text:
Yugoslavia, interrupted: A European success story ruined by NATO invasion
Sat, 27 Feb 2016 12:12 UTC
© unknown
Yugoslavs protest as their country is
civil war-ized by the US and EU
If NATO hadn't ruined Yugoslavia, the country would be on par with major European powers, US political analyst Phil Butler notes, adding that the dismantling of Yugoslavia was part of the West's bigger plan to convert potential rivals into Third World regions.
Post-World War II socialist Yugoslavia was something of a European success story and it was that prosperity that prompted the Western political establishment to seek the country's dismantling, US political analyst Phil Butler emphasizes.
"Can you imagine Europe today with Yugoslavia as a key player among nations? I can. Yugoslavia was in fact, one of the greatest cultural and human experiments in history. Formed in the crucible that was the conflict in between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Ottoman Empire, Yugoslavia melded together people of both cultures, and in ways not seen since the time of Alexander the Great's assimilation of peoples after immense conquest," Butler writes in his article for New Eastern Outlook.
The political analyst underscores that the state was built on an idea that Southern Slavs should not remain a weak and divided people.
Butler calls attention to the fact that between 1960 and 1980 Yugoslavia boasted one of the most vigorous growth rates in the world with its free medical care and education, a guaranteed right to a job, one-month vacation with pay, decent standards of living and a literacy rate of over 90 percent.
The Yugoslavia GDP in 1991 positioned the country as 24th among world nations, the analyst stresses.
Furthermore, Yugoslavia had been struggling for the Non-Aligned Movement's ideals, summoned by Cuba's Fidel Castro as:
"The national independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity and security of non-aligned countries [in their] struggle against imperialism, colonialism, neo-colonialism, racism, and all forms of foreign aggression, occupation, domination, interference or hegemony as well as against great power and bloc politics."
Yugoslav president Tito was one of the founders of the Non-Aligned Movement along with the Indian president Nehru and Egyptian president Naser. The organization was founded in 1961 in Yugoslav capital Belgrade.
It was that economic prosperity and ideological independence that caused Western powers to seek to curtail the rapid growth of the European competitor.
"The county could not be allowed to compete with Germany, France, and especially Britain, and the London and Luxembourg bankers could not extract their billions in a socialistic system. Yugoslavia had to die, and the Reagans, the Bush family, and Clintons helped make it happen," Butler narrates, citing Michael Parenti, Visiting Fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington DC.
Parenti elaborated that Washington's ultimate goal was to transform Yugoslavia into a Third World region. The plan envisaged splitting the nation up, opening its economy to Western corporatocracy and bankers, and dismantling Yugoslavia's industrial sector so that the nation would not be able to compete with Western manufacturers. In this context the Yugoslav population would become a cheap labor pool.
"Does this strategy sound familiar? Remember the Rand Corporation plan for Syria. Were Ukraine, Donbass, and Crimea understood before the Euromaidan? What is the plan for Russia? This is where the metal meets the meat my friends," Butler emphasizes.
The analyst points out a surprising similarity between the propaganda campaign kicked off by NATO members before launching their deadly strikes against Yugoslavia and their narrative on the eve of the invasion of Iraq or Libya.
The Clinton administration's bombing campaign aimed at carving Kosovo out from Serbia was later dubbed "the most important precedent, supporting the legitimacy of unilateral humanitarian intervention" by Fernando R. Teson, an Argentine-American legal academic, known for his contribution to the law of humanitarian interventions.
So, has NATO's plan really worked? Yes, indeed.
Butler emphasizes that Bosnia and Herzegovina now ranks 112th economically, and conditions are worsening; Croatia is currently 76th, but Bloomberg names the country one of the ten worst on Earth; Macedonia ranks 130th; Montenegro is 149th among world nations; Serbia is ranked 87th in GDP; Slovenia ranks 81st in GDP.
Kosovo terrorists acknowledging their masters
As for the Kosovo region, carved out from Serbia, it has lately been labeled as a "mafia state."
"With an unemployment rate of 35 percent, Kosovo is wracked by persistent outbreaks of terrorism, crime, and political violence," US writer Jonathan Marshall notes in his article for Consortiumnews.com.
By no means can former Yugoslavian parts be considered competitors to major EU states.
Furthermore, NATO is swallowing the states one by one. Montenegro began accession talks with NATO on February 15.
On February 12 Serbian lawmakers ratified a diplomatic immunity agreement and logistical support for NATO representatives. Several days later Serbian President Tomislav Nikolic signed a confirmation of the country's cooperation plan with the alliance. The move prompted Serbian patriotic activists to hold peaceful demonstrations in Belgrade against the country's cooperation with NATO.
"And as I type these final letters, I think about what the courageous and strong people of Yugoslavia might have won had their destinies not been interrupted by outsiders," Butler concludes.
Angel · 2016-02-27T13:29:21Z
ridiculous statements from the Russian propaganda machine. Yugoslavia was created artificially with Stalin's blessing and the initial plan was to also include Bulgaria. Luckily Georgi Dimitrov probably didn't want to drop all power to Tito and this didn't happen, otherwise Bulgaria would have been involved in the Yougoslav war.
Nobody asked the Croatians, Bosnians nor Slovenians if they wanted to be ruled by Serbians who as long term Russian allies were practically gifted the 3 other states. Later on Tito's relationships with Stalin deteriorated as he wanted Yougoslavia for himself and the Russians even tried to kill him many times without success. Some documents even show that Tito fed up with Stalin sending him assassins probably managed to organise poison in his food which mimicked a stroke.
Tito's letter in Stalin's office read: 'Stop sending people to kill me. We've already captured five of them, one of them with a bomb and another with a rifle... If you don't stop sending killers, I'll send one to Moscow, and I won't have to send a second.'
All through the existence of Yugoslavia, Serbia (a small inland state without tourism, with ugly plain landscape and no minerals) was practically financially supported by Croatia and Slovenia mainly through tourism. The other main income was the hundreds of thousands of Yugoslavians who went to work in Germany and started sending money back home. Don't you think they would not be emigrating if the economy of their country was flourishing?
I suggest SOTT makes their research before publishing nonsense
Z · 2016-02-27T13:38:10Z
Angel you better get your facts straight - "Serbia a small inland state without tourism, with ugly plain landscape and no minerals " ?!
You pretty much disqualified yourself with such a statement.
have you been there?
Do you contest that Croatia and Slovenia were the developed republics carrying the others on their shoulders?
Do you contest the mass emigration to Germany which only shows the state of their economy?
Revolucionar · 2016-02-27T14:51:51Z
Yugoslavia was a long sought fruition of an old plan called the Great Serbia. It was a gift by the Britts for their services in fomenting WW1. The guy writing this article believes Yugoslavia WAS what it said it was, but it was, in fact, just the Serbian empire. 80-90% of all military officers, company managers and so on, were Serbs. Serbia was leeching off of the wealthier countries, Croatia and Slovenia. It seems that the west started pushing the Serbs into more open hegemony and then turned the tables on them profiting unbelievably from the ashes of, mostly, Croatian economy. The Serbs have always been imperialists, and in the end got what they deserved, not to say that the west didn't actively work on this. The Serbs were duped into thinking they would rule, but were just used to disintegrate the Balkans and make everyone join the west.
Joe · 2016-02-27T18:32:43Z
Most countries were created "artificially". The fact remains that Yugoslavia was a large and functioning nation state that was destroyed by NATO specifically because it was big enough and coherent enough to be a threat to US imperial designs.
saying it was destroyed by NATO is giving them too much credit. It imploded on itself with some help from the west playing all sides and making promises they wouldn't keep. The nations of this "functioning" state you are referring to have all wanted out. NATO and the MSM did not control the minds of these people. It was not a nation state, but an empire as I keep reiterating. And it was not as functioning as you would like to believe. It depended heavily on western loans, it's currency considered worthless all over the west, and that is one reason why ex-Yu actually liked the fact that people went to europe to work: to return with foreign currency to be able to pay all these loans back. When Tito died, Yu had no credibility left in finance, loans being caled in, rampant inflation, and inter republic inequality led to it's natural demise, except for the war that was entirely unnecessary. The Serbs were promised supremacy, they went for the kill, and then had the west's back turned on them.
No romantic idea that was squashed by the west here. It died years before they could do anything.
NightDay · 2016-02-28T22:37:08Z
Yugoslavia "was a large and functioning nation state" - people who write this stuff or have Yugonostalgia (ie. blind ignorants, or were party members), or really didn't live in Yugoslavia. Yes, it was really fun with lack of food, electricity, gasoline, everything people had in the West decades ago. It was really fun when families were deprived of land or property because had "too much for Communist ideal".
