade, and I had missed so many days of school
A. Ok, that was the last day you had contact with John Ramsey
A. Ok, when was the very first time that you remember having contact with John Ramsey
D. It would have been at about the same age as umm with Mackey and Fleet, and Fleet Jr and so it would have been around the age of 1 ½, 4 years old
A. Ok, so between 3 ½ up to 7th grade, umm again lets kind of put together a time line based on that…those…those years. Lets start on the 7th grade time line and we'll go way back ok and again lets…lets narrow our focus to just John Ramsey right now ok umm last encounter with John Ramsey that…that seems to kind of be the easiest is figuring out the last time that you had an encounter with him. Umm lets talk about that
D. The last time that I remember
A. The last time that you remember
D. Yea, umm (coughing) I know that we were living in an apartment building in Los Osos
A. Ok, with whom
D. I was living there with my mom
D. And my sister and brother
D. And my mom and I shared a bedroom and my sister and brother shared a room
D. So during this time they were lots of men who would come over and they would have sexual intercourse with my mom and sometimes they would or would not with me in the same bed
D. And what I remember about John Ramsey being there was that he was there several times when I was in the 7th grade and that he would tie me to the bed or tie me in a closet on a thing that we had in our closet uh like where you hang up clothes
A. Ok, like a clothes just clothes rack
D. Yea, like a…a pole in the closet
D. And he would umm have sexual intercourse with me or sodomize me or oral copulation and lots of time there was actual film speed taken movie cameras of this and also pictures
A. So did they…did the video's show both of you, did it show you and John Ramsey
A. In full…full body type pictures
A. Ok, so
D. And lots of times they would use, especially if they had you'd tied it up they would use two different camera's. They would put a camera towards your head and…and a camera towards your genitalia
A. Ok, now could you also see John Ramsey's head in these photo's or these video's
A. Ok, have you ever seen these video's playing
D. They weren't video's and
D. They were umm put on umm real..real tapes
A. Ok, little real tapes
A. Ok, have you…have you seen these video's
D. Yes I have
A. Ok, do you know where those video's are at currently
D. No, but I can tell you that when I lived in Trona with my mom and step father, that they had a movie screen out in the…a big like open patio and they would take umm me and my sister and my brother whoever else happened to be there and some men and teenage boys and they would all go out unto this patio they would pull down this screen and they would show these movies
A. Ok, and these…these movies of John Ramsey and you
D. And different and various other people
A. Ok, and again lets…we're gonna focus just on John Ramsey for right now
A. Umm again focusing on the very last encounter that you can remember with John Ramsey and actually umm lets go…lets go to that step by step…that occurred at your mother's apartment
A. Ok, lets go step by step what occurred
D. I can give you the address
D. If that would help you, it was at the time it was called umm XXXX or XXXX and it's now on XXXX in Los Osos
A. Ok, so lets…lets talk about that last encounter with John Ramsey, how did it start umm you talked a little bit about who was there but tell me what occurred specifically just on the last one
D. It's really hard for me to say which one is the last one
D. I mean do you understand that I…oh excuse me…umm
C. Will explained why it's hard for you to (inaudible) (C&D taking)
D. Well cause there were so many different people involved
D. In these…and also right now and fearing a lot of fear for my life
D. And for the lives of couple of other people, so I think that I'm loosing
D. But
A. Loosing focus a little bit
A. And again the reason…the reason I'm going to the last..the last time is..is kind of how you focused in on Fleet White Sr
D. I know…I…know
A. Is the last time
D. Well I could also say about John Ramsey being there was that at other times there would be other men there
D. And at those other times like especially if they were going to be doing a movie they would use umm methods of bondage. And if it was not with ropes it could be like…chains or handcuffs or
D. Umm pantyhose or whatever they just felt like using at the time and they would bring Mackey in on those occasions to umm strangle me
A. Ok, how do you mean strangle you
D. I mean he would use different things at different times but a lot of times he would go for my neck and he would push
D. What I now know to be like this an artery and he would push and push and push until I could hardly breath
D. Or he would take umm some kind of like umm a little string or a small rope or just anything to put around me and just like almost choke me to death
A. Ok, did you ever become unconscious
D. I would pass out sometimes
D. And he would…and then Mackey would…especially at first when he first started doing that to me as a young child when I would pass out he would just get extremely…extremely angry
A. Because you passed out
A. Ok, again we're talking about Mackey, lets…lets bring the focus back to John Ramsey
D. But I think it was important to tell you because of that…that Mackey could have been there on the last time, it could have been one of the times that they had made this movie one of the movies of me being strangled
A. Ok so
D. And there was a reason that they did that and that was because and I…umm till this day I don't understand why or what the mechanics or whatever but if they wanted me to be excited in the sexual way that's what they would do
D. If they weren't if…if….if…because a lot of times when they were doing things to me my body would just shut down and it wouldn't get the effect that they would want
A. Ok, so by…like choking you out like you talked about by causing you do go unconscious, they believed that excited you in some sort of sexual way
A. Is that what you're saying
D. Yes, I…that's what I'm saying
A. Which would facilitate the assault on you
A. Ok, and have you seen any photographs have you seen the photographs ever in the newspaper, tabloids and all that of how JonBenet was tied up
D. Umm have I seen any, I don't think any real umm close up pictures or anything no
A. Ok, cause on those on the very beginning of this whole case (coughing) there were the tabloids were out right there…the tabloids had photographs that they had located of the ligatures umm that JonBenet was tied up with, did you ever see any of those photographs
D. I really don't know, I mean I could be in a market and be shopping and see something on the front cover so I'm not gonna say I never saw anything like that
C. Do you remember ever seeing anything like that (inaudible) do you have any specific memory of having seen
A. Ok, umm did you ever read again tabloids and the main strain…news…mainstream news media has put a log of information out on this case, good, bad, false whatever umm there's a lot of information out here. Have you ever read…read any specific reports or accounts of this case, of our case the homicide case
D. Well I can tell you that my grandma had umm a couple of Enquires
D. At the house and one in particle that I know she had was a picture that had…a Fleet White in it and she asked somebody not me to buy it for her
A. Ok, umm other than the Enquires that you're talking about the two that your grandmother had have you…have you read anything else about the Ramsey Homicide case
D. Umm when I saw umm when on Lee on television just recently I went to my computer to check to see what kind of a person that Lee was if it was a if he was a person that I could trust
D. And so
A. How did you find Lee on your computer
D. I went to the Fox News
D. Cause he had been on there that day
A. Is that…is it through some sort of a Ramsey connection or just Fox News had his picture so you clicked on it
D. Umm no it was umm about another case that he had worked on
D. About the Ramsey's
C. When Miles deposition first became public Fox did all day long they were running stories and that was about two weeks ago, yesterday
C. And that's what you're referring to
C. And..and when they run a story they have a picture on there web site
C. Is that what you accessed, ok
A. So you're talking about you accessed of the Fox News web site
A. And there was some sort of icon you clicked to find Lee Hill, is that
C. Did they have a link to the Daily Camera
C. That…she has explained that to me
B. I have a question for you
B. Umm clear this up for me, the link that you made to John Ramsey is through the letter from your mother to umm your grandmother reference a John..Johnny and umm is there any other
D. Well my own memories
B. You memories…okay and that's my next question is you seen pictures of John Ramsey
B. And did you recognize him as a person that you knew as the person that you described all this stuff happening at the apartment
A. To go a little bit further, what pic…and that's what I guess I'm trying to get at with the Ramsey stuff, what pictures of John Ramsey have you seen recently.
