By J. Peter Nixon author and contributor to Patheos.com  Does the Catholic Church have a future? Given the events of the last few months, the question is not impertinent. As Ross Douthat noted in a recent essay in the Atlantic, this was the year when the clerical sexual abuse crisis truly became global, reaching even into the Vatican itself. Douthat observed that "for millions in Europe and America, Catholicism is probably permanently associated with sexual scandal, rather than the gospel of Jesus Christ."  The abuse crisis was a hurricane battering a structure whose foundation had been eroding for years. The decline of sacramental practice in Europe is so obvious as to require no further comment. But smug Americans who think "it can't happen here" should look at the numbers. Rates of mass attendance and sacramental marriage among Catholics in their 20s suggest that Catholics in the West will share a common future.  Most of the solutions offered are unlikely to have much of an impact. The liberal path of greater rapprochement between Church and culture has not proven successful for those denominations that have tried it. But an embittered and joyless defense of orthodoxy -- the kind on display in far too many quarters of the Catholic internet -- repels far more people than it attracts. The problem goes deeper than difficult doctrines or antiquated structures, problematic though these may sometimes be. Our children and grandchildren are abandoning the faith because they perceive -- rightly -- that its demands are at fundamental variance with the lives we have prepared them to lead. We have raised them to seek lives characterized by material comfort, sexual fulfillment, and freedom from any obligations that they have not personally chosen. Should it surprise us that they fail to take seriously our claims to follow one who embraced poverty, chastity, and obedience to the will of God?  A revival of the Church in our time will require believers who are willing to take risks on behalf of the Gospel. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Cardinal Law, rather than retiring to his sinecure in Rome, had instead made a penitential journey to Haiti and lived out his days in a hospital cleaning toilets and picking maggots from the wounds of street people. Some might have seen such a penance as inadequate to the offense, but it could not have been dismissed as an empty gesture. To renounce everything he had achieved for the sake of the Gospel would have been an act worthy of a follower of Jesus Christ.  The future of the Church is not in the hands of its leaders, whose exhortations seem increasingly to fall on deaf ears. It is in the hands of ordinary men and women who are willing to live lives that make no sense unless Jesus Christ is who we believe Him to be. In the end, it is only the saints who can save us.  J. Peter Nixon is an award-winning Catholic writer whose work has appeared in America, Commonweal, U.S. Catholic, and elsewhere. He lives in Northern California.  This essay is part of a series on the Future of Catholicism at Patheos.com.  By David Charles | July 23, 2010; 12:02 PM ET Share This: Technorati | Del.icio.us | Digg | Facebook Previous: Technology and Observance: Jews of the Future |  "And what the hell does Xian mean?  POSTED BY: MIKEM5 | JULY 24, 2010 8:45 PM" XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  "X" as in Xian is the Greek signifier for 'Christ,' hence "CHRISTian" (see also "Xmas").  I don't believe that the ROMAN Catholic (there is another "schismatic" Catholic church, the Eastern Orthodox) Church has given up its powers of prognostication; it has just been wrong so often since its early, "traditional" phase that it has shut up about it, leaving lunatic Biblical interpretation to the boobs of contemporary "Evangelicalism"; would they would apply that principle to the rest of RC "dogma."  Since the RCC believes in the remnant (a different, less (?) prideful version of "the chosen people"), a small, select--perhaps even "elite"--band of the saved, those of us amused/bemused by their antics might just let them pass into oblivion ("the Pearly Gates"?). One certainly hopes the organization has no future influence even if it continues to exist as a shell of the self-anointed.  Posted by: mini2 | July 25, 2010 7:58 AM  Unfortunately a 2000 year old legacy is being badly fumbled by the US hierarchy who seem unable to translate the teachings of Christ to a modern era. Rather they shout all the louder into the wind, making the church an unwitting pawn in cultural wars.  Posted by: jack824 | July 25, 2010 6:29 AM  "Our children and grandchildren are abandoning the faith because they perceive -- rightly -- that its demands are at fundamental variance with the lives we have prepared them to lead."  What do you mean we, kemosabe?  The fact that lukewarm Catholics raise secular children is not exactly breaking news. People who can't be bothered to fast six Fridays a year aren't cut out for perpetuating culture beyond passive consumption generally, never mind passing anything to do with sacrifice on to a new generation.  The other side of the coin is that secular Americans are taking themselves out of the gene pool by failing to reproduce at even replacement levels, leaving the future to those who choose to populate it.  