The argument that it was a "functioning state" ie. economy wise, is a total nonsense. European Union, or unions in general, are based on mutual economy, and mutual economy of interest can be regulated via agreements with the facilitation. Yugoslavia failed because, like singer-songwriter Chris Rea said on remark to EU, with a common market "you cannot force different people to live together [when] they simply do not want to". Country is made of people, made of nation ethnogenesis, its history, culture, tradition. In Yugoslavia existed 6 different nations and countries, with different languages, cultures, traditions, histories. Denial of ethnic identity and origin is not how countries future is built.
hoyeru · 2016-03-09T00:13:05Z
your opening sentence proved beyond the shadow of a doubt you are both a troll and a paid shill. There is NO such thing as a "Russian propaganda", except in the USA/Europe Corporate Controlled Media. But I will answer you, even tho you're a 100% disgusting paid shill troll who spends his time reading web sites that publish "nonsense" (Your own words).
Let's begin with the few lies USA/NATo have said over the last 25 years:
1. Weapons of mass distraction Iraq. We ALL know how that turned out, still waiting for them weapons. You got any to show? Bet you do.
2. Assad gassing his own people.
3. Iran about the have the bomb every 5 months(since 1980),
4 the phantom Russian solders who have invaded Ukraine over 40 times. Not even a single verifiable photo to date. Sorry, youtube vids dont count
5 babies placed to die on the cold hospital floor during the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq. Turns out the "eye witness" "nurse" was the daughter of the ambassador who was coached to lie. So much for truth from the so called free Western media
I can list a lot more but let's list the lies Putin has said:
(crickets........................................ ........................................ ............................)
ALL countries are artificial creations. Period. No country is organic creation. Did anybody ask the India, sorry Native Americans to be ruled by USA? Did anybody ask the Native Americans if their land was to be stolen? Bulgaria, where I am from was artificially created, stolen lands from the Byzantium empire in 681 AD. Did Bulgarians ask the Byzantines if they could make a country there? They just came and took over. Did the Turks asked Bulgarians to rule over them for 500 years? Be serious and try better troll.
Yes I have been to Yugoslavia as child in the 1970s and they lived VERY VERY well. Europe just couldn't stand that. And when the artificial civil war was happening in Yugoslavia, what did Europe, the great Democratic place do? They turned their backs to Yugoslavia letting untold people be slaughtered. But that's what Europe does best. Today Ergougan is slaughtering Kurds and the fake EU is making deals with him, giving him billions.
if you find what SOTT writes nonsense, why are you reading nonsense then? Go back to read FAUX news or CNN or whatever you read that is NOT nonsense.
The departure of Yugoslavs seeking work began in the 1950s, when individuals began slipping across the border illegally. In the mid-1960s, Yugoslavia lifted emigration restrictions and the number of emigrants, including educated and highly skilled individuals increased rapidly, especially to West Germany. By the early 1970s 20 percent of the country's labor force or 1,1 million workers were employed abroad.[17] The emigration was mainly caused by force deagrarization, deruralization, and overpopulating of larger towns.[18] The emigration contributed to keeping the unemployment checked and also acted as a source of capital and foreign currency
By 1988 emigrant remittances to Yugoslavia totalled over $4.5 billion (USD), and by 1989 remittances were $6.2 billion (USD), which amounted to over 19% of the world's total
lysna · 2016-02-27T14:33:59Z
I was there in the midd & late 70s & go there regularly now...Compared to the living standard & general welfare of the people in the 70s the ex Yugoslav Republics now are a joke...Unhappy lost people everywhere with no future to look forward to. Youth unemployment is a joke to be honest.
Also don't forget in your stats how many people escaped the country & emigrated for political reasons.
I'm always amazed how welcoming & nice the people there are considering their circumstances..
They do posses a fair bit of negativity towards many things but I don't blame them.
Yes balance of Power between the Yugoslav Republics/Peoples should have been better but it's a common disease most everywhere where racial disharmony exists.
These things could be solved politically...After all it was a well educated nation...
Racism & Power Politics destroyed any hope reconciliation.
there was no balance of power. it was de facto the Serbian empire
@Revolucionar...You need to re-read what I wrote instead of getting all emotional.
I read what you wrote. nothing emotional about my comment. just wanted to let you know that the problems of Yugoslavia were much larger than you think and there was no political solution. the only good solution was peaceful disintegration, which regretably didn't happen
Subtil Spir · 2016-02-27T18:19:14Z
difficultfor traumatized,propagated
Now parts - Republic have trouble even maintain what has been created in Yugoslavia. Factories are ruined, sometimes only because someone threw an eye on the value of land, hospitals and educational system collapse, the army is weaker, the country is more and more borrowing to cover the growing hole. But the disintegration of Yugoslavia was such that even today everyone hates neighbors and many think it is better to be "independent". Independent? All have become dependent on loans from foreign banks and instructions from the EU and the United States.
I just have to mention that the Serbs also played a role in the collapse - and among them were CIA agents (payed and manipulated by CIA). For example, the way in which they try to get back part of the republic of Yugoslavia: unnecessary killing of civilians and the open propagation of a Greater Serbia. It reinforced the resistance even where people would not mind to stay in Yugoslavia. For example, there were mercenaries: led by Seselj, Arkan, who committed crimes, and no one prevented them. Regular army was afraid of mercenaries, or approve them.
Do not be surprised when former Yugoslavia residents say it is better to be torn apart. This is done in such a way that the division is deep and hard to repair. Few can see the bigger picture, but focus on war and victims. It was easier to live in the waves of trauma. But the citizens of Yugoslavia were something, they are now irrelevant.
Yes, it was migration, both before and now, but who remained in Yugoslavia had a dignity and a decent life. Germany was always been richer than Yugoslavia. But, in the former Yugoslavia today factories perishing, and mostly do not build more.
So there was a story that Croatia would be richer if separated, because Serbia is taking money for himself, but after the separation, Croatia barely functioning and increases the level of indebtedness. There is almost no military aviation. Young people are fleeing out.
What the people of the former Yugoslavia need to understand is that they should be tied at the common root (as the southern Slavs), through the similarities and similar interests in order to be stronger and easier to defend their interests. They are pieces for the vultures. And once they were world factor. And they again it can be. But I think that they have to develop their consciousness and earn a better future.
For communion should be increased awareness and a low level of awareness requires fewer herds. The lowest level was when someone loves only himself, the higher is when likes only his family, even higher when he loves his city and so on. Can someone love his neighbors in other Republics? This level is required.
So it was very difficult to maintain Yugoslavia, it was the project ahead of the minds of most.
omelette from an egg
Yugoslavia was also supported the Arab states and the Palestinians, the reason for the Mossad to be included in separation, also. Now they break-up of Arab States calling "balkanization".
Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Yaalon:"We know how to make an omelette from an egg. I don't know how to make an egg from an omelette."
Croatia is not richer because it was not allowed to become that. It was ravaged during and after the war by vulture capitalism, and is still being ravaged. It's economy didn't collapse because it got out of Yu but because it wasn't accepted as a part of the west. Serbia is the exclusive culprit for the horror of the Yu war. They started it because they couldn't stand loosing their empire. Yugoslavia was the Serbian empire, and saying anything else is show a very low level of knowledge of the actual circumstances that led to it's rise and fall.
At the break up of Yugoslavia there was so much propaganda spewing out from all sides that there was no chance of any reconciliation.
Ethnic, Religious, Cultural & Political differences were played on & amplified to the point that the true reason for the manipulated destruction by NATO was totally unseen.
It was a forced & encouraged breakup...War there was inevitable because with so much Nationalistic & Religious fervour & fear mongering by the Politicians & biased MSM any chance of a political resolution was lost...
Things have settled there now but under the surface is another story.
Nationalism & Religion have done their job very well indeed & are well supported agendas of the Governments..
Because they work...
all true, but the war would have been averted if the Belgrade regime was a lot saner. there was a offer for a confederative constitution but the maniacs in Belgrade would settle for no less than great serbia. this was of course because they were encouraged by the west. in the end they lost the war but gained territory. half of bosnia is serbian now, and it never was before.
Avala · 2016-02-28T01:13:50Z
All of you . . .
Ponerized Croatian nationalist, Ustashi or whatever you liked to be called, you really should go and search some help. There is no way that all of you are psychopaths. There must be at least some decent, souled, but unfortunately heavily ponerized people among you. Awake, until its too late!
Love these narrow minded Chetniks ignoring the facts, living in their own fabricated history full of heroic deeds and great victories.
When you accept responsibility, there might be some real change around these parts.
@Avala...PLEASE...These are not the type of comments that are needed in a debate...Narrow name calling & labeling only shows who you are & what you think....Let's stick to facts if we can actually find them, see them & handle the consequences...
VChristine · 2016-02-28T03:30:26Z
Pay Back Time
It would be possible to absolve the United States and its NATO war machine, were they not involved in the dissolution of the Yugoslavian union at all, .. but when US and NATO forces joined the Balkans fray, history has demonstrated anything but altruistic undertones. The repeating story of a well developed system of dismantling, by hook or by CIA crooks, any competing hegemony on the global economic stage, makes the US, a defacto suspect in this story. No matter what the random specifics are for the Balkans wars. The scriptures paint a portrait of the end times USA, in the book of Jeremiah 50 and 51, calling it appropriately, the Hammer of the Earth. You can search, but you won't find a corner of the planet where bombs falling don't have US bar codes on them. What better illustration of a bombing campaign than the Hammer that sees the nations of the world as nails. It's a disgusting legacy, and while it hurts this US military veteran to know it, I'd not be ignorant. I found this article particularly helpful; [Link] One thing is certain, God weighs all the nations of the Earth in a balance, and the final say in this matter is His alone. His payback time is coming to a 'theater' near you.