A. He's basically all over the news through the whole case…umm I mean did you see him…did you see CNN interview
D. Mmm I've seen bits and pieces of it I haven't watched the whole thing
A. Ok, did you watch the CNN interview of the very beginning of the case
D. Umm I don't know if I did that or not, if I saw that or not
C. Can I ask quick question
C. Did you ever know this man's name was John Ramsey before the murder had occurred. Did you know his full name
D. No, I knew him as uncle Johnny
A. Ok, so again when you saw…you don't know whether you saw the original CNN interview with John and Pasty Ramsey
A. Ok, have you seen other taped excer…excerpts from that video
D. I really don't know…I really don't know how to answer that because there's been so much and in distant passing I don't know how much I've seen or not seen
D. I mean my grandma has the television on almost all the time
D. And my grandma focuses on news programs
D. And if there's anything umm about JonBenet my grandma watches it
A. Ok, I guess basicly what I'm getting at in I think what Chuck was getting at is at what point and time in the last 3 years did you see a picture of John Ramsey and realize that's uncle Johnny. At what point and time did that occur
D. It must…I don't know the first time that I saw him on television. I can't really say that
D. But I'm sure that whenever I saw him I knew that's who it was
A. Ok, and again that's what I'm looking for when..when's about the first time you remember equating John Ramsey to uncle Johnny over the last 3 years
D. I'm sure it was soon after they were on television
D. I just don't know when
A. Like within the first couple of days that sort of thing
D. I mean
C. Can I ask another question
C. Did you know that uncle Johnny was married and living in Boulder and had a six year old daughter before this hit the press. Did you know any of those family details about uncle Johnny
D. Well another picture that was umm sent to my grandma was a picture of JonBenet and
A. Ok and that's
D. So
A. Is that in the paperwork you have now
C. No
A. Again that's at your grandma's house
D. I don't know where that picture is, it was at my house
A. Ok, so when did your grandmother receive the picture of JonBenet and Daphne
D. Probably soon after it was taken
A. Before the homicide then
A. Do you remember umm any details of that pictures, where they were standing umm surroundings of the picture
D. Umm but it was like kind of a white background that I think that they had some kind of animals with them
A. Was it a professional portrait type picture or just a snap shot on a 35mm or something
D. No a professional picture
A. Ok, so professional picture out there of JonBenet and Daphne taken at some kind of portrait studio
A. Light background any other details of the pictures. You talked animals being around
D. I thought there's was rabbits or something in there
A. Real rabbits or stuffed animals
D. Real, I don't know
C. Do you remember what they were wearing
D. Hats or something
D. I mean I don't really
A. Dresses, pants
D. I think dresses
A. Ok, and how big was this picture
D. Umm 5X7
A. Ok, so it was fairly good size picture
A. Ok and actually I know the Ramsey's photo…photographer so maybe we can get that ok
B. Did you ever ask your mom about uncle Johnny or did you ever talk to her about this whole
D. I mean it wasn't unusual for them to use a first name for somebody
D. That was not unusual at all and they were just known as uncle so and so
B. Ok, did…did you have ask your sister or brother about uncle Johnny
B. Ok, would they know who he is if we talked to them
D. I don't know, you've have to ask them
B. Alright, were they involved in any of the sexual assaults at the apartment that you talked about where uncle Johnny was involved, were they…did they participate in any of that (inaudible) (coughing)
D. Yea, I don't remember them being there at the time and I was kept home a lot from school and they were sent to school
B. Ok, ok so you're saying you may have been isolated from them and they may not know what was going on
B. As far as you know
A. But again your sister was also a..a victim of is it Mackey
A. And does she remember any of that occurring
D. I'm certain my sister remembers but I also know that my sister has been very reluctant to talk
A. Ok, and why is that
D. I don't know you'd have to ask her but, I mean she's
B. And I think the question is..is..is umm have you talk to her about this stuff
B. You…or have you talked to your brother about any of this
D. About
C. And..and why..why have you been reluctant to talk (inaudible)
B. I mean are they telling you no I..we don't want to talk about this forget about it, I mean what's the response if you have talked to them before about this, or if you have…
D. My brother…umm that's my brother's response always is
B. Ok, and your sister's response is what
D. Is about the same
A. Is it that they don't want to get involved they don't want to remember
D. I think that it's that for my sister, my sister obviously still involved by having her daughter going to places
D. And having her..even at my mom's house knowing what happens at my mom's house
D. Both of her children and leaving them in my mom's care and also umm I think for my sister that she has a lot of fear
A. How
D. Because all along when these thing happened there's always some kind of a threat attached to whatever they just done to you. And if you get those all of your life you don't want to talk to people
A. Ok, where are your sister's children right now
D. In Germany
A. With her
A. Ok, do you think that (coughing)do you think that they're in any danger right now
D. I don't..I have know idea what's going on in Germany but I know that if they were brought back here that they would be in danger
B. I may have…I may have misheard you but I think that you mentioned something earlier about there father
B. Being involved in this also
B. Ok, and is he still with XXXX
D. Yea, but for
B. They're still together
D. right, for awhile when umm my sister moved to Germany like I said my mom kept her kids and…and uh…XXXXXX was also there in XXXXXXX that's my sister's husband
D. And then he left there and I…I think this is right that he went to work in Las Vegas,
and he left the kids with my mom in Trona and then my mom actually flew over with the kids to Germany
A. And took…and kind of hand delivery of them to your sisters
A. Now is your sister's husband in Germany or in Las Vegas then
D. Las Vegas, he just recently went to Germany within like the last umm 8 months or so
A. Ok, so now with your sister's husband with the children's father being with them in Germany do you think there's any danger against the kids now, just being in Germany with their mom and dad