Posted by: n_observer | July 25, 2010 1:30 AM  It's really too bad the Catholic Church got itself into the mess it's in. Right about now a rabid Catholic Church would be useful in counteracting the creeping islamization of the West. Who can better fight religious fanatics than other fanatics? The smackdown of the century: Allah v. God and their sidekicks, Jesus v. Mohammed (in strict alphabetic order.) Should be something to watch.  Posted by: RichardHode | July 25, 2010 1:07 AM  There are no organized or recognized religions that operate solely to save souls. They are all businesses that exist to gain wealth and power. Just like governments, they use their wealth and power to keep themselves that way. I was raised in the Catholic church and raised all of my children that way. But being a wise parent I always and still do enlighten my children of the evils of religion. Catholism has always been deeply evil and especially so in the present day about the child rapists that they have worked so hard to hide and pretended to rehabilitate. I no longer go into their cathedrals because those edifices only serve to demonstrate the tithings of the faithful are being used frivilously. Did Christ tell them to built these magnificent structures and then expect the faithful to pay for their upkeep? Wouldn't He have wanted them to use that money to serve His children ? We do not need to attend church to live the lives Christ told us to. I know tons of people who live their lives with so much altruism and mercy for those in need and I also know how little our churches do for us outside their doors. Let the religious organizations die and take their greed with them for they no longer serve God Almighty, just the golden coins of wealth. We can read and understand and we have the capacity to do as Christ wants us to do. We don't need a bunch of old men guilty of lying and protecting evil men telling us we are sinful.  Posted by: papafritz571 | July 25, 2010 12:46 AM  The Catholic Church is in the midst of a perfect storm, though not the first in its history. At the time of the Reformation I don't know of a single contemporary commentator who would have said "Popes, Bishops, Priests and Monks tend to be exemplars of morality." Quite the contrary.  The current crisis has the Church afoul of feminists (on abortion) and gay rights activists (on any number of fronts), and it's hard to think of a more damning thing that could be said of it, than what can be said of it.  It will survive, as an embodiment of that form of Christian faith which trusts in God's shepherding of a community rather than God's once and for all revelation by means of a text.  Posted by: douglaslbarber | July 24, 2010 11:11 PM  Probably. There are still Wiccans, right? OTOH the Greek, Norse and Latin gods are all gone, so maybe ol' Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah will follow.  Posted by: raschumacher | July 24, 2010 10:52 PM  The church will survive but it's survival will not be honorable. The church is full of pedophiles(what these priests would be called if not in the church). This could have been avoided if they'd been allowed to marry, or if the church had taken an aggressive attempt to clean up their own house. Instead they covered it up and treated it as something okay for priests to do. The problem is still ongoing. This stain will remain forever. The Pope can no longer speak for God. The pope is unworthy and God has turned his back.  Posted by: abboggs | July 24, 2010 10:36 PM  "We have raised them to seek lives characterized by material comfort, sexual fulfillment, and freedom from any obligations that they have not personally chosen." Not all of us have raised our children to be selfish.  Of course, when this forum is moderated by Sally Quinn, who with her husband Ben Bradlee "forgot" about his granddaughter's wedding and scheduled her son's wedding for the same day, but then actually rejoiced about the fact that there were no overlapping guests because the families all hated each other so much that she and Ben had been uninvited to the granddaughter's wedding, it would be easy to assume that selfishness and narcissism are the dominant characteristics of those who hold weddings in churches (Washington National Cathedral, in the case of Sally and her son). It is not, however, true of most people of faith, including our young people. The average age of March for Life participants gets younger every year.  Posted by: Yankeesfan1 | July 24, 2010 10:19 PM  "Does the Catholic Church have a future?" - the only people asking that question have already answered it in the negative. The way things are going, Western Civilization will be gone before the Catholic Church.  Posted by: alientech | July 24, 2010 9:45 PM  "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."  The Catholic Church has survived the Roman Empire, the Dark Ages, the Inquisition and Communism and it will survive the blight killing many of its branches now.  Corrupt, ailing American society should be more concerned with whether it's going to survive the next fifty years or not.  Posted by: politbureau | July 24, 2010 9:33 PM  The catholic church has the same future as the church of zeus. It is dying now, withering away like all the other ancient, primitive, barbaric religions which preceded it.  As soon as Islam dies the same way .. .why, the world will be a much better place.  