Editor www.the-parallel-universe.com
The problem is if you realistically weigh God's actions towards human beings you will find HE is nastier than the nastiest you will find anywhere on the planet...And all people believe some God is on Their Side...I say time to act & behave as civilized rational human beings & leave God out of it...It's a fantasy that KILLS & segregates...
gdpetti · 2016-02-28T03:31:47Z
"United we rise, divided we fall".... and everyone knew that the minute Tito died, the game of YU was over... so why didn't he setup someone to take his place? If he tried, it was a complete failure, and it seems he had an idea of what he and his country was up against, trying to straddle that middle line between the Western empire and the Soviet one. I remember wondering why the country didn't find a fix before Tito died, here in the USA, you could sense the vultures waiting in the wings, and the usual economic hitmen and their jackals were so eager to get in there, and they always find 5th columnn types so eager to play with them in destroying their own country... and always in the name of unity.
Lets stick to the facts
Like any other country, Yugoslavia was far from being utopia.
However, if we compare it to what is left of it, or present banana republics - it was a serious sovereign country with long term goals that took good care of its citizens. Both on the paper ( constitution) and in real life it was an equal union of all South Slav nations and other minorities. It was the most progressive society in Balkans- so much so that it attracted thousands of illegal immigrants from neighboring Albania - lets think about it for a moment, they were granted free medical care, schools and media in their own language, voice in the parliament with certain level of autonomy. Same goes for Hungarian, Italian or Slovak minority. Compare this to status of minorities in present day Yugoslav countries. But that's besides the point.
The official policy of post WWII Yugoslavia was "fraternity and unity" and most of Yugoslav citizens be it Croats, Slovenes, Serbs or Macedonians actually believed in these ideas and lived by them - happily. Unfortunately in every barrel there are few rotten apples.
Yugoslav rotten apples, with help of foreign intelligence services managed to dupe small hardworking people which are now paying a terrible price in all ex- Yugoslav republics.
As for the ludicrous statements in some of the comments about Serbs pillaging Croatia and Slovenia under the umbrella of Yugoslav union, one only has to check historical statistics. Up until WWI Slovenia and Croatia were the least developed provinces of Austro-Hungarian Empire, predominately agricultural ( with almost feudal system) and very little industry. Most of the capital and prime properties was owned by foreign aristocrats. Bosnia was largely stuck in Middle ages resembling Ottoman Kalifate more then anything. The real development and blossoming of these republics began after WWII and reached its pinnacle in late 80-ies.
So if Serbs really siphoned off all the money from Slovenia and Croatia - how it is that Slovenia under Tito's rule became industrially and infrastructural most developed part of Yugoslavia, followed by Croatia, Bosnia and then Serbia?
Historically speaking both Croatia and Slovenia ( not to mention Bosnia and Macedonia) haven't enjoyed such level of autonomy and independence since medieval times.
In fact this rhetoric about Serbs plundering others was often used by ultra-nationalists and foreign stooges during the break up of Yugoslavia but has very little basis in reality. These rotten apples promised bright and prosperous future to Croats, Serbs,Slovenes and others once they demolish "federal prison". Well...we all know how that ended.
One only has to compare economical statistics from before and after.
No doubt Tito was a benevolent dictator. It seems this is what people of Yugoslavia needed at the time, and it looks like they still need it very much. If you have to choose between benevolent dictator building a strong, sovereign country with advanced social programs and bunch of psychopaths, criminals and foreign mercenaries in positions of power, filling their own pockets while leaving the country and its people at the mercy of corporate vultures and banksters - tho choice is obvious. Isn't it?
Its hardly suprising that some of the recently conducted pols reveal majority of people from Slovenia to Macedonia still lament about Tito's times of prosperity and social security.
Due you know what's the problem with your "facts"? The "fact" that you forget to mention what the Austria-Hungarian contributed ie. built in Slovenia and Croatia, while Ottoman in Bosnia and Serbia. Thanks to the Austria-Hungary that both Slovenia and Croatia had the infrastructure (especially most important cities in the Adriatic coast, and in the continent), political ambient and culture of the modern 19th and early 20th century, while those countries in the East thanks to the Ottoman influence were decades behind in every aspect to Slovenia and Croatia. Because of this infrastructure, already existing modern economy (although agriculture made the most part, the industrial centeres were the pivotal in the region development).
During Yugoslavia many buildings were built, and industries opened, only because a big part of Yugoslavian population remained without farm animals, their private property was taken and shared by the government, resulting with vast amount of people migrating to the previously mentioned industrial centers. The most important thing to built industry, like infrastructre and city plan, was already made in the time of Austria-Hungary, and really very well.
Recall when asked an old lady in Pula (which was mostly built during Austria-Hungary, and was really important military and industrial Adriatic city at the time, think even more developed and multi-cultural than today), Croatia, about the fall and differences in Yugoslavia. She replied that between Istria and regions in the East like Šumadija, there existed a gap decades old. While the Istrian peasant learned about the urban behavior, theater and modern early 20th century culture in general, literally, those people who came from Šumadija didn't know how to use properly urban toilet (no offense, it was the reality of the time).
That's the answer to your "how it is that Slovenia under Tito's rule became industrially and infrastructural most developed part of Yugoslavia, followed by Croatia, Bosnia and then Serbia?". It already was most developed, your lack of knowledge makes your write this nonsense conclusions.
the point being made is that serbia would still remain a rural country without yugoslavia. it's funny how everyone avoids mention of the first yugoslavia. basically the kingdom of serbia. the second one was no different. fraternity and unity was a load of baloney. I already mentioned the percentage of serbs in all higher echelons of military, bussines and politics. belgrade was the capital, as well. tito was a psychopathic murderer and stalins agent. a country built on internment camps like goli otok and events like the long march across yugoslavia at the end of the war, cannot be deemed good. the motto of the country was upheld through fear of death. whatever you might say, it was a continuation of Greater serbia, which is the main reason it fell apart. the reaction of serbia to talks of separation says everything. military agression as a response to peaceful strivings of its people speaks volumes about what kind of country it was.
Perhaps for you "fraternity and unity" was loads of baloney, but for millions of decent, hard working people it was a way of living.
As mentioned before all the countries in the region - not just Serbia would have been insignificant rural economies and easy pray for their neighbors if it wasn't for unification and especially for Tito's vision.
Again lets get our facts straight.
The top commanding functions in Yugoslav Army were assigned according to the national formula so that all the nationalities would be equally represented. Yugoslav army was once ranked amongst the strongest in the world - this was true in case of external aggression but its commanding structure was its weakest point in case of civil war - which is why it crumbled so easily in 90-ies.
I have difficulties understanding your argument about capital.
The country had 6 republics with 6 respective capitals, Belgrade was the capital of Serbia and it also served as capital of Yugoslavia. I dont see anything wrong with that, its not like Zagreb, Ljubljana, Sarajevo or Skopje didn't equally flourish and kept being developed. One cannot dismiss the fact that Serbia had at least 3 times larger population and territory then Croatia and in case of other republics even more so. So I guess everything was done in proportion.
If Yugoslavia was continuation of the greater Serbia, as you put it - other republics would have never had constitutional sovereignty. Simple as that.
The first Yugoslavia was built on the ruins of Austro-Hungarian Empire as a result of striving of Croatian and Slovene politicians as well as Serbs. In fact it was originally called The Kingdoom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and later changed its name to Yugoslavia. It was a constitutional monarchy and as such had its fair share of problems. Tito's Yugoslavia was much improved version of the first Yugoslavia.
I am not sure about which long march across the country you are talking about.
As for the rest - every sovereign country has to have ruthless security service - such is the nature of our world. I am pretty sure Tito's security service was pretty naive comparing to same services of many "democratic and advanced" countries. This doesn't make him "psychopathic killer" as you put it. In fact there is a lot of historical evidence he was an honest, caring and hard working human being.
Z, tell me you're joking - "I am pretty sure Tito's security service was pretty naive comparing to same services of many "democratic and advanced" countries. This doesn't make him "psychopathic killer" as you put it. In fact there is a lot of historical evidence he was an honest, caring and hard working human being".
Z, spare us spreading around lies, wrong image and ignorance about Tito. You're writing from such a subjective point of view it's ridiculous you're mentioning the Work, commenting on this special page, and in the same time defending and calling a dictator "caring human being", who has blood on his hands for tens of thousand dead people (many innocent), and emotionally and spiritually broken families. You know what OZNA and UDBA were and done inside and outside of Yugoslavia? Josip Broz Tito is not a dream story, this is a real world of Political Ponerology, and in this world (especially during WWII) no peasant child who was barely passing in elementary school, a professional locksmith, becomes the president of not 1, but 6 countries in 1!