D. Umm I really…I don't know
B. Nancy is there a way to get XXXX phone number in Germany, do you have…have that or is there a way you can get that
D. Well I'll…it was…I had it at my house
D. But I didn't bring it with me
A. Is she attached to XXXX out there
A. And where in Germany is she at
D. Where in Germany?
A. Yea (door shut)
D. Umm XXXX
A. (ONE LINE REDACTED)
A. Ok she's a civilian
D. (ONE LINE REDACTED)
C. Oh really
A. Ok, let me make sure that I have her husband's name, why don't you give me her husband's name again
A. OK, now (REDACTED) in the military
C. Who does he work for
D. He had this civilian job (REDACTED)
A. Ok so he's not doing the same job he was doing here in Arvada
D. When he was here in Colorado and when he went to Las Vegas he was a heavy equipment operator and that's the type of work he was staying in
A. Ok, and I thought earlier you talked about that he had something to do with tanks and computer systems
D. My brother
A. Ok, that's your brother that did that
A. Got it, so XXXX a civilian XXXX in Germany
A. Do you have any idea what he's doing XXXX other than civilian stuff
D. They don't live XXXX
A. Ok, so is he just working in Germany
A. Or is he working XXXX
D. He works XXXX but my sis…he and my sister have a private residence
A. Ok, and it's XXXX
A. Ok, what….what is he now doing XXXX
D. Uh…last that I heard he was driving a fork life
D. For XXXX or something like that
A. Ok, so you think some place at your house that your mom your grandmother's house you have a phone number for your sister
A. Ok, what's her date of birth
D. Umm 9-20-64
A. Ok, and she's a civilian alright is there anything else about John Ramsey umm actually have you talked to anybody else other than your therapist about who John Ramsey is. How does he fit into this whole picture, who else have you talked to about that other than Lee
D. Umm well I spoke to XXXX
A. Ok, about specifically that John Ramsey was uncle Johnny
D. Umm no I…I didn't…I don't think that it was more that I told her that there was a family connection
A. Between you and the Ramsey's
A. Ok who have you told about John Ramsey being uncle Johnny
D. The only person that I've said that to would be Lee umm Mrs. B
D. And umm Mary Bienkowski
A. And your therapist
C. May I add that in your frame of reference this is before coming to Colorado you know the…the leap from leaving California to coming here…
(end of side B tape 2)
(Tape #3)
A: After you realized that that John Ramsey was Johnny who was the name of the first person who told that to?
D: Well I think that would have been XXXX
A: Okay. And do you remember when approximately that occurred?
D: No.
A: Okay.
D: I have no idea.
A: You told XXXX is there anybody else that you related, um, related that to?
D: Not that I can remember.
A: Okay. Let me just ask is there anything else, now we'll get another tape, is there anything else we're missing here? Um, you know, we've kind of jumped around quite a bit but you had some specific information that you wanted to give us. Again my final efforts is more towards the Ramsey investigation. But if there is anything else that we are missing, um (inaudible) Chuck?
B: Let me get another tape.
A: Um, is there something else we should ask you? Is there something else specific to the Ramsey investigation that we haven't covered?
C: This page, as it relates to Mackey's role. The fact that he passed away in November and also if you ask her about the significance of Christmas and the way things, the way that holiday was (inaudible) celebrated.
C: Um, I think you'll find her information very um, very related and interesting.
A: Okay, let me back up, Mackey died in November of what year.
C: '96.
A: 96.
A: Okay, that's what I thought. (Inaudible, mumbles) Okay, um, we'll start the tape back up here, you talked about a three page letter, is that right?
C: Well, it's a (inaudible, too many speak at once).
A: Before page four. The first page starts (inaudible) that sort of thing then we go to page two…
C: Yes.
A: …is that correct? That kind of is frame of reference to who wrote this letter.
D: I did.
A: And again, during therapy?
D: Right.
A: With Mary.
A: Um who is the letter written to?
D: It's not really written to anybody.
A: It's just kind of notes?
D: It's not really notes, it's just stuff that I felt I needed to get out of me.
A: Okay, yeah, that's finE: Um let's go to page two in where you talk a little bit about
how Mackey fits into this.
D: Uh huh.
A: Um, where you talk about Mackey, you know, who Mackey is um, tell me how this all fits together. I guess, I want you to sum up a little bit about where you talked about how Christmas time fits in, Mackey died in November of '96, how Christmas time fits in, how the letter fits in. Why don't you, I'll let you tell me um, how this…
D: Well, how I think…
A: How you think it all fits together.
D: In that my family (inaudible) um, would count on, and that would be Mackey's job often times in, in those pornographic films and pornographic pictures being taken, that he would be the person to strangle the…somebody to the point where they wanted them.
A: Okay. So Mackey would be the person that would basically um, temporarily choke somebody out um, take them to the point of unconsciousness. Um, and you talked about earlier that he would use a ligature to do that? Or he would use his hands?
D: He would use all kinds of things. It was like he would use his hands, he would use little pieces of string, which I have one…
D: …that I've had, um, and (inaudible) possessions and he would use ropes, um pieces of latex, um scarfs.
A: If he used a rope or a scarf, how would he do it? Just wrap it around and pull the ends? Or would he, how would he choke you to the point of unconsciousness with the rope?
D: Well it wasn't his purpose to choke me or anybody else to unconsciousness, that's not what they wanted to happen…
A: Right, right.
D: …but to a point where you're uh, I can remember that my lips would start tingling and my eyes would feel like they were going to pop out of my head…
D: …and that was all part of the look they wanted to get.
A: Okay. How would he use that rope to get that look? What did he do with the rope?
D: He would put it around my neck…
D: …and usually on one side or the other, apply more pressure on one side or the other with the rope by pulling.
A: So let me see if I understand this. He just wrapped the rope around your neck and again kind of put the two ends on one side of your neck or the other and just pull it, kind of looking at you, just kind of pull the rope um 'till your eyes kind of bulged out a little bit like you talked about? Okay. Now again, how does Mackey fit into the whole Christmas thing and the death of JonBenet?
D: Well that's like all.
A: Okay, that's…
D: …all conjecture on my part.
A: Okay, tell me how you think this whole things fits together then.
D: I think that, that he wasn't he obviously wasn't there and they used somebody in his place that wasn't as experienced.
A: Okay
D: In doing that and that they went too far.
A: Okay. So let me take this a little step further, do you think some sort of uh, snuff film, well it's not a film, a filming type thing?
D: Yeah. And I don't, I don't think that they meant to kill her and I'll tell you why. I think that because she was making money for them. She was, she was doing something for them and they wouldn't have wanted to kill her.
C: Will you tell them about your Christmas, tell them about your Christmas.
A: Actually Lee hold on for just a second. Let me make sure I understand what um, so you believe Mackey died in November, he's out of the picture. Obviously he's not the one to be able to control the victim, as it were, to get the effect that they wanted to get out of the victim, so somebody else took over Mackey's job as it were. Is that what you are saying?
D: Yes.
A: Okay. And doing, doing this to the victim's eye, uh, have her eyes bulge out, JonBenet's eyes bulge out, that sort of thing um, this person may have accidentally killed her. Is that what I'm hearing?
D: Yeah.
D: And I don't know that her eyes bulged out. I don't know any…thing.
A: Right, right. No and I understand that. I'm just trying to relate her to, to your experience.