Posted by: jontomus | July 24, 2010 9:19 PM  Mike: frantaylor had no intention of responding to my post. She needed something to mock and so decided that I couldn't tell the difference between Rome and Aachen. She also decided to ignore fact and mock the peter's Pence collection, never a big thing in the Church but a fair request, all things considered. Like Renshaw she can't deal with the post so she invents her own and attacks that. Like I Say, I usually don't respond to ignorance.  By the way, its he. Earl Moreo, N6FXB  Posted by: ceflynline | July 24, 2010 9:07 PM  Oh! by the way, the HRE lasted from Charlemagne to Bismark, something of a millenium and a quarter.  Not to shabby a life span after all.  Posted by: ceflynline | July 24, 2010 8:59 PM  I gotta say I learned some great new jokes today, courtesy of ceflynline: 1. That the Holy Roman Empire fell because its government failed to be Catholic enough. 2. That the Holy Roman Empire "kept the peace", despite the Crusades where entire civilizations were obliterated because they failed to be Catholic enough. 3. Oh and this is the best one: "The Church's wealth is used, not for the pleasure or benefit of its administrators, but for the spread of Jesus teachings" This is ABSOLUTELY a hoot because my Catholic Priest had NO qualms about asking his poor destitute flock to donate money to be sent back to the Vatican in order to pay for "administrative costs". Posted by: frantaylor "  Strange that you should ascribe that idiocy to me, as I didn't mention the Holy Roman Empire once.  In fact I gave the time of the (Western) Roman Empire as about 400 years, thus ending it two hundred years before Charlemagne and the start of the Holy Roman Empire.  So, dear frantaylor, your initial reading being so poor, it is obvious that you learned NOTHING from me.  Sad, but I can't get everyone to pay attention.  Posted by: ceflynline | July 24, 2010 8:56 PM  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 8:55 PM  The Catholic Church will remain with us for some time, but the writing is on the wall regarding its eventual extinction. Its growth in the current era springs entirely from undeveloped countries where the uneducated, desperate and gullible mostly reside. Eventually even they will experience rising living standards and higher educational levels. Religious devotion/intensity is directly proportional to high ignorance and close-mindedness. The day will come when humanity outgrows its intellectual infancy and faces the universe without a pacifier.  Posted by: bpai_99 | July 24, 2010 8:52 PM  You're using the Acts of the Apostles as your source? The book written by the same author as the Gospel of Luke? That Gospel says Jesus was born when Herod was King of Judea, when Augustus was emperor of Rome and Quirinius was governor of Syria. Yet Herod was long dead before Quirinius went to Syria. He got that wrong, didn't he. And Luke says that the turning of the money-changers tables happened the week he was killed but John says it happened nearly a year before he was killed. Who is wrong?  And he says that Jesus died during Passover, and that he ate the Passover meal with the disciples. John says there was no Passover meal, and that he died on the Day of Preparation. So who is wrong dear?  And which gospel do you accept and which do you reject regarding the crucifixion sine they don't agree? You say Mary listened to her son as he spoke to her on the cross? I wonder why Matt, Mark and Luke never mention that conversation?  I guess you just gloss over these inconsistencies and errors. You'll say that you don't think of the Bible in literal fashion until it comes to ordaining women, when you claim that Jesus only ordained men. They were all jewish, too, but that doesn't seem to be a requirement for ordination today, does it?  You're just like the fundamentalist and born-agains. You can't think for yourself.  You say tradition has it that Peter was crucified upside down. Yet you ignore the tradition of the Church ordering millions of deaths. You pick and choose all you want, dear. Your Church is becoming more irrelevant with each and every passing day.  Posted by: Renshaw | July 24, 2010 8:49 PM  You gotto be a little more open-minded. I thing she meant:  2. That the Holy Roman Empire "kept the peace", despite the Crusades where entire civilizations were obliterated because they failed to be Catholic enough.  Here that they kept the peace by uniting Eruope against northern invaders, internal wars, and Muslim raids into Spain.  3. Oh and this is the best one: "The Church's wealth is used, not for the pleasure or benefit of its administrators, but for the spread of Jesus teachings" This is ABSOLUTELY a hoot because my Catholic Priest had NO qualms about asking his poor destitute flock to donate money to be sent back to the Vatican in order to pay for "administrative costs".  Here...come on. One stupid fundraiser doesn't really mean every single dollar donated goes to admin/lawsuits. The reason St. Peters (or any church) is beautiful is that it is meant to raise our minds to God.  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 8:49 PM  POSTED BY: MINI2 I think we might start with St Paul's writings to discover that "the end of days" is not a 19th-century evangelical Xian creation; also, look to St John's "Book of Revelations." In those days, they WERE the "evangelicals."  I thought you were talking about the modern day church. These days the Catholic church teaches that man cannot know the exact time. And what the hell does Xian mean?  