Wake up from your "dream" about the ideal of both Yugoslavia and Tito, and face the truth and "facts".
serbia had barely double the population of croatia. not more than triple. 80-90% percent of officers being serb was not according to national formula.
it's very telling when you see the two most developed countries wanting out, the whole country clamoring for reform and the only ones trying to keep it the way it was serbia.
and then when it saw it couldn't, lashed out in all out war against it's "brothers". fraternity and unity.....Riiiight! it's obvious who stood to loose most. and that makes it obvious who was actually liking their own position in this country.
the march where tito led thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people, mostly croat, or just political opponents, from austria to macedonia. it's one of the biggest crimes of WW2 in these parts and that's how this fraternity of yours started.
Tito killed and sent so many people to gulags that it's just apsurd what you are saying. also, the way he started his career is very telling of his personality. He got all of his comrades from the communist party in yugoslavia during the thirties in prison, so he could take over.
as far as how good it was for everyone. yes, you had it great if you were a member of the communist party. not so well if you weren't.
I said top ranking military officers, please check the actual statistics.
As for the Serbs "lashing in all out war" things were a little bit more complicated then that. If you cant see this then you are indeed completely indoctrinated and "ponerized'.
I still dont know what march you are talking about. The only thing I can think of is Bleiburg - where Yugoslav People Liberation Army executed war criminals, concentration camp wardens/monsters and Nazi collaborators after they were handed to them by Brits who stopped them in Austria. That you refer to this as "one of the biggest crimes of WW2" is beyond shocking, but then again perhaps you sincerely believe that Jasenovac death camp was actually amusement park were inmates composed operettas and played footbal games all day long - [Link]
Therefore it is no surprise you subscribe to the myths about Tito being Russian or betraying his comrades.
more complicated? haha. interesting. so the croats made them attack with their nonexistent army. it's simple. the serbs had all the guns and decided that no pesky unarmed croats are going to secede if they can bomb the shit out of them.
there's no relativizing this issue. we know who was the agressor and we know .it was unprovoked. you were talking about the yu constitution. well, it gave the right to each republic to secede if they want to. why was this not upheld? please enlighten me with you apologetism.
50000-100000 people killed and they were all war criminals? interesting. even so, don't even war criminals have a right to due process. are you a proponent of extrajudicial executions?
I made no menion of jasenovac. it was a horrible conc camp. but you are right to compare these lesd people died in bleiburg than jasenovac, not that I care, but you seem to be interested in comparing tragedies.
tito came to be the leader of the communist party by betraying his comrades. ..that is a fact.
he was a criminal to say the least.
and he even managed to hijack the antifascist movement in croatia from true patriots and turn it into an extension of soviet strategy.
most partisan were not communists at all. merely patriots unhappy about their country being takrn over by the nazis and italian fascists
Domagoj · 2016-02-28T18:48:15Z
Look no further than here to read moronic Croatian nationalists in these comments that have been fed the propaganda for 25 years now. Croatia has been the largest supporter and enabler of NATO policies in these areas and Croats have been programmed by their elites to hate all that is Serbian and communist.
We are dying as a nation, less and less babies are born, no jobs, the tranistion has swept us away. We swiftly fell into the hands of NATO and EU and now we are suffering the consequences. We are not even a country but a banana-state, so much so that we even transported weapons to Yemen that were eventually used by terrorists. NATO planning to build a large base here and they regularly fly over the unpolluted Adriatic sea with their airplanes to dump their junk. Literaly raping the country in any way they can.
And the number one threat named by right wingers are those "nasty" Serbs and communists (that are no where to be found). (Reminded of fascist ukranian tendencies, anyone?) I am disgusted by this country more and more. It has no future.
why do you think I don't agree with everything you said?
the point of this discussion, for me, was to ascertain that yugoslavia was in no way good for anyone.
our number one threat today is the EU and NATO, but yugoslavia was no better.
I hate no one, I am only aware of history.
Just fed up with people making yugoslavia out to be smtng wonderful.
communism is a scourge just like fascism and capitalism.
it seems to me that you've been programmed into automatically associating anti-communism and defence of our national integrity with fascist nationalism and living in the past.
you and I both know what happened here, and to nlame it all on NATO is to spit in the face of all the victims of war, including ourselves now
Indeed Domagoj, unfortunately we are too busy looking for Serbs and "domestic traitors" to ask questions about things like this: http://hr.sott.net/article/5620-Blagodati-clanstva-u-NATO-u-Zbog-radioaktivnosti-u-Slunju-umire-sve-vise-mladih-zena-i-radaju-se-kljasta-djeca)
or to investigate connection between soaring cancer rates in the region of Ploce and the load that was dumped in nearby sea by NATO planes during bombing campaign in Serbia in 1999.
I think we're too busy lamenting the fall of exYu. but, also agreed. we need to see what's being done to us today. that's exactly why I can't stand these yugonostalgic articles anymore. it tell apart because it was unviable. let's go on. but let us also remember that we have no allies whatsoever. that is the lesson of history. no one will help us, and reinstating failed systems won't help us either.
Persej · 2016-02-28T20:31:59Z
Well, you could also say that West destroyed Yugoslavia firstly by introducing the communism instead of the monarchy (just like what they did in Russia), and then later on by instigating the wars for independence.
If you look at it in that way, then you could say that West played a big role in destroying the lives of Balkan people.
certainly, but some here believe yugoslavia was awesome although it was totalitarian communist dictarorship. saying it was better than now is beside the point. everywhere on earth was it better back then.
Well, it wasn't better everywhere. Most other countries in Europe which had communism were in much worse position then now. That's why they were so happy when they joined the EU. So Yugoslavia was actually an exception to the rule. Yugoslavia didn't NEED to join the EU, unlike other countries. That's why she is an interesting project to study for many people. And even though the system wasn't perfect, it was sustainable and could have possibly evolve into something even better.
But even if it was a "totalitarian communist dictatorship", the main point of the article is still valid - West was afraid of the potential of Yugoslavia and that's why they destroyed it. Just like they destroyed other "dictatorships": Iraq, Libya, Syria...
"totalitarian communist dictatorship". You apparently don't even realize how nonsensical that phrase is!
if you knew anything about it, Joe, and had your family members behind bars for no reason, you would revise your thinking.
but I guess you just like to believe what you set your mind to.
maybe I can get you thinking....
we all know that the USA is rapidly becoming overtly fascist, right?
if you went there and asked regular people about it they would have no idea what you're saying.
same thing with Yugoslavia.
most people lived their lives oblivious. loving their subservience.
some people questioned authorities, which you can still do in america (I don't see any alt-media pundits behind bars), but they ended up in prisons (more like conc camps).
if you think that's smtng good, that the authorites had the right to imprison them for saying things, then I don't know what you are fighting for.
my uncle ended up in prison for singing a song, a song about a mountain for christ sakes. my neighbor was a provocateur. he sent dozens of people to prison for just about anything contrary to the party line.
the people who were in the party had it good, the ones who weren't were coerced to join or, if they resisted, laid off work or sent to prison.
so don't talk about totalitarian dictatorships if you haven't lived through one.
Revolucionar I wonder where do you get your grossly exaggerated figures.
I tend to believe impartial historians more then Croatian daily tabloids:
"British political scientist David B. MacDonald wrote a comprehensive root cause analysis of the inflated numbers in his 2003 book:
By contrast with Jasenovac, however, most impartial historians converged on much lower number of dead, suggesting that Bleiburg was by no means as significant as the largest death-camp in Yugoslavia. ... Jasper Ridley attempts a more precise figure, although there is no way of knowing for sure. ... Of these, he noted that the Allies agreed to surrender 23,000 to the Partisans between 24 and 29 May - a mixture of Slovenians, Serbians, and Croatians. Reports from the time according to Ridley,[81] indicate that not all 23,000 were killed."
In any case these were the troops of a fascist regime who committed most horrible atrocities against their own people and also other nations. It was war and they were executed, this usually happens in wars.
Also where did you get your "fact" about Tito betraying his comrades, from Croatian daily tabloids too?
Nobody is saying Yugoslavia was "awesome" but it was pretty ok. Anyone who lived in it and remembers it can vouch that it was pretty far from "totalitarian communist dictatorship".
In any case I dont see anything wrong in being nostalgic about some happier times. The fact remains that Balkans was freed from fascism thanks to heroic efforts of its people, the same people who literally built prosperous and advanced society from the ashes of WWII with their bare hands - if we cannot draw an inspiration from them when creating our collective future, we must at least acknowledge this part of our history with due respect. Well at least that's the way I see it.
I trust no one. the thruth is somewhere in the middle in these cases.
as you should see I don't get my info from any tabloids. I actually study history.
also, you completely avoided the issue of agression.
btw, check out what happened to the ethnic structure of the JNA command from 87-91.
another thing that gives me the creeps is the constant reference to the yu war as civil war. that is simply wrong. it was an agression of one country against several others.
hmmm. this is very conspicuosly missing from my above comment:
you trust zionist khazar sources with a vested interest in inflating number of jewish deaths and deflating all others. we know this applies to the whole war, so why would it be any different in this context?
how did this disappear? I know I wrote it....what's going on here?