D: My own experience.
A: Okay. Um would they have, during this time, when they got to the point od actually strangling her, um, would they have had intercourse with her? I mean, is that kind of the same pattern that followed with you?
A: I mean, that's, cause it kinda sounds like to me um, when you got to the point of the
Ligatures being placed around your neck, that's pretty far along in this whole…
D: Right with my…
A: …whole pattern of abuse. That wasn't the first thing that occurred.
A: And again, relating back to your pattern of abuse, the first time you were sexually assaulted they didn't put a ligature around your neck, correct? If you can remember.
D: I don't really remember that.
D: That much, all I can really remember about anything being a first time, is like I say, is sitting on the toilet and just screaming and there being blood in the toilet and remembering that, you know back, somebody else had to be there.
D: I mean, I…
A: (inaudible) And again I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but kind of along this whole pattern of abuse that occurred, did the, did the neck ligatures uh, did that occur, for what you could remember, towards the end of your abuse?
D: It was, yeah.
D: In, uh, especially if they were filming or taking pictures.
A: Right, I mean it's not that they didn't film you from the very beginning, they didn't take pictures from the very beginning that you could remember?
D: Oh no, The whole thing was filmed.
A: From the very, very first sexual um, contact that you had or…a specific event.
D: Well, lots of times from a…a…a specific event would be filmed.
A: Right, the entire event was filmed.
A: Well, I guess what I'm getting at is, this kind of pattern of abuse.
A: It started out kind of minor things, whether it be the fondling, the touching, that sort of thing up to a point where somebody had sexual intercourse with you.
D: No, in one particular event. But it would start out…
A: Actually I'm talking about the entire scheme. Um, the very first time anybody, whether it was Mackey, whether it was your grandfather, whoever, um, started this assault on you, numerous assaults. It kind of sounds like it followed a pattern. It started out fairly minor as it were, the very first time that you were assaulted by your grandfather, you were tied up. Do you see what I'm saying?
D: I think that would be really hard for me to remember.
A: And, and it may be.
D: All I remember is like…
C: There…there…was not a bolero effect from what she is telling me but a series of assaults and in each separate incidents it would start out with the equivalent of foreplay and it would escalate to different conclusions, either you know sodomy or…
C: …oralcop…or (inaudible) manipulating what looks like a female orgasm in a child
by asphyxiation.
A: So that happened in the very, very beginning. Is that what I'm…
C: She doesn't remember precisely from our (soft spoken) conversations but…
C: …her earliest memories include those features.
A: Do the earliest memories include the strangulation type stuff?
A: Okay. And that's what I am trying to understand. So to relate this back to JonBenet, um, that um, the strangulation would have occurred during intercourse, is that what I'm hearing? And again…
D: In my own…
A: …based on your experience.
D: …I would say yes.
A: Okay, either oral, anal, or vaginal intercourse?
A: Okay, and they would have filmed this encounter, is that what you are saying?
A: Okay, and they being both at least, John Ramsey, because of your past history with Uncle Johnny, who you say is John Ramsey, is that correct?
A: And Fleet White, either Junior or Senior?
D: One or both
A: Okay, and again, that's so, the players that we should be looking at we should be focused on Fleet White Senior, Fleet White Junior and John Ramsey?
A: Are there any other people, other than those three, um specific to the Ramsey homicide that we should focus on that you know of?
D: As being there?
A: As being there.
D: Well my mom.
D: By that conversation that I had with her on the telephone.
A: Okay, because she was, she took XXX to the White's house. Let me ask you this, where, I mean, we've collected evidence from the Ramsey home, but is there another house we should have collected evidence at? Or where you believe this homicide occurred? Bases on what your mom said from that phone call.
D: Well, I can't, she didn't, the only thing that would lead me to think that is was, it had been at Fleet White's house is the fact that she said she had been there.
D: For a Christmas party.
D: And to me this is very significant because a lot of times things would happen on Christmas and they would involve a Santa Claus and I have numerous, numerous pictures of me with Santa taken even in the same year, I mean, like it's Christmas 1964, and I might have three different pictures of me with two different settings of Santa Claus. I mean, they would often start out (inaudible) by using a Santa Claus
a person dressed as Santa Claus, to fondle somebody.
A: Okay. So, in your history, Christmas was a significant time?
D: Right. And there was also another reason for things to happen on holidays like that is that then you would be given time to heal to go back to school..
A: Okay, so you are talking about that Christmas for you was a time when sexual assaults occurred for a couple of reasons. One so that you could heal up before you went back to school after the first of the year? Okay. Any other significance towards the Christmas holidays? I mean you talked about that and Santa Claus, any other significance?
D: Um, I just think that that, is just that's a good time to plan a [arty of some kind of event, have a lot of people over at your house and then have some of the people leave and yet the people stayed behind and it wouldn't be conspicuous.
A: Again, in this case, the White's could have had your mom over to the house with XXX. Do you think that XXX is a victim of this sexual assault also?
D: Yes I do.
A: Okay, so you think she was a victim of the sexual assault the night that your mom took her over to the White's house?
A: Okay, and I base this because she is a living person and that is something we have to deal with also.
A: So, do you believe that XXX was a victim of a sexual assault? Is that right?
D: Uh huh, and I have some other things that happened this summer when XXX was staying with me.
A: Okay, what other things are those, other than, you talked about one um, where XXX and your brother and your neighbor all went down for pizza and all that, is there
another event?
D: Well, that was in '98, in '99 um, my mom brought um, XXX, I actually went and picked them up in San Francisco from the airport.
D: And, brought them to my house, my mom came to my house and picked them up at my house and my mom stayed there that time during that time and I think my mom was there probably about a week or so.
D: And then she took XXX and XXX to Torona and they stayed there approximately two to three weeks, came back to my house and it was when they came back to my house that um things happened to XXX.
A: Okay, what things happened to XXX.
D: Um XXXX grandmother, XXXX had rented a room in a motel room all day in California called the XXX.
A: Okay, XXXXX?
C: XXXX.
D: XXXXX.
A: Okay, XXXXXX?
D: Uh huh, XXXXXX and she, first had XXXXX come over and stay with her a couple of days and then XXXXx came back, he seemed fine and the my mom took XXXXX and disappeared for a day and a half with XXXXX and told me that she was taking XXXXx over to where XXXXx was at in XXXXx, um I mean not where XXXX was, where XXXX was at in XXXXX.
D: And then, um, when XXXXX came back, my mom brought her back to my house in
handcuffs.
D: And I have the handcuffs. I don't have them here with me.
C: There are pictures on the video.
D: And um they brought her back and XXXX laid down on the floor and started screaming and she was telling me they had stuck something in her ear.
D: And that her ear was really hurting and, and she just kept laying on the floor and crying and I got into a very big argument with my mom and almost had a fist fight because I told her that I was taking XXX to the hospital and she didn't want to let me out of the house with XXXX.