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 8:45 PM  The institution has always been someone's bete noire. Fred Barbarossa posed an infinitely greater threat; having survived that gentleman, the Church can rest assured of some sort of a future after the dust settles on this child abuse scandal.  Posted by: Martial | July 24, 2010 8:44 PM  Agreed, observation and science will answer the question. But, at this point at least, reason (and open-mindeness) would have to allow the possibility that a "creator" is the origin.  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 8:42 PM  If the Catholic Church had no future, its critics would have no more interest in it than they have in the Flat Earth Society.  Posted by: douglaslbarber | July 24, 2010 8:35 PM  I gotta say I learned some great new jokes today, courtesy of ceflynline:  1. That the Holy Roman Empire fell because its government failed to be Catholic enough.  2. That the Holy Roman Empire "kept the peace", despite the Crusades where entire civilizations were obliterated because they failed to be Catholic enough.  3. Oh and this is the best one: "The Church's wealth is used, not for the pleasure or benefit of its administrators, but for the spread of Jesus teachings" This is ABSOLUTELY a hoot because my Catholic Priest had NO qualms about asking his poor destitute flock to donate money to be sent back to the Vatican in order to pay for "administrative costs".  Posted by: frantaylor | July 24, 2010 8:05 PM  The problem is not just with the child sex abuse scandal and the associated denial. And it is not just with their utterly medieval attitude toward women and people who do not have heterosexual sexual feelings.  The problem is that the Catholic Church has been utterly wrong on virtually every major question facing humankind for many centuries now. Evolution versus Creationism, the basic makeup of the solar system, torture... you name it. Every time there has been a Big Question, this institution with its supposed Hotline to the Source of Divine Intelligence, has gotten it wrong. They've eventually taken their cues from science and secular society, getting dragged along like clueless children. These latest two failures of the church are just the last in a long line of them.  Would you keep bringing your car to a mechanic that had exhibited no knowledge of automobiles, time and again? If so, are you sane?  Posted by: B2O2 | July 24, 2010 8:02 PM  "More utter nonsense by Renshaw "  Since you haven't a clue what you are writing about, I ought to apply my principle of ignoring ignorant posters.  Tradition is that portion of the Deposit of Faith that was not written down in Scripture but taught by the Apostles. It also includes the verbal records of the preaching and travels of the early Church fathers (and Mothers). Tradition says peter was crucified upside down and Paul was beheaded with a sword because he was a Roman Citizen. Acts of the Apostles gives us the fact that Christians first got that title at Antioch. Since Acts ends by around 50 A.D. it is reasonable that Christians were first so called about that time. John says he took Mary as his "Mother". Tradition says she lived 72 years and died at Antioch. It is unreasonable that she would not follow her Son's teaching, and like Peter give up kosher as no longer needed. There is just no reason that she would not have been a revered member of the Church at Antioch when she was there.  But invent your unsupported time scales, and define words, that the Church has used in its own way for two millenia, as you will, since it lets you reject the teachings of that Church. It does not relieve you of the requirements to live as God directs, it merely puts you outside the Church, and therefore cuts you off from the authority that you just might need to understand what it really is that God Wants.  "Outside the Church there is no salvation" means that when you deliberately reject the teaching and authority of the Church, you bring upon your self the onus of your failing to meet God's requirements, and ignorance will not be a defense.  Posted by: ceflynline | July 24, 2010 7:58 PM  It's the evangelicals that predict end of time not the Catholics. You are too smart for me to comment on anthing else you said ;)  POSTED BY: MIKEM5 | JULY 24, 2010 5:39 PM" XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  I think we might start with St Paul's writings to discover that "the end of days" is not a 19th-century evangelical Xian creation; also, look to St John's "Book of Revelations." In those days, they WERE the "evangelicals."  Posted by: mini2 | July 24, 2010 7:44 PM  Does the Washington Post have a future? I think the old Roman Catholic church will long outlive WaPo and everyone associated with it. Posted by: cpameetingbook  Rofl, well said. The demise of the Catholic Church has been predicter by its enemies for centuries, this century is little different.  Posted by: ZZim | July 24, 2010 7:33 PM  jmljep - tut tut. The "voodoo religions" (voudon, candomble, macoumbe, obeah, santeria, etc.) don't generally get into the "my God's better than your God" argument you suggest. If they find a God whose cultus is rewarding (culturally, spiritually, magically, whatever) they tend to adopt and adapt that cultus into their existing liturgy.  