Enough of Yugoslavia
Sott.net, will all due respect you have from me, the article and many others previously on Yugoslavia are written with such an ignorance on the origin of Yugoslavia, its "social"-communist politics (regime) and party, intellectual lack of freedom, ethnical and cultural identity denial due to the creation of the new nation of Yugoslavs (against the Serbs, Croats, Slovenes...) based on artifical Pan-Slavism, its corruption, false "prosperous" economy. It was built on antifacism, in which South Slavs were united, but nothing else. Both Yugoslavias did not function. It was a massacre of intellectual elite because of which until these days this nations suffer. That until these day the same children of those communist party members rule the South Slavic countries. Nothing changed after its fall.
Yes, it can be said that there existed an ideal country (named Yugoslavia or other way) in the minds of 19th century Illyrian Movement, but Yugoslavia was not an ideal dream. It was a brutal reality where anyone emphatic could not be nostalgic about, or say "I was happy in Yugoslavia". No one can be truly happy when your family members, friends, neighbor went to prison, or Goli otok, for several years because said something aloud the regime didn't want you to speak around - to open people's eyes.
Sott, you exist to open people eyes, but this time you need to open your eyes on Yugoslavia.
Just read the book "Uspomene na političke ljude i događaje" by the renowned sculptor and architect of the 20th century, Ivan Meštrović. I don't know if there exist a copy in English, but I hope so because anyone, was it from the West or East, will learn something about the 19th and 20th century politics, and how and what Yugoslavia really was.
With all due respect NightDay - one of the basic premise of the Work is that you can never see yourself as clearly as outside impartial observer can see you. Translating this to Yugoslavia issue I have few books to recommend to you:
Rebecca West - Gray Falcon Black Lamb
Laura Silber - Yugoslavia: Death of a Nation
Misha Glenny: The Fall of Yugoslavia
The basic premise as an argument in this case is false. If you're in the "game", make out (coming in contact to) with the most influential people of the time (was it politics, like Radić, Karađorđević. Pavelić, Tito, or generally like Tesla), and know about the "agenda" which moves the events rolling as they did, and being neutral, then you know far more than simple observer from the outside. You really don't need to pinpoint me some books (by R. West read before) to know about Yugoslavia and would really recommend you to read (if know Serbo-Croatian) the book by I. Meštrović. It was not initially published in Yugoslavia, when did some parts were even censored because it was not a popular book in Yugoslavia for the regime party. He was not "inside", he was always on the side of events observing them. That's why the book is so valuable, and named "Memories of political figures and events".
My friend the aggression was MUTUAL...Allah..Jahwa..Odin...Zeus & Jesus couldn't stop it when it got rolling...I'm not on any ethic side but even if the Serbs accepted a mutual separation...there would always have been disagreement over disputed territories and the mixed races & minorities that inhabited them.
Both Serbia & Croatia were happy to carve up Bosnia to their own liking without thought of what the people there wanted..
This speaks for it self...
When you have the above scenario mixed with hatred, fear mongering, religion & bad politics...you have a one way ticket to what they got...In the end...they all got...NOTHING...
there was only the aerbian agression. that is a fact. saying differently is subscribing to khazarian relativism where truth does not exist.
just look at the results of this carving you speak of. bosnia is half serbian now, and it never was, and they actually lost the war.
there's less croats there now than there ever was.
if they had accepted separation, the borders would be known an inviolable. therr were no disputed territories until the serbs started disputing them.
don't talk out of your ass.
I lived through this, had my family locked up, had my town bombed to kingdom come.
don't insult me and the memory of my loved ones, please.
they say that people show who they are in times of trouble. well, yugoslavia showed exactly what it was all along when the SHTF
re: Revolucionar
Well if you study history then you should known the definition of civil war. There was only one country at the time the war broke out.
Perhaps this is why I avoided the "issue of aggression", I am not interested in debating ad nauseum about chicken and egg problem. It is everyone's individual responsibility to inform themselves correctly.
thank you for showing who you really are.
it would have been a civil war if all parties wanted the same thing and then fought over it.
we know that is not true
Revolucionar..You have an obvious emotional involvement in all this & your thinking is biased & very one sided..I guess it's natural but it doesn't make it right & truthful...
You mention Khazarian Relativism..What nonsense..If I disagree with you I have been mislead & brainwashed by the Zionists..
I cant stand them so it's very unlikely I believe a word they say.
All parties were guilty of WAR CRIMES..Some more some less...You can't just point a finger at the Serbs & say the Croats or Bosnian's etc were Angels & were only defending them selves...Or you are in danger of making your self the Patron SAINT of BULLSHIT..
There was racial hatred & propaganda & the people on all sides swallowed a lot of it...I agree with separation if that's what the people want but only if it respects all parties involved.
There was non of that evident...NATURALLY..where fear & hatred rule...
All the best wishes to all the people of that ex Country..
In the main a very giving & friendly people...
And thank you for your comments & opinions ...
the realativism remark was aimed at spreading the guilt to all parties.
the serbs started the war, and not even they could say otherwise with a dtraight face.
yes, crimes happened all over, bit let me ask you smtng.
how many serbian cities got bombed and invaded by tanks, and how many montenegran cities got attacked by the navy?
none, my friend, none.
that says it all. you can't relativise that.
bosnia and croatia were ravaged by that war. the serbs actually aimed at cultural monuments. a huge bomb fell through the dome of my city's cathedral, a UNESCO site, but luckily didn't explode.
these are facts. now, you go ahead and believe what you want, but be warned about believing in lies though.
I am more inclined to believe people that lived through all of it then some random American that visited or heard about it or the children of expatriate Serbs that happily observed from the outside, so only the words of Revolucionar and NightDay make any sense here
I think you need to hear all things from all sides & all witnesses that were directly involved from all the Nationalities & I will bet you all their story's are nearly the same..How can that be...???
I'll let you think about that one a bit...
As for wanting to believe ...well...that's where the problem lies...Belief = No Evidence Needed...You already know..A sure way to illusion & self deception & more of the same problems in the future...
I'm not taking any sides here...I'm all for accurate facts & to let the truth out...However good or bad it may be...no matter who or how much it hurts..It's the only way to reconciliation...and future peace..
you bet they are the same. I heard the stories. they are not the same. again, just go ahead and believe
Lysna, you probably have noticed that no one mentions the Macedonians and I will tell you why, because this "nation" was made up by Tito with the blessing of Stalin and people from Bulgarian ethnicity that happen to inhabit an area called Macedonia were added to Yugoslavia under the guise of Republic of Macedonia. When Macedonia announced its independence, Bulgaria was the first country to support them instead of getting involved in the war with the purpose of adding them to its territory and this is the difference between the Serbians and their neighbours. The Serbians it seems believed they had the right to rule over their neighbours and wouldn't let go whilst Bulgarians respected the wish of their brothers to have an independent state.
I think I'm arguing with the Wailing Wall of Jerusalem here that's NOT listening...and using my words against me so as not to confuse their already held beliefs..
I don't care who started the freaking war...If anyone started it & encouraged it was the USA NATO alliance ...Serbia & Croatia etc. were just playing their game.
What I'm saying is that all parties committed war CRIMES and are all as guilty as HELL of inciting hatred, propaganda & militarism...and blaming each other for it.
If you can believe emotional witnesses from all sides of the conflict they all speak of the atrocities done by the other side...
In almost the same details...!!!
Can you hear this...NO ONE WAS INNOCENT...Stop believing this or you will screw up any chances of rationality..there may be degrees of guilt but that's the end of it...according to amounts of influence & military capability..
And listen to all sides of the argument & be honest to your selves.
You will find truth, lies & propaganda in them all so sift through it carefully..
I love holidaying in Croatia & have met some beautiful locals that I cant wait to see again..And I have known other ex YU people that were all great in their own way.
I regret this discussion went in the direction of blame.
I was attempting to ascertain that Yugoslavia was not a good place. I shared some of my families experiences and if you believe that I'm telling the truth you should most definitely revise your thinking.
I agree that no side is clean, but you could say that for WW2 as well, and we still consider the nazis to be the ultimate and exclusive bad guys.
interesting how avoid commenting on facts such as the one I mentioned qbout no serbian city being touched by war at all. you dob't find that curious?
I know of the crimes committed from both sides.
But the ones from the croatian side were almost exclusively perpetrated by individual nutjobs, which was even proven in court.
on the other hand, the serbian war machine systematically and purposefully targeted civilian and cultural ares and buildings.
these are the facts, and as far as this discussion about Yu goes, it is important to know them, as they paint a picture of how it was underneath the surface long before it all went up in flames.
to summarize.... Yugoslavia was a very bad place, no better than anything we have in the west today.
As a researcher of history I find it important to dispell these myths about past benevolent regimes. there were none. there is nothing to be taken into today's world that wouldbimprove our current plight. This ship has been drowning for the last 2000 years at least.
History is almost exclusively filled with mistakes we should try to avoid.