A: Okay, did you take XXX to the hospital?
D: Yes I did.
A: Okay, and what did they find at the hospital?
D: They just examined her ears.
D: They found that she had some irritation to her ear.
C: Okay, can…can I interject?
A: Uh huh.
C: I video taped the sheets that describes severe ear infection that were delivered to her following the hospital visit. It lists XXX name, the date and the hospital on one form.
A: Okay, now do you have those sheets that you are talking about the emergency room she or whatever?
C: (inaudible).
D: (inaudible).
C: No these are the standard form what to do with a severe ear infection, but they do include the girl's name and the date of admission and treating physician. They are in the custody of her therapist who also interviewed XXX associated with injuries other injuries she saw.
B: Did you ask your mom why she had handcuffs on XXXX?
D: I didn't have to ask why she had handcuffs on XXX.
A: Why were the handcuffs on?
D: Because that's the way they brought her back from the motel and they wanted her to know that she was still unable to leave.
D: And that happened several times to me, I, I mean I think they were very well documented in my therapy and stuff about me being taken places in handcuffs and…
C: Can I help a little bit please tell them other things that XXX complained of. Tell them about the photographs she had in her backpack.
D: Okay. This was, I believe it was the night before my, that XXX and XXX were supposed to leave to go to Germany.
D: And I was helping them pack um, their clothes. They had a big suitcase and they each had a back pack and I was going to put something into XXX back pack and in um,
a manilla envelope in like about the same size that one Fleet White sent those pictures in, inside there were some photographs and photographs were of mummified bodies, um, a scorpion and um an ant hill with ants.
C:. (cough).
A: And the significance of those three photos?
D: (sighs).
A: Did XXX tell you the significance of those?
D: Well, she had already told, I, under the pretense that I was taking XXX for breakfast, out to breakfast…
D: Um, I took XXX to see Mary Bienkowski.
D: Because I wanted her to be able to speak to XXX and hear for herself what XXX had to say and Mary, I did not schedule an appointment with her or anything, I just went by there. She happened to be out of her office and she, I told her that I had XXX out in the car and that I would like to bring her in. She said okay, and I brought her in.
D: And Mary, in just very, very general terms started talking to XXX abnout what was, what it was like in Germany and um, she asked XXX what she had been doing and XXX told her that she had been to Torona her grandma's house and that she had been stung by ants and that um, and she had on her knee a um, visible, what I had known doe myself as a cigarette burn on her knee and she um, had a little mark up here on her forehead and she told um, Mary that she had been stung by a scorpion.
A: OK, which is the significance of the three pictures.
D: But I…
C: (B and C speak at once) more than three, I have them on video.
A: Okay Did Mary talk to her about the events leading up to when she was handcuffed and brought back to the house?
D: No no.
A: Did she talk to her about that at all?
D: And Mary um, didn't want to and couldn't really actually because she had another client coming, talk to XXX any further.
D: But XXX on her own, started just, I mean Mary was asking her very simple questions and she was answering her with very weird answers.
D: About being at my mom's, about being stung by ants and she showed her several places on her where she had like bite marks and she told her about um, being stung by a scorpion.
A: Okay. Did Mary look at the injury to her knee? That you said is a cigarette burn, did Mary look at that at all?
D: Um, I don't remember if she did or not.
C: May I prompt another detail?
C: That you are omitting at some point, did she speak of electrocution?
D: Yeah, She said that she had been electrocuted.
D: And she showed Mary and myself some marks on her hands.
: Okay.
C: Will you elicit elaborate on what that means to you based on your experience? (inaudible).
D: That these were very small marks, that they often times they would use little um, like the first thing I can remember from my thoughts was actually they wet my hand and had me pull out an electrical cord and it blistered my hand.
D: This was like when I was very, very small. I think there even could have been the night my grandpa died.
A: And you talk about they being?
D: Being like my mom, my grandma, whoever. I don't remember actually who did that to me but I remember that happening. But they would take a little electrical things and shock you.
D: Some little electrical things through you and um, also, and this is I have been telling Mary this for a long time, that they would use like um, a cattle prod to move an animal around with on you often.
A: Okay. Why would they hit you with that? I mean, so far you indicated just like on a hand type stuff?
D: No, the back of the neck.
D: Um, on my bottom um just different places.
A: What would be the effect of the cattle prod have on you? What would happen when you got hit with the cattle prod?
D: Well it would like, um make you not want to move.
A: Okay. Did you have any injuries from the cattle prod?
A: What type of injuries did you have?
D: Like um, little red burn marks.
D: Marks.
C: She has one now. She has recently been assaulted by the son of Mackey. Will you show them?
D: Yeah, I don't know how much it's there right now.
C: And how old is this feature?
D: Over two weeks.
C: Show them.
D: I don't know if you can see.
A: Okay um, again I don't see…I don't see just a real red area is there something specific?
C: Not sure, it's diminished. I tried to video tape this a weel ago and it didn't come out very well but there is a red swatch and um, the center portion of it is a little more crimson.
A: Okay. That's generally what I see kind of a red area on the back of your neck.
D: That's almost two weeks ago and when he saw me he took a picture of it.
(too many speak at once).
A: Cattle prod?
D; A cattle prod.
B: And what's his name?
D: His name is XXXXXX he often goes by XXXX. And he does have a record.
B: And where did the assault take place?
D: San Luis Obispo.
B: Did you report it?
B: Where dit
(many speak at once).
D: And there's a reason.
B: Where did it occur in San Luis Obispo?
D: Um, at a motel. I'm trying to think which one, because I've been taken to several motels. So let me think about that a little bit I can tell you.
B: He took you to this hotel?
B: Forcefully?
D: Forcefully in the way that I knew if I didn't go I be a lot more hurt.
A: Okay. So you were intimidated into going to the hotel?
B: Was there any sexual assault that occurred also?
D. Yes I think that if there was a woman who could see my bottom that would be better but I still have a mark there also.
B. Do you know which hotel this took place in.
D. Yeah, but I can't remember right now.
B. No but you would be able to?
D. Yeah.
B. And did you rent the room or did he rent the room?
D. Often times they would have me rent the room but I can't remember exactly how that time?
B. Okay, but you would be able to um, to show us a room number or show somebody the room…
B. …that it occurred in so we could find out?
B. And when did this occur?
D. About two weeks ago. A little over two weeks ago I think.
C. Well I visited you on Friday uh…
D. Twelfth.
C. Twelfth.
D. It was before that.
B. Okay.
A: These marks that you talk about, are they. And you probably saw the one on the back of her neck, are they a single red mark or are they two red marks next to each other?
B: A single red mark. They're both in the, it's hard for me to see in the back of my neck. I can only look in a mirror.
A: But you have these on other parts of your body, right?
D: Yeah and usually it's more where the center will be a darker color red than the outer part.
A: The outer portion?