That aside, in the US at least, all the "religion oughtta be banned" arguments imply that it would be necessary to amend the First Amendment's free exercise clause, in the same way that one would have to eliminate it's separation clause to enforce tokens of religious belief on the population at large. Over the years, one side or the other in the tension which exists between these two imperatives has indeed tried chipping away at the protecgtion is dislikes, by legislation, judicial action, what have you. Simply ipping out the protection inherent in either endangers the protection inherent in the one one prefers.  As far as the original article, if the Catholic Church is forever linked to the present scandal (as it doubtless will be), it is also forever linked to numerous other scandals, crimes, schisms, through the ages. So are most human institutions with a history measured in centuries. Many of these still survive (there were periods during the Buddhist theocracy in Tibet that give, say, the papacy of Alexander VI a run for its money in terms of court intrigues and murderous power plays). Plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose.  Posted by: paulhume | July 24, 2010 7:32 PM  The origin of matter (energy, really) is one of those mysteries that can't yet be explained. I do know one thing about the answer, though: it will be achieved by observing and understanding the physical world. Reliance on supernatural explanations decreases knowledge of the world and of ourselves. It's time to let go of them.  Posted by: detoqueville | July 24, 2010 7:28 PM  So let me get this straight - you're saying:  Mary was a bad Jew, lived in her 70's, and was a Christian. You know this how? By what you call tradition? Is this the same tradition that includes the Inquisition, the wholesale slaughter of Jews, the wholesale slaughter of Muslims, the Crusades, the Jewish Pogroms and the tradition of priest rapists?  By the way, it wasn't in the 50's when they used the term "Christian", it was in the 80's. By your count, she was already dead.  But you don't care, since you also seem to think that only you Catholics go to heaven. What a miserable God you people believe in! He creates all people, but only wants 1/6 of his created humanity in heaven because they're the only ones who are Catholic.  Posted by: Renshaw | July 24, 2010 7:23 PM  Catholics should take a lesson from the Muslims.  When Muslims are confronted with the fact that the founder of Islam was a pedophile, they retort that Aisha was not 9 when the 56 year old Muhammad forced her into his bed but she was 12.  Aisha was six when the 52 year old Muhammad married her and when she turned 9 and had her first menstrual period he took her to bed.  Catholics should come up with similar evasive tactics and then threaten to kill any one that draws an image of Jesus. Then the Catholic religion will be everlasting.  Posted by: jailkkhosla | July 24, 2010 5:15 PM  They've already done it. Pervert priests are not pedophiles but rather ebephiles or hebephiles who practice homosexuality with boys 11 to 17. That makes it all better and the victims complicit with Donohue's definition of "man with man" sex.  Donohue calls the victims "gold diggers"  and devout Catholics blame gays, the press, the lawyers and a great conspiracy of "Catholic haters" and imply, along with Donohue that 11 year old boys are voluntary gay participants.  The Church pays off victims as if they were some adolescent sex workers and still fails to report abuse to civil authorities and sometimes even hides the perpetrators with the cooperation of complicit Catholic police and district attorneys.  Unless we hold their feet to the fire with criminal penalties for both the abuse and the racketeering, they will continue to let this happen and look the other way.  As I have said before, until this Church turns over those they know are criminals to civil authorities, this issue will remain a huge, inflamed, infected, puss-fill zit on the end of their pompous noses and it won't be because of too much Communion wine.  Posted by: areyousaying | July 24, 2010 6:58 PM  Does the Washington Post have a future? I think the old Roman Catholic church will long outlive WaPo and everyone associated with it.  Posted by: cpameetingbook | July 24, 2010 6:48 PM  I'd argue "aggiornamento" wasn't, as it moved institutional Catholicism radically away from the other orthodoxies without any "gain" elsewhere (save from that of the fire sale of priceless altars and statuary, paid for and built over centuries by rich and poor alike). As we still think of our military per the uniformed esprit de corps of World War II (as opposed tho the multisex pajama party it has become), so do non-Catholics think of Catholicism and are surprised at how the institutional Church has chosen to diminish itself, reaping scorn and rejection even in the many countries where Catholicism was an essential and often official part of the culture. In 2008 the US electorate thought its incoming government agreed with it that Iraq was a mistake; how long will it take the Vatican to realize that shooting itself in the foot 45 years ago was a mistake? It would seem the Holy See is cribbing from Toyota's press releases.  Posted by: phvr38 | July 24, 2010 5:55 PM  Geeze, Catholic and love it. If only society would realize that the church is a minor reflection of the rampant child abuse that exists - everywhere. Yes, we are Catholic, yes we are sinners. But we are not gun lovers, nor haters of anyone. A very small minority of priests were abusers and this fact was blown out of proportion by sad people that were thrilled to see good, truth and beauty fall. You may not love us, but we are still to love you.  