@Angel..Sorry my friend I'm ignorant when it comes to the History & creation of Macedonia so there's no point of me saying anything about it except that I've met some beautiful people from there.
Some interesting documentaries about dissolution of Yugoslavia:
BBC The Death Of Yugoslavia: [Link]
Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War: [Link]
The Weight of Chains: [Link]
Srebrenica: A Town Betrayed: [Link]
An excerpt from Sarajevo Richochet: [Link]
It is true that Republika Srpska never existed before, but the Serbs were the majority in Bosnia for a long time, so there was no need for that: [Link]
But in the 20th century things started to change: [Link]
And then one group decided to go one way, and the other group the other way, and they got a war.
I'm sure the same thing would happen in USA, or Germany, or France, or any other country if the majority of resident ethnicity at some point became the minority. That's why they are all so much interested in the integration of the immigrants. I don't see that they are giving the immigrants equal rights with those that people had in Yugoslavia.
What those "Serbs" ie. Orthodox Christians in Western Bosnia and Croatia (ex-Military Frontier) are read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlach_(Ottoman_social_class)
"It was used for shepherds and transporters in the hinterland regardless of ethnicity and religion (though often Romance-speaking), strangers and newcomers as opposed to natives (in Istria, for Shtokavian-speakers), for hinterlanders by Dalmatian island inhabitants, for rugged villagers by the townspeople, and later an Orthodox Christian (respectively, most often for the Serbs). From the 16th century, with the Ottoman conquest and mass migrations of Slavic-speaking people, the term was primarily used for a socio-cultural and professional segment of population, rather than to an ethnicity."
I think that explains it. :-)
The term Vlach or Morlach was (and still is) initially used for Romance-speaking population, who also lived a semi-nomadic way of life as shepherds. They made most of the autochthonous population (who got Slavicized) before the arrival of the Slavs (who were in the minority) in the 5-7th century. During those migrations they mostly withdraw in the mountains, ie. passed Dinara and lived in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Most of those "Serbs" ie. Orthodox Christians in Western Bosnia and Croatia come from Herzegovina (they don't speak a Serbian dialect, but Herzegovian), not Serbia. The Orthodoxy wasn't prevalent (actually was absent until the late 16th century) in the Bosnia until the arrival of Ottoman invasion, destruction of Roman churches (due to conflict with Vatican), and replaced by Orthodox churches and Muslic mosques.
"Tihomir Đorđević points to the already known fact that the name Vlach didn't only refer to genuine Vlachs or Serbs but also to cattle breeders in general. Bogumil Hrabak emphasized that not all cattle breeders and shepherds in the Balkans were called Vlachs, an example being the Arbanasi. The medieval Serbs made a clear distinction between their own ethnic community and the Vlachs, seen in medieval documents from the 12th to 14th century which mention Vlachs separately from Serbs, and for example the prohibition of intermarriage between Serbs and Vlachs by Emperor Stefan Dušan. In the work About the Vlachs from 1806, Metropolitan Stevan Stratimirović stated that Roman Catholics from Croatia and Slavonia scornfully used the name Vlach for "the Slovenians (Slavs) and Serbs, who are of our, Eastern confession (Orthodoxy)", and that "the Turks in Bosnia and Serbia also call every Bosnian or Serbian Christian a Vlach" (Đorđević, 1984). The immigrants, irrelevant of religion and modern South Slavic nationality which didn't exist until the 19th century, who took refuge in the Military Frontier and inland of coastal cities, were called "Vlachs" or "Morlachs".
The Catholic Vlachs were integrated into the Croatian nationality. Orthodox Vlach groups whose migrations were not accompanied by an ecclesiastical infrastructure were Catholicised and assimilated. The Serbian ethnic identity was consolidated among the Orthodox Vlachs after the establishment of the Serbian Orthodox eparchies of Zrinopolje and Lika-Krbava in 1695, which would be later unified into the Eparchy of upper Karlovac."
They are basically Serbs from the 1695 in Croatia (in the eyes of Serbian Orthodox church), as they declared only later in the 19th century for Serbian, and not Croatian national identity. The whole case of conversion of Vlachs ie. Slavic-speaking population who lived semi-nomadic lifestyle, into Croats and Serbs was used for social and political gain. Somehow, during the historical events the Serbian Orthodox church made a huge favor to the future Serbian politics - the Pan-Serbism and Greater Serbia.
Well, even if that is all true, and if those Vlachs of Croatia were also Catholicised and assimilated into Croatian population, then we can also talk about future Croatian politics - the Pan-Croatianism and Greater Croatia. Right?
Not to mention elimination of everybody who were not Catholicised and assimilated.
Indeed, for example the "Catholic Vlachs/Slavs" in Herzegovina became Croats, and thus some tried to push the border of the Greater Croatia up to the Drina river. There's no doubt that some "genuine" Croats and Serbs migrated there from the Slavic arrival, or after wars like when Serbs fled due to the Bulgars invasion, and so on, but it was mostly the high class who carried this "political/ethnic" identity.
The mass of Slavic-speaking people was without ethnic/national identity although lived in political medieval Croatia and Serbia, also Bosnia. To control that mass of people (not of those Croats and Serbs who lived near bigger settlements and churches, where was all the neccesary infrastrucutre to not "forget" their identity) was pivotal for political and strategical geographical gain.
The core of the hatred or misunderstanding between the Croats and Serbs relations, due to not so well documented historical sources, originate during the time of the Ottoman invasion. It is very complex, it is not so simple as some imagine, with outside and inside politics, and religion as a tool, in the first plan.
"To control that mass of people (not of those Croats and Serbs who lived near bigger settlements and churches, where was all the neccesary infrastrucutre to not "forget" their identity) was pivotal for political and strategical geographical gain."
Yes. Maybe that's why Yugoslavia collapsed. They didn't have churches to remind them of their identity. And maybe that's why Americans have so many churches across their country. Because they knew that they cannot create a new nation of Americans without churches.
Well, if you go far enough you will discover that all nations on this planet are artificial in some way. French and German people are created the same way that Croatians and Serbians are created.
So in the end there was not much difference between Yugoslavs and all the others. Except for the lack of churches, of course. ;-)
@Revolucionar...It's not that I'm avoiding the subject of Serbia not being bombed it's that it's not true..
For 11 weeks the USA & NATO bombed most of the cities & of Serbia...
The damage to the Economy & Infrastructure was estimated over 100 billion then.
Do some reading on it...plenty on google.
Also watch.. The Weight of Chains..somewhat biased but very good..
There's a link to it 2 comments above me from Persej.
The only reason that non of the others bombed Serbia is that they did NOT have the means to...The so called YU Army did not side with the break up...but given the means & ability to bomb I'm certain they would have..
Yes there was imbalance of power that needed sorting out..
Non of the other States or Military were going to side with Croatia because of its past links with the Nazi's unfortunately.
No I don't just consider just the Nazi's the bad guys..Can't just blame Hitler..Took a lot of people to co-operate to start WW2.
Have you watched the full documentary of..HELLSTORM..youtube it..
Also..Adolph Hitler The Greatest Story Never Told...
Just to get a more balanced view..
It was the way of the times back then ..kill or be killed...either you have the power or others lorded over you...
Things never change much really do they.
Humans can be horrible Evil creatures so I don't trust anyone.
YU was good & bad bad would have changed with the times I'm sure as compared to all other Communist nations it really was very liberal...And there seemed to be plenty for most...
I was in YU in 76-78 and the place was active, economically thriving, locals filled the restaurants & caffee's..
Nothing like that now...no jobs & if got one you cant make ends meet...locals cant afford to eat out...they sit in caffees sometimes for hours on one coffee...or 1 or 2 drinks...because can't afford more.
I found the comparison of the then & now very sad...
But I nave no nostalgic romantic notions of YU..let's learn & move on
Yes off course there was probs in YU...others have gone through that & got over it & developed..
I don't want to paint a bleak picture of the current times as it's an economical struggle everywhere now.
I love Croatia & Croatians & I've met some lovely people from all the other ex republics too.
Matter of fact is my genetic linage is Croatian but non the less I like truth & facts so we can grow as humans & not brainwashed biased zombies..
Yes history is filled with mistakes that we are NOT avoiding unfortunately.
dude. the bombing of serbia had nothing to do with the Yu war.
the stuff you wrote in this comment clearly states that you have a very poor understanding of the subject matter. you clearly don't even know which armies fought during the war.
the yu army was the serbian army at that point.
NO..I guess you're right...They bombed Serbia because their only interest was to protect the human rights & the huge Economy of Kosovo..
You know humanitarian reasons..
Jesus who believes the Zionist propaganda...
Grow Up..!!!
The Armies that fought in that war were as bad as each other..Racist..Fascist....Supremacists and used fear & stupid religions to drive all that home...I don't need to offend people by naming Armies.
The more powerful wanted more & had more power...thus more damage..It's wrong but What's new here..
Don't assume what I don't know from my omissions... There's only so much one can write here. I'm not doing a freaking book on the subject...