C: And you are saying you have currently visible marks on your bottom?
C: That a female detective could observe?
A: And this, from the same time about two weeks ago?
D: Uh huh
A: And when was the last time you saw those, 'cause compared to what's on your neck the whole area is just kind of redish colored. Have you seen them recently so that we know they are still there?
D: I could go look.
A: Okay. Do you want to do that?
A: Now is probably a good time to take a few minutes and (inaudible) if there is anything else.
(Miscellaneous side conversation, hear someone leave the room).
C: Some of the material on the video tape rich labels (mumbles, inaudible)
C: (mumbles).
A: So it's (inaudible) Okay.
C: (inaudible, soft spoken) Okay.
A: I'm going to go make a quick phone call and I'll be right back.
C: Sure, I', going to use the bathroom.
A: Straight out and to your right there.
(Long pause)
A: (inaudible).
(Miscellaneous voices, nothing audible).
D: I do have a mark.
A: Still there? Okay. We'll see if we can get a female detective to come look at it okay? Be back in a second.
A: (inaudible) be right back.
(Short pause).
D: If they don't believe me, this is really gonna suck. Because I'm, what am I going to do with those people knowing I was here and…
C: Right. I think that most people recognize you're doing this at considerable personal exposure and (inaudible).
D: Well I think they do.
C: Feel free to engage them in any, ask them. Okay? It's okay for you to express yourself. It's okay for you to express and articulate your concerns. It's okay for you to tell them what you want them to know.
D: I also wanted to tell them that I have told Mary forever about how they hit you in the head. That's their favorite place to hit you because they don't leave marks.
C: They why don't you tell them that (coughs). There are several things that we need them to hear. (Long pause) I need to check myself into a hospital somewhere in Florida for a couple of weeks of sunshine and surf.
D: I'm ready to puke and…
C: Well there is a garbage can in here.
D: I know. I, uh, look how many of these things I've eaten. I'm just like, I know that as soon as this is over I'm gonna just crash.
C: Well, you know what, it's called (inaudible) okay and (inauduble).
(Door opens).
C: Nancy has told me she is approaching uh crash several things that she urgently wants to communicate to you all.
A; Okay.
C: Do you want me to outline them?
(All speak at once, inaudible).
B: Let's have Nancy ask the questions you know, tell us what you need to tell us. And then we've got some questions too.
D: Okay.
B: Okay.
D: What I would like to tell you is that I am very concerned for my safety and I don't know what I will do if you don't listen to what I am saying. I took great personal risk to myself to do this.
D: And I hope you understand that. I also want to be very up front with you in that I have reported things to law enforcement several times and had them uh, not believe me about weird wacko things that I have been telling you about um, that would be in San Luis Obispo County and when I was living in Wyoming and um, well actually um when I worked with Inyo County um, there was a lot of things that I told them about pornographic films and torturers of animals and things and they told me at the time if I said any of that stuff at the trial that it would make me sound crazy and they just want to get this person on the assault charges.
A: Okay, and this is a person on a sexual assault charge?
D: on Macky.
B: You talking about Macky.
D: I'd also like to say that I have and Mary can vouch this for me, that I have been talking about things like this for the last ten years and Mary has tried to get me help with this from a law enforcement agency and nobody would listen.
D: And that makes me feel like I didn't do enough that is someone would have listened and they would have realized that these people are really going on and that I wasn't making them up (pause) and the reason I am really concerned about my niece and what's happening to her and what's already happened.
D: And I know that it's just not, that there are also other children involved that I'm
concerned about.
A: Okay. What other children are involved?
D: Well I meant that I thing I am concerned about Daphne White.
D: And her grandmother's (inaudible) thing when I asked her about how she was doing was to me like I wanted to just, somehow go through the telephone lines at her when she was telling me that.
B: Okay Nancy, we're going to respond to your concerns because Tom and I have both done a lot of these types of investigations and um, I know that Lee has probably been on both ends of these types of investigations too. These are very serious allegations and that's why we had to be, we had to take a critical eye when you are telling us this stuff. That's why we are asking you all the background information ways to verify how this stuff happened. If we can't verify independently, if we can't corroborate in some independent means, it's not going to go anywhere and, and, to be honest with you, it's not fair to those that are being accused of this to go forward and Mr. Lee would probably agree with that. We've got to ask these specific questions so we can find ways of independently corroborating what you are telling us. So you might, it may appear to you that we are not believing you and you may…
D: No I haven't…I haven't felt that. I understand.
B: But I'm just saying, if you are or whatever, to be honest with you, it really doesn't matter to us. We have to take a critical eye towards this and, and that's what we are going to do and, and actually we'd probably tale less of a critical eye than if this would go to court or go to trial or be judged so that we nail them what we are doing right here and that's what in a way we are preparing for. And you've been through this before. You've probably had this thrown at you during the Mackey investigation. Correct?
D: Yeah, and uh…
B: Well, you understand where we are coming from then on this thing?
D. I do.
B. Alright.
D: I do understand.
C. But I also think if you talk to XXXX or XXXX you need to ask about all the events that took place upon my life at the time of the trial. About how there was a bomb threat called into the school I was attending in Torona and it had to be evacuate the entire high school up to the football field.
B. Hey, you know, you don't have to convince me of that. As well, I…
D: I'm just saying.
(Some inaudible, both A and B speak at once).
B. The Mackey thing is a done deal. I mean the guy either pleas guilty or was found guilty. I think he plead guilty, so that's a done deal. That one's (inaudible, A&B speak at once).
C. I'm just saying safety issues that they have been after me in very cruel ways for a long, long time.
A. Well, we understand your concerns and we're glad you told us.
B. Will you remember, because you asked me to remind you, about the head hitting.
C. Oh okay, I would like for you to ask Mary when you speak to her about how long I have told her about their favorite place for um to be hit is in the head.
A. Okay, and what does that have to do with…
D. I'm just saying that that is a place where they like to smack you around and that is because they don't necessarily want you walking around with big bruises and if they smack you really hard in the head it doesn't usually leave a visible bruise.
A. And how does that relate to the sexual assaults that have occurred against you?
E. I mean that, they did that very often
A. Strike you in the head?
A. Okay.
D. With fist, usually fists, they'd pound me in the head.
E. But I would really like you to ask her about that.
B. What did, or when did you first tell Mary the therapist about Uncle John? When did you first mention it, do you remember?
D: Well…
B: Let me ask you this, was it before or after um, December of 96 (inaudible, A&B speak at once).
D: I'll tell you, Mary had that letter in her possession before 1996.
B: Okay, hold on, before or after the um Ramsey homicide?
D: Before.
B: It was before? Okay.
C: In 1974.
B: In 1974, okay. And she had that letter, did you relate to her before the homicide then the information about Uncle Johnny because it doesn't mention anything about assaults in there. Did you mention to her about Uncle Johnny assaulting you before the homicide?