Posted by: beck5 | July 24, 2010 5:44 PM  It's the evangelicals that predict end of time not the Catholics. You are too smart for me to comment on anthing else you said ;)  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 5:39 PM  My goodness--until the end of time! When that pronouncement came down, the 2d Coming was due in a half-hour; oops, make that next week, next year, 1200, 1600, . . ., 2012; oops. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  "The problem goes deeper than difficult doctrines or antiquated structures, problematic though these may sometimes be. Our children and grandchildren are abandoning the faith because they perceive -- rightly -- that its demands are at fundamental variance with the lives we have prepared them to lead. We have raised them to seek lives characterized by material comfort, sexual fulfillment, and freedom from any obligations that they have not personally chosen." XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  Who raises his/her/their children this way? This is a transliteration of the Roman Catholic hierarchy's "blame it on the prevalent, i.e., secular, culture"; more avoidance of responsibility: blame the Spockized parents! Such tripe.  Xianity in the US of A is a crutch, probably needed because the capitalistic society chews one up and spits one out; perhaps, if we had a different economic system, the spiritual safety net could be disposed of.  Posted by: mini2 | July 24, 2010 5:17 PM  Catholics should take a lesson from the Muslims.  When Muslims are confronted with the fact that the founder of Islam was a pedophile, they retort that Aisha was not 9 when the 56 year old Muhammad forced her into his bed but she was 12.  Aisha was six when the 52 year old Muhammad married her and when she turned 9 and had her first menstrual period he took her to bed.  Catholics should come up with similar evasive tactics and then threaten to kill any one that draws an image of Jesus. Then the Catholic religion will be everlasting.  Posted by: jailkkhosla | July 24, 2010 5:15 PM  How did the first matter evolve or was it always in existence?  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 5:14 PM  I'll bet all those catholic zombies wish for the good old days when you could Burn books and libraries Slaughter and burn (so-called) heretics, witches and blasphemers Molest young boys with impunity Sell indulgences to the poor Expel Jews from the country Wipe out native Indian cultures Indulge gleefully in torture Ignore science and decide the truth Raise armies to kill Moslems and Jews Help Nazi criminals find refuge Institutionalize and torture children Silence dissent â the hard way Convert by force â or else Forge religious documents Issue death warrants on political enemies Justify slavery Deprecate women Steal Jewish children Murder Christ-killers Support subservient tyrants and dictators  Posted by: linguine33 | July 24, 2010 5:13 PM  When you can tell me what/who was/is the first cause I'll conceed that there is no end of time.  Something doesn't come from nothing my friend. And if something creating nothing (as I believe) then something cand end it.  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 5:12 PM  When confronted with fact of Islamic apartheid in Saudi Arabia and most other Muslim countries, the Muslim reply is " As for building a church in Mecca--that's like building a Hindu temple in the Vatican, or building a synagogue in the Mormon Temple Complex in Salt Lake City. It's a pilgrimage city. That's its purpose."  Not quite the same. The Vatican is a very small area within Rome, a big city, just as the kaaba is a very small area within Mecca. Like Rome, Mecca is large city with an urban area of 328 sq miles and a metro area of 463 sq miles. No one is demanding that a church be built inside the kaaba which is the same size as the Vatican.  Just as there are mosques in Rome outside the Vatican so should churches be allowed to be built in Mecca outside the kaaba.  Tha Vatican is 0.17 sq miles in area , less than half a mile x half a mile, about the same size as the kaaba and the surrounding walls.  Muslims should stop beating around the bush , open up Mecca and Medina to non-Muslims and allow the building of non-Muslim places of worship any where in countries that have Muslim majorities.  Posted by: jailkkhosla | July 24, 2010 5:09 PM  Does the Catholic church have a future? I hope not. May the bastion of magical thinking and practice succomb to and be overpowered by the evolution of reason and humanism.  Posted by: elwoll | July 24, 2010 5:01 PM  MIKEM%: "It's been through a lot worse. It will exist until the end of time. Sorry folks. When God makes a promise He keeps it."  You make me chuckle when you say till the end of time. Ha ha ha. You've got to be kidding, or you have never really pondered how long humans have been here compared to the everlasting time before they showed up and the soon to come everlasting time after they disappear. Ha ha ha  Posted by: johng1 | July 24, 2010 5:00 PM  "PREDICTION: Pope Benedict XVI will suddenly or mysteriously die in less than 300 days. " Posted by: probably-no-deity  OK, Prophet. "The words of a false prophet shall not stand."  