You look & sound like you're ready to do it all again though..Too biased dude...and you are reading into it only what you want to see & hear...Happy Dreams..
Remember it takes 2 to Tango...Now think of it as a Tango Orgy...There certainly was no action on behalf of any love & respect of each other.
And there still isn't while all the people perpetuate their own myths..
dude. the yu war ended in 1995. the bombing you talk about took place in 1999.
you've just shown you know nothing about this subject. I hope you go read up after this.
how do these two separate wars have anything to do with each other in your mind?
I hope it's just ignorance on your part, as that can be remedied.
I implore you, go educate yourself about this as you seem genuinely interested on the subject.
I hope this came through to you.
please read up on it.
You're right..I don't know enough details about the subject but I do know enough to see the Evil from all sides involved in the conflict.
It was a race.for Power & Land Grab War...and a Racial war..
I don't need to be a Historian to see that.
As a matter of fact what the Serbs tried to achieve in Croatia by declaring an independent Republic..we Croats tried to do the same in Bosnia..as did the Serbs..Take the Land by FORCE because we have an Ethic Group living there..
In fact the so called Leaders of Cro. & Serb.. I think in 1992, held a secret meeting to achieve just such a Land Grab & just leave a small portion for the Muslims...With full agreement..Except for the Bosnian's off course..
If this isn't GUILT by association...and a criminal ACT...What is it...The fact remains that big fish eat little fish & when the little fish get bigger they in turn want to other eat little fish..
Initially it was a bad act/choice of polices on behalf of the Serbian Government & the Serb minorities in Cro. but it got so badly out of hand that all side are guilty of crimes...unless you want to sweep it under the carpet..
I just kept arguing with you because I hate Self Righteous ignorance that I have seen from all the people from the former YU & you can't say that I didn't bring up some debatable points worth thinking about..Which was my aim..
The aim of the later bombing of Serbia was to break the Spine & Economy of that Country...possibly to stop the war escalating over the borders & many other things that were solely in the interest of USA & NATO...
I will do some more reading & educating on the subject, thanks for the advice, but it will be from all sides of the conflict.
No one party was innocent...And that's the point I was making and wanted you to see..
We need to learn from our mistakes & move on..But as I said in another comment..Learning is not something we as Humans do easily..It's always more of the same..
Meantime I'm looking forward to a great couple of months holiday on the beautiful Adriatic (Jadran) coast in Croatia very soon..and enjoying the culture & the people & their hospitality & friendliness..
I love this little part of our amazing Planet.
You are doing fine lysna - seems you are better informed then those at the source of happenings. But this is no surprise- during the Yugoslav civil war psychological warfare and brain washing of the masses was very successful.
It is obvious you don't even know the chronology of the war, much less any details that would qualify you to pass any kind of reasonable judgment.
Again there was a war from 91.-95. in Croatia and Bosnia.
The bombing of 99. had nothing to do with it whatsoever.
Besides, the Yugoslavia of 99. was Yu only in name. Basically it was Serbia+Montenegro.
Nobody is arguing that nato had nothing to do with any of this.
It was all in their agenda, but to say that they caused the break up and the war is giving them too much credit.
Point is, Yugoslavia was bound to fall apart, as Serbian imperialism was unrelenting at the time.
Everyone wanted out, but they wouldn't let 'em, just like Ukraine doesn't let Donbass out.
All of us who live in these parts know who the aggressors were, and no amount of apologetism and relativism, spreading guilt just for the sake of balance and making us all the same, will not change that fact.
You may believe what you want, but I, on the other hand, know what happened.
I had a full on invasion come down on my city, bombing, targeting civilians, seconds to catastrophe.
No Serbian town had to endure this in the 91.-95. war.
You know why? Because no one had any interest in their territory, but they had interest in everything that wasn't theirs.
I would just like to see that people stop acting educated on things they obviously( to someone who knows) have no idea what they're on about.
BTW, I'm not Ustasha or anything. I deplore those kinds of classifications.
The rational destruction of Yugoslavia by Parenti
Head Fu*k Soup
I rest my case...I'm over it..All I know it was a deliberate destruction of Yu and that NO ONE WAS INNOCENT in this war of Racist propaganda & fear mongering...Add some God is on our side in the mix & there you have it..
A deadly brew...A head FU*K soup where everyone's at the table to eat & devour every last morsel.
The sooner we all face the truth the better our lives will get..World Wide..
As for usa & nato..they dont deserve to be written in capital letters, nato needs to be destroyed & that will remove the smoke screen from the usa's ability to wage war & destruction without being exposed.
Peace & Love to ALL..
And no I'm not a Hippy..
Yugoslav Wars
The Yugoslav Wars were ethnic conflicts fought from 1991 to 2001 inside the territory of the former Yugoslavia.
The wars are generally considered to be a series of separate but related military conflicts which occurred in, and affected, most of the former Yugoslav republics:
War in Slovenia (1991)
Croatian War of Independence (1991–1995)
Bosnian War (1992–1995)
Kosovo War (1998–1999), including the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia
Insurgency in the Preševo Valley (1999–2001)
Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia (2001)
But some Croatians still think that it was all about them.
Just give up :)
you cant talk with ustashis, chetniks, or any other nationalists whatever. They just drain you and find another victim. No point in try to explain them anything, they don't have the apparatus to understand. If they could understand, they wouldn't be the way they are . . . .
Yes, but you can still learn a lot what one side is thinking about the other side. :-)
Like this for example: [Link]
It's really amazing how much hatred there is in some Croatians against Serbs. They even hate themselves for speaking Serbo-Croatian!
I personally thing that it is great that we can understand each other, but they actually hate this! Go figure.
pechorin · 2016-03-02T04:13:40Z
Intelligence vs anti-intellectualis
In the context history and American imperialism only a fool believes that the US was not instrumental in the destruction of Yugoslavia. I recall that I was on the beach in Crna Gora with my monolingual Russian girlfriend 6 mos after the US bombing of Serbia and nearby were some 5 or 6 americans...I was surprised and asked them what they were doing . They replied that they were US rock musicians paid by the US Dept of State to spread american "culture". And with the intervention of US spies, NGO the US was successful in breaking Crna Gora and Kosovo off from Serbia. The American hypocrisy regarding Crimea simply justifies Stalin's harsh popularization of the term, "american exceptionalism".
jovichmk · 2016-03-02T08:46:52Z
Yugoslavia in its best times was 4th largest military force in Europe. With that power NATO/US plans will never work. So , the first step was to destroy it. The best way was to do it from inside at the beginning and they have done it. Later you can see how they destroyed the remaining countries that arrived from Yugoslavia.. Now this so called states are not states at all. Just a puppets for NATO/ US playing.
This countries are lead by Psychopathic puppets now. All of this countries now urge to be part of NATO. Its so bizarre , its so sick that i want to leave this place once for ever.
lilies · 2016-03-02T16:28:59Z
Exquisit Yugoslavian food products
I still remember the absolutely amazing Yugoslavian canned meat. Taken out of the can it looked like a thick, heavy cylinder of meat, which my mother sliced up and made breaded fried meat like on this picture:
Served with french fries it was heavenly!! Then suddenly we could buy it no more, guess why?
**__ Because the excellent canned meat factory in Yugoslavia was hastily converted to manufacture bullets!! __**
Everyone to his own I remember excellent pens, pencils and other drawing tools from TOZ (Tvornica Olovaka Zagreb - Pencil factory in Zagreb). That was indestructible, what ever you do to them, those pens lasted for years and years. I didn't found other of that quality nowadays, even 'famous' brands like 'Staedtler, Rotring, Micro' and similar . . .
That's fantastic...talking about food..pencils, pens..good firms..not freaking killing & wars...I must say I'm in Croatia every year now & the quality of local food is just awesome...I can't get enough..but yes the the old cake shops are in the main gone so aren't as good now...the cheap high quality restaurants are gone...the restaurant food is still amazing but they're just after the tourist money now so locals can't afford to eat out...the quality of the canneries has gone down but the canned gulash is still great as is the pickled vegetables & jams...the locals still do great real smoked meats...prsut..rebro...but getting expensive...and the cheeses...yummo...actually I think Pashki Sir (cheese) just won the World Cheese of the year award...beautiful but not cheap...and the wines...wow...not to forget the amazing Scenery & atmosphere...unforgetable..if you havent been there yet get your ass there asap...and in the main the locals are friendly & very helpful..'
HAHA..I'm starting to sound like a Tourist Agent ..sorry...
"if you havent been there yet get your ass there asap...and in the main the locals are friendly & very helpful..'
HAHA..I'm starting to sound like a Tourist Agent ..sorry..."
I'm sure Avala would love to visit beautiful Croatian coastline, but after the dissolution of Yugoslavia Croatia became too expensive for Serbia. And those in Serbia who have money, well, they prefer Greece, for safety reasons.
I've seen plenty of Serbs Bosnians Slovenes in Croatia on the beaches with no animosity at all.
All happy there.
No one bothered anyone.
I don't advise a Soccer/Football game though...Not friendly there...