D: I'm sure I did. I'm sure that I, uh, at some point I made a list of different people names and that was before anything came up and I'd like to tell you that I have, uh, Mary would, better be able to tell you, but there was a break in my therapy with Mary.
D: Um, sometime during that, in fact, when all of this happened in Boulder, I was not seeing Mary.
A: So let me take it one step further. So you talk about Uncle Johnny with Mary prior to the Ramsey homicide? And it wasn't until after the Ramsey homicide when you saw pictures of John Ramsey on the news that you equated John Ramsey with Uncle Johnny?
B: Was that then when you got the letter from your mother to your grandmother that refers to Johnny?
D: No. That letter…
B: Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, no I'm thinking of this other letter here. So the Uncle Johnny, well you're saying that Mary had possession of that before the homicide.
D: Right and then Mary gave me back some of my papers and I think that I had that letter and then I gave it back to Mary.
B: How many papers did you give Mary? I mean have…
D: How many papers?
B: How many letters.
C: I'd say a box.
B: I mean is there a stack a box and…and…and this was all given to her over time during your therapy?
B: Okay, so there's lots of stuff you gave her?
D: Quite a bit more.
B: Okay, did you have any other therapists besides Mary?
D: Um, …very…let's see, I was seen by a court appointed psychologist and um, when the Mackey trial was happening there was a doctor in Bakersfield that did the evaluation of me.
A: Do you remember the doctor's name?
D: I sure do, I don't know why.
D: His name was Doctor XXXX.
A: Can you spell the last name for me?
D: XXXX.
(End of side of tape).
B: (in progress, second side of tape 3) wanted to talk about but you didn't. Do you think of some stuff that you would like to talk to the doctor about?
D: I'm saying I talked to the District Attorney's office about it at the time. They told me we want to get this person but they started saying these other things were not going to be able to. People aren't going to understand what you are trying to say.
A: And we understand that but then at the same time did you tell this court appointed doctor this information also? Did you give that same information to the court appointed doctor?
D: No, because I think that was before. I mean they did the psychological evaluation I think was pretty soon after um, the allegations were made. So I'm not really…
B: I have a real quick question about that. Was your mother supportive during this thing?
B: Did she show up in court? Was she in court?
D: Uh, …
B: Were any of your family members?
D: Uh, my…I'm trying to hink…my dad came and I don't know that my dad went inside the court room um, XXXX was there.
B: XXXX ?
D: Yeah, the theacher.
D: because I was living with his family.
A: During that time?
D: Uh-huh. And um, my mom basically at that time when things were going on
D: Uh-huh. And um, my mom basically at that time when things were going on I was um pretty much shunned by the rest of my family. I was with the rest of my immediately family. I would see my sister or brother, I mean my sister told me later on that they were told I was, that they were to act as though I were dead.
A: Okay. Did social services take you out of your family…parents house?
D: No, I did.
A: Okay. Social Services didn't get involved as fad as removing you from the family home or anything?
B: Had you even gone to Aspen to see Fleet White Senior?
B: And when was the last time you went there?
D: I tried to tell you that it was in the 70's sometime.
D: And then I went with my grandma and grandpa. I Think that would have been after my grandpa retired and I would have to find out when that was.
B: Okay. And that was the only time you went to Aspen?
D: That I have any recollection of, yes.
A: Okay. Was this kind of a family trip, you and your grandparents?
D: Uh-huh.
A: I mean, it wasn't they say let's go, you have to go or anything like that, it was more just you with your family, your grandparents that makes sense.
D/ Uh-huh. I was taken on several different trips with my grandparents Krebs and different things happened on those trips and it was like every summer that they would take my sister and I on these three week vacation things and they would all be about vacations, it would be about stopping at different peoples houses along the way and different things being abused on the way.
A: Okay. So basically your grandparents would take you and your sister?
D: I think one time my brother went but most of the time it was my sister and I.
B: On basically a family trip to a location or a destination…
D/ Different locations. Like I can remember that we stopped in places like Santa Rosa, um…
A: California?
D: …Yeah, Hooverville, Ferndale, um Portland, Oregon, um, one time we went all the way up to Canada and went to Vancouver Island, went to um, Penticton, Princeton and um, different places.
A: And on these family trips, then with your grandparents, were you sexually assaulted along the way by different people? Did they…
A: Specific stops at different locations for youo to be sexually assaulted at?
A: Ok…aAnd that's the way,, when you took the trip to Aspen to see Fleet White Senior…
D: That was with my other set of grandparents, but the same kind of a deal.
A: Okay, so both sets of grandparents, if they would take you and your sister on a family vacations during the summer, you would make stops along the way?
A: And these stops were so that different people could sexually assault you?
A: Is that right? Okay.
B: You know we haven't talked about him yet, Fleet White junior. We need to talk about the details of the assaults, how he was involved, if at all. We didn't talk, we
talked about Senior and I think we ra;;ked about John Ramsey but you (inaudible).
C: (coughing).
A: And actually you were getting ready to talk about the last time Fleet White Junior assaulted you and we kind of took a break and (inaudible)
C: And you said it was gruesome.
S. It is.
A: Okay. Can we talk about that, can you tell us what occurred on the last time?
D: Um, I, I want to describe the layout of my moms place in Trona.
D: It would make a little bit more sense. When we first moved there, um, Tom, my step dad had a trailer that had two bedrooms and his brother Mackey and his two young sons were already living there. So with myself, my sister and I shared a room, my mom and my step day shared a room and the rooms were at opposite ends of the trailer and my brother Mackey, XXXX and XXXX all stayed out in the living room of the trailer. Also on the property was a, like a um, like a pull type trailer and um, like this little uh a little trailer and sometimes Mackey would stay out there and on this night in particular, the last night that I remember Fleet White being involved, a lot of Mackey's and Tom's nephews, there's a whole bunch of Boykin's that live out there and a bunch of their friends and Fleet White Junior and my step dad and Mackey all raped, I can't remember who took me out to the trailer, I think it was Mackey, he tied me up in the the trailer and um, they would he would instruct certain people to come in and they used a small coke bottle on me several times and what I can remember about Fleet being there was him being um very, very rough with the coke bottle that he used and that they were sticking these sticks in my rear end and that, I remember I had passed out a couple of times during the things that were happening because there were just so many people there and I can remember him telling me because I was…was bleeding and everything that this is something that not his just accused but that when you're old enough to bleed you're old enough to butcher.
A: Okay. Now who specifically said that?
D: Fleet White but he was not the only person who told me that.
D: I mean that was something that also that Mackey told me but I can remember that he said that to me.
A: Okay, so he being Fleet White said that?
B: Jr.?
D: Jr.?
A: Okay was Senior there that night?
D: No, I don't remember him being there.
A: And how old, approximately how old is Fleet White Junior um that last time?
D: Well, I'd say I was probably fourteen or fifteen years olD: So he'd probably have been twenty eight or so, thirty.