Should Benedict drop dead today there would be little mystery, given his advanced age. So his living beyond your prophetic 300 days is more mysterious than his death within the nearly year yu don 't give him.  So when Benedict is still Pope in June, 2011, you are exposed as what you are, a fraud, a false Prophet.  We have your prophesy on record. We have the time to wait.  Posted by: ceflynline | July 24, 2010 4:35 PM  "Despite the many wonderful individual Catholics, the problem with the Church is that in its Roman Imperial style of administration and the all too worldy benefits bestowed on its leadership, it is a travesty of what Jesus taught in the gospels. Posted by: woyaobob"  A: See post immediately below yours.  B: One of the great inventions of the Roman Political System was an organization to administer an agglomeration of hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of individual "Nations", that is groups of different tribes and clans having local affinity, into a political system that brought peace and economic prosperity to Western Asia, Asia Minor, much of Europe including the Western Isles, and North Africa down to the impenetrable Deserts. It kept that peace, as well as any nation since, for four hundred years, and the eastern portion continued that peace for nearly another thousand. As a political model the Roman Empire taught all Western Governments everything THEY know, even when, were they to learn more of what Rome knew, they might better governments for it.  The Church uses the better parts of Roman administration, but so do virtually every Western Democracy and every remaining Western Monarchy.  The Church's wealth is used, not for the pleasure or benefit of its administrators, but for the spread of Jesus teachings, ESPECIALLY its teaching on the status of the poor. The Church owns what it owns thanks to the generosity of its members and its careful stewardship of those donations. But those administrators live rather frugally in that physical creation, and carefully pass to their successors as much of that benefice as they can.  And when, after centuries of Monks living frugally and building their own living quarters in places where people chose not to live, and in the process improving agriculture, horticulture, animal husbandry, as well as Architecture, mechanics, and other industrial science, they frugally pass on to their nth generation wealthy monasteries, built by those monks, and greedy schismatics, heretics, and apostates decide to own those properties, that move on, (or are martyred, moving on in a much better direction) and invariably those treasures immediately begin rapid decay, because they existed at all only because of the pious maintenance by those frugal monks.  That wealth you condemn is there BECAUSE the leadership lived in careful following of Jesus teachings. When it falls into the ownership of those who are not so motivated, it decays quite rapidly.  Posted by: ceflynline | July 24, 2010 4:29 PM  "What arrogance! He hasn't left the Christian Church! And what would a Jewish woman want with anyone belonging to any other religion than Judaism? She was a devout Jew all her life and died as one! She probably never heard the word "Christian" at all.Posted by: Renshaw"  Since tradition has her living in Antioch at the time of her death, at 72 years of age, which would be around 55 AD, by which time the Antiocheans had coined the term Christian, she probably knew it, and if she knew it she probably embraced it.  An observant Jew all her life? Probably not, since women in Judiasm of the time were unimportant to the Jews of the time. She would certainly have known of the council of Jerusalem and its decision, and keeping kosher in gentile Antioch would have been far too great a burden, given Jerusalem's ruling.  Imposing on the Church Fathers Protestant adjustments to history that they need to justify their separation from the Church doesn't make your history valid.  One Church, and one Church only, can trace its existence to the First Pentecost. Every other Church and Sect defines itself by what its reasons were for separating from that Church. So the fundamental principle for EVERY Church not in union with Rome is a claim, many years separated from the Apostles, that the one continuing Church was somehow in error on the points claimed by the new Church, propounded by men who founded that Church. Yet obviously, if the one continuing Church was wrong, the New Church had no teachings that couldn't be equally wrong. One continuing religious and political, body can trace its existence to the first century A. D. The rest are imitators.  Posted by: ceflynline | July 24, 2010 4:07 PM  Despite the many wonderful individual Catholics, the problem with the Church is that in its Roman Imperial style of administration and the all too worldy benefits bestowed on its leadership, it is a travesty of what Jesus taught in the gospels.  Posted by: woyaobob | July 24, 2010 4:05 PM  "Once church leaders recognize this and choose to lead by example and positive counsel, the Church will begin to reinvigorate itself. Posted by: bonniebeagle"  By Example? The Current Pope, when he was still just an Archbishop, had some few possessions that he needed to tend his diocese. This for a highly educated and very talented man of long work experience. When he accepted his election, not needing his car any more, he gave it to be auctioned off and the proceeds to go to charity. He now, of his own, owns nearly nothing. As head of the Church he owns responsibility for it, but his salary is a small apartment in the Vatican, and his meals and clothing provided.  