Yes Greece is currently cheaper but I wouldn't call it safer...Not a very happy Country at the moment with the Political/Economic instability & so called refugees...
Well, whatever the reason, the fact is that most Serbs now go to Greece. There was 778,765 tourist from Serbia in Greece in 2013, and only 90,000 in Croatia. And most of them probably have some relatives in Croatia.
Well, it is a bit pricey nowadays But there are always available excellent wines from Istra and Dubrovnik region. I got hooked on them on one wine festival in Belgrade few years ago. Although I'm still convinced that they add sea salt in it! No way having that taste just from wine! (kidding, I know those wine are real, but they really are exquisite)
It's a example of the same bias & self rigteousness I was taking about in earlier responses..Works both ways..
Blame shifting prejudice..!!!
For example...Albania's even cheaper & closer than Greece.
So why not go there...
It's fairly obvious.
Greeks are Orthodox too so that helps..
It's all nonsense..Tribal & Religious affiliations..narrow brainwashed indoctrinated minds everywhere.
Ahhhhh...Humans...A failed example of Evolution..
I keep saying its time to give cockroaches a go at it..
If we manage to destroy our selves they couldn't do much worse than humans did.
Yozilla · 2016-03-03T23:27:59Z
Interesting study case this EX YU . It was artificially created by West (?) after WW1 like many other "nations". Before WW2 Yugoslavian government signed a pact with Hiter and it was overthrown so Adolf ordered invasion and occupied it together with Italians. Some "croatian" neoconservative jingoists than created a "independent state of Croatia" - Nazis' puppet regime but without Adriatic coast which got under fascist Italy who started to go after local Dalmatian "Croats"... So dalmatinians joined Tito' partisans to fight all kind of invaders including "croatian" collaborators Ustashe and royal Chetniks and some others...
After the war Tito and partisans pursued a suppresion of ALL "religions": catholic aka Croat, orthodox aka Serbian, muslim aka Bosnian cause they realized from where the devil comes (sorry for the pun)... but peoples in EX-YU were to stubborn to give up there false identities propagated by idiots/priesthood - there holy men... Few there in YU embraced life out of false faith boxes, and were a kind of freemen. Also they were free (but forcefully) of greed and after all Yugoslavia was a bigger state than nowadays banana republics here. Some kind of socialistic mirage. Below the surface it was crony socialist wonder-land which gave "higher education (like some commenters pointed out) to lots of psychopaths who are successful in politics and business today. Devil's spawn...
Yugoslavia was just a spacier pen...
Maybe to be be really free, one/all should ditch "there" history - religion - nationality - state - race - sex - and even humanity. Maybe one will never be independent/free while living any of those convicts. Almost like freedom is so inhuman!
Short video
Here is a 3 minute video clip about Yugoslav wars: [Link]
Good for those who don't want to study the entire history of Balkans. :-)
Harks · 2016-03-08T23:09:05Z


text:
Posts Tagged 'Attack the Block'
Bad Vs Worse
Posted in Film Reviews, tagged 2011, action, alien invasion, Attack the Block, drama, Edgar Wright, Joe Cornish, John Boyega, Nick Frost, SF on May 13, 2011| Leave a Comment »
Okay, we may as well get this out of the way before we go any further: most people's point of reference for Joe Cornish's Attack the Block is going to be Shaun of the Dead. It's not as if the film even shies away from this much: 'from the producers of…' features prominently on the poster, Edgar Wright is involved, Nick Frost has a hefty cameo role and the film is, essentially, a similar kind of stylistic mash-up. But, and I'm being up front about this, if you go in expecting a film as deft and witty and smart as Shaun then you won't be doing yourself, or Attack the Block, any favours, because where the 2004 movie felt like a brilliant discovery, this is more some sort of bizarre oddity.
The film opens with Sam (Jodie Whittaker), a young nurse, walking home one Bonfire Night. She lives in a tower block on a desolate London council estate and soon finds herself facing a fairly grim scenario as she is surrounded and mugged at knifepoint by a gang of youths. Then things become somewhat less predictable and rather more surprising as a ball of fire falls from the sky and disgorges a slavering, clawed, ferocious creature.
Sam runs and in a slightly queasy narrative lurch the gang of muggers become the protagonists, as they kill the thing and carry away its remains as a trophy. But it soon becomes apparent that the fireball was only the first of many, and more – containing considerably more dangerous luminously-toothed gorilla-wolves – are landing all over the neighbourhood. The gang aren't about to let any bunch of extraterrestrial monsters muscle in on their turf and quickly tool themselves up as the aliens prepare to attack the block they live in…
Quite by chance I caught a showing of this movie with subtitles, and in retrospect this may have been a good thing as nearly all the characters are a generation younger than me and speak in a street patois I am not particularly fluent in. I have no way of being sure, but it certainly seemed to me that the movie was doing a good job of giving an authentic impression of the dead-end culture the main characters have grown up within. Having said that, this is clearly the work of someone quite well-versed in the SF genre – the gang reside in Wyndham Tower, overlooking Ballard Street (amongst others), and while the movie doesn't directly reference either writer (except perhaps Ballard's High Rise, and then only tangentially) it was a nice reference.
But most importantly, Joe Cornish definitely seems to have chops as a film director. I was startled, years ago, to hear he and Edgar Wright had been retained to write a script for Marvel Studios, but on the strength of this they should snap him up as a solo act – he has a sure eye for the kind of cinematic flourish that really makes Attack the Block look like it belongs on the big screen. Rather in the way that Richard Ayoade seems to have assimilated the sensibility of American indie and produced his own version of it, so Cornish has done the same with a more mainstream, action-oriented style.
Given Cornish's background as a performer – not to mention the presence in this film of Nick Frost, who demonstrates his usual monumental ability to steal scenes – you might expect this to be a rather broader comedy than it is. There are a few laughs along the way, to be sure, but this is really a…
Uh, well, I may have to get back to you on that one, because… well, if this movie is primarily intended as an action movie, it has a serious problem practically from the first scene. This is because most of the main characters are initially introduced as violent muggers and as a result almost impossible to sympathise with or root for (for me, anyway). It may be the idea that as time goes by we're intended to forget how we first met the gang, or that the circumstances of the alien incursion are sufficiently serious to justify our overlooking the fact they're vicious thugs – but the film never quite pulls this trick off.
And I get the impression Cornish is aware of this and it's something he's done deliberately, almost as a challenge to the audience. It would, after all, be easy enough to have started the film differently, omitted the mugging, and avoided this whole problem. If it's not deliberate then it's a major mis-step on his part.
I suspect it was a calculated move, as when it's not being a rather 2000AD-ish action movie Attack the Block seems to want to say serious things about gang culture and wasted young lives in British inner-cities. But exactly what these things are I couldn't quite make out, beyond a few very obvious points hammered home without a great deal of subtlety – 'Actions have consequences,' someone says at one point, rather labouring the issue.
When it comes to youth gang members – 'hoodies', as we rather charmingly used to refer to them – most films either mindlessly glamourise them, reflexively demonise them, or treat them much more thoughtfully as damaged, broken people, the product of their environment. At various points Attack the Block does all three, which is a neat trick. Whether it serves the story or not is another matter.
John Boyega does a bang-up job of portraying Moses, leader of the gang, and does succeed in giving him depth as a character (some of the other young performers are ever so slightly am-dram). But you don't go to a knockabout action movie about aliens to get soul-searching and social comment, just as you don't go to see a drama about the awful lives of dead-end kids on council estates looking for action sequences with CGI nasties (if there's a social metaphor involved in the alien incursion storyline, I can't discern what it is). Cornish has succeeded in fusing together two genres with absolutely nothing in common in terms of tone or audience expectations.
Once again, it's a neat trick, but I'm not sure who exactly is going to find this movie a completely satisfying experience. It's an extremely well-made and well-directed film, and a major calling card for Joe Cornish, but to completely enjoy it I think you would have to identify with the central characters to a degree of which I'm simply not capable: and while that's partly a simple issue of fact, it's also a result of the script. I'm loath to describe any film as being too clever for its own good, but Attack the Block may be just that.

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl


Journey through Russia and Mongolia at the heart of winter.
Trains run all year round on the trans-Siberian railway; the Russians are not fazed by cold; snow is common and they are ready for it even before the coming of the winter season (November-March). Besides in Moscow, St Petersburg, Ekaterinburg and Irkutsk everyone looks fabulous in furs and rosy cheeks!
Hotels and trains are extremely well heated and Russian cuisine is designed to warm you up. And there is no need to get stuck indoors. There is dog sledding, ice fishing, sleigh rides and cross-country skiing to keep you entertained. For us travel during this period is magical.


V Festival made it's American debut this Saturday (September 23) with headlining slots from The Killers and Red Hot Chilli Peppers.
The event, which has run in the UK for ten years, was staged in Baltimore at the Pimlico Race Course.
Other bands performing at the event included Kasabian, Wolfmother, The Raconteurs, Gnarls Barkley, Clap Your Hands Say Yeah, Scissor Sisters, The Flaming Lips and The Who.