A: Ok D: I don't know, just around there.
A: Around that age? Is Priscilla White involved in anything like that?
D: No. She was not there.
A: Okay, she wasn't there at all?
D: She was not.
B: Did you ever um see Uncle Johnny and Fleet White Junior or Senior together?
D: On multiple occasions.
B: Which place, at this place?
D: No. Earlier, especially when I was younger.
B: Okay, about how old?
D: Like from four to say ten. I would say there was more concentration during that time of those three people all being there.
A: Okay. So again, after around the time you were ten, is that the last time you think that Uncle Johnny was?
D: No, I think that he was at the apartment building that we had and I would have been older at that time.
D: I would have been more like eleven, twelve, thirteen, until we move to Trona. And I do know this, you were asking me about social services…was social services ever called in…calling and um, when we lived at that apartment building, there were so many people, so many men coming in and out of the apartment building that the neighbors called child protective services.
D: And I don't know whatever happened to that because soon after that we moved to Trona.
A: Okay, so that was around the time you were eleven to thirteen, that social services was called, child protective services?
D: Well, I think that it was closer, very close to the time that we actually moved to Trona,
Which was when I was thirteen.
D: And I think that that was part of the reason for us moving because they were getting worried that we were drawing too much attention at that apartment building.
D: I, I do still know of one person that lives in Los Osos actually two people that live in Los Osos that knew mw as a young girl who have told different people, one lady told Mrs. B that two lived next door to us when we lived on Second Street and she would she told Mrs. B that uh, that um, that I had the worst life that she had ever heard about that she had seen so many people coming in and out of our house and she had heard so much about our house that she wondered how I was even still around.
A: And who would this lady be?
D: Her name is, um, XXXX and she just remarried not very long ago and I, when she lived on this street her last name was XXXX.
A: XXXX ?
A: And how old is XXXX now?
D: She's probably in her eighties.
A: Okay and you think she just remarried?
D: Well, um, Mrs B knows her and she would probably know more about that. She could tell you 'cause she actually had talked to her.
D: And then uh, there's another lady and her name is XXXX and she lived across the street from us in the apartment building.
A: Do you know XXXX last name?
D: Um, at the time her name was XXXX.
D: And um, I don't know what her last name is now but I know where she works?
A: Okay, where does she work?
D: At XXXX in Los Osos.
A: And how old is XXXX ?
D: Um, she's probably in her fifties.
A: Okay, Okay. Anything Chuck.
B: Uh, I don't think so, let me check something her real quick.
A: Nancy, while he's checking is there anything we haven't asked you or you haven't touched upon today?
D: No, if there is I can't even think about it right now.
B: You know what might be helpful is, I know you wrote that letter, but is it possible for you to set down with your therapist and to write your details out as much as possible with um, with names and phone numbers as much as you can, can remember? Um…
A: How can I do it when y therapist is in California.
B: Well, or by yourself. You know, I know we've covered a lot of territory here and there might be stuff that we missed in fact that may be the thing to do is that there is things come to mind that you remember, jot them down and you can send them to us through Lee if you like or send them to Tom at our address, okay?
D: Yeah, so what's going to happen with me?
A: What do you mean what's going to happen?
D: I want to know how you people are going to protect me from somebody who probably already knows that I'm here.
D: And I'm sure he doesn't have guts enough to come slit my throat himself but I would not put it past him to do something to me.
A: Are talking specifically Fleet White Senior?
D: Well, I wouldn't out it past either one of those people.
A: Fleet White Junior?
D: Yeah, but I don't think they would actually come and do something to me themselves. I think they are way to chicken to do such a thing.
D: But I think they would certainly want me to shut my mouth and I think that if they wanted me to do that they would, I have no doubt in my mind that they would knock me off right at this moment if they could.
A: Okay. And, Lee, this is what I would have to say about the whole thing. Um, there was a detective out there in California that I spoke to that knows you're out here. I don't know what all XXXX has told anybody um, but the bottom line is if she's told anybody anything is that you are in Boulder with Lee Hill. Does XXXX know about Lee Hill at all?
D: The only way that XXXX could now about Lee Hill is if she got onto my computer.
A: Okay. Is that something she could do?
D: My computer is still there. She…
A: Your computer is at XXXX house?
D: No, it's at my house.
D: And my…XXXX is very friendly with my grandmother and I'm sure that XXXX has been over there several times if my grandma is still there.
A: Okay. And what's on your computer tying you to Lee Hill, other than the contact through the Fox.
C: Uh, the history of the computer has maintained a history of websites that you visit.
A: Okay. Is that something she would be smart enough to do?
C: Apparently that has occurred before.
D: I've had a, I've had a computer before and my um, my computer was actually taken from me once before so I mean, uh, not by any law enforcement people.
A: Right. So let me put this back in perspective. So Lee, she, they may know that she is in Boulder, they may know that she has had contact with you but they have no idea where Nancy would be staying specifically. I mean we haven't gone into that, you know, where you are staying here in Boulder or anything. The only address we have for you is out in California. Um…
D: I'm telling you that these people are not stupid. And, they have a vested interest in…
C: Uh, uh, let me ask you…
A: Uh-huh.
C: If you are prepared, if you have any resources or if I should be talking to Alex about protective resources or…also this interview hasn't covered all the material that has relevance to ongoing criminal activity.
C: Uh, in other interviews with Nancy she has detailed and given me names, addresses and phone numbers of people who are in the business of transferring digital images of children having sex on…to cds and so on.
C: In Arkansas we have the names of the name of that person and there is a lot of other information on ongoing federal criminal activity. I realize that's not your jurisdiction.
A: Right.
C: But um, and, and, recorded telephone messages left on her therapist's answering machine I recorded on video tape and you hear uh, her grandmother making statements like Nancy is forgotten more than you'll ever know. Leave her, uh, you know…
B: Uh, hold on, let me stop just a second, we're getting off of actually the subject matter so let me just go off record and then I'll get Alex in here and maybe he can be part of this conversation.
X. She's, she's got a critical concern that's, hasn't documented. Also some of the issues that she's had dealing with local law enforcement having been very frustrating and there is a perception that they are either I don't, please don't take offense, I don't mean to disparage any law enforcement officer…
A: Yeah
C: …but she has a perception that they are at the very least, very influenced by these rich powerful people out there.
A: Uh-huh
C: And so there is a big precluding to discredit her that has been utilized This affect has
been akin to, with the Chicago Police handing that Filipino boy back to Jeffrey Dahmer, and she is very much afraid of that happening here.
A: Okay. And again, Alex may be able to help address some of the issues you have, um, but yeah I think one of the most important things are one, somebody may know you are in Boulder. They may know that you have had contact with Lee Hill and that's uh, okay, and say somebody does know you are in Boulder, somebody does know you have contact with Lee Hill
(tape ends abruptly)