Your average American Diocesan priest has eight years of college level education in philosophy and theology before ordination, and gets a life time education in counseling, social work, and psychology. for all this education and experience he gets paid, in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, about $20,000 a year. given his seven day a week work schedule, and the day long nature of his work, this is quite a bit less than minimum wage. From that he pays his personnel needs, sometimes including paying for his own lodging. Many still find it possible to give away some of that pittance to help the poor.  If the priest, or Brother, or Nun are of a religious order, they may own some personnel possessions, few personnel possessions, or no personnel possessions, depending on which order.  For that compensation these people work to bring Christ to the world, by work, prayer, example, and occasionally by preaching or teaching. They tend the sick and the poor, care for orphans and the indigent, and try to bring surcease to the sick and dying.  And when a few, from weakness, or carelessness, or deliberate misconduct, do wrong, (sin), the world chooses not to see the Church as a whole and the sinners as an aberration, but to see the sinners, a small contingent, as the norm, and the Saints, like Mother Teresa, as the aberration. And then demand that the Church reform and lead by example.  Ok, since you wish to see only the warts, look at only the warts. The Church will in time purge themselves of those warts, reform itself as it can, and, since it is still made up of men, have priests, bishops, brothers, sisters, and even occasionally Popes who are less than warts.  But it will still be the Church, and as Catholics believe, it will still have the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And it is that promised guidance that makes the Church something to value and participate in.  And Joyless? Not in MY 63 years.  Posted by: ceflynline | July 24, 2010 3:51 PM  if you cling to a gun, at least it has reality to it. To cling to a mythology-based belief system is much much sadder. To cherish and polish the oddities of dress, food, mannerism, repression of women, hatred of others who have different clinging mythologies, denial of fault and the ability to be a disgusting and evil human being while still being able to mumble a few words that open the door to your Heaven. Be a mass murderer, win 72 virgins. Its very sad.  Posted by: pioneer1 | July 24, 2010 3:49 PM  The Churchâs one foundation Is Jesus Christ her Lord, She is His new creation By water and the Word. From heaven He came and sought her To be His holy bride; With His own blood He bought her And for her life He died.  She is from every nation, Yet one oâer all the earth; Her charter of salvation, One Lord, one faith, one birth; One holy Name she blesses, Partakes one holy food, And to one hope she presses, With every grace endued.  The Church shall never perish! Her dear Lord to defend, To guide, sustain, and cherish, Is with her to the end: Though there be those who hate her, And false sons in her pale, Against both foe or traitor She ever shall prevail.  Hope we sing it at Mass tomorrow!  My very best to all, and I mean all, each person on this blog, especially RU Saying, I hope he learns to forgive...Oh not for his tormentors sake, for his own.  Posted by: BlaiseP | July 24, 2010 3:31 PM  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 3:25 PM  "It would be nice to see the old pervert assassinated and open season on killing priests instigated !! Posted by: flyersout"  It wouldn't be the first time, and the immediate previous times are as recent as today, or Mexico in the early twentieth century, or Communist China, or...  And each persecution produced its share of volunteers gladly accepting the job and the imminent threat of martyrdom.  And after the persecution ends and the era passes, if there is still a human race there will still be a Church, a Pope, Cardinals, and Bishops and priests. A persecution will only cause the Church to gain more priests, not fewer.  Two thousand years of experience tell us this.  And scripture backs it up.  Posted by: ceflynline | July 24, 2010 3:23 PM  I think Cardinal Law should be in jail too. See we agree!  But (and I say this out of love) Jesus really started one church. Those that have broken away aren't really doing what Jesus asked them to do. Sure, God will decide who goes to heaven but poor old Jesus put Peter and his successors in charge of continuing his teaching. And of course the Blessed Mother didn't hear the word Christian but she did know that her son started a new religion and that his apostles were to carry it on.  God bless and sorry for the arrogance.  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 3:18 PM  God and the Church will live a lot longer than elderly blonde Washington Post reporters.  Posted by: Horace2 | July 24, 2010 3:16 PM  "And the Blessed Mother wants you back. Jesus wants you back."  What arrogance! He hasn't left the Christian Church! And what would a Jewish woman want with anyone belonging to any other religion than Judaism? She was a devout Jew all her life and died as one! She probably never heard the word "Christian" at all.  You think that everyone who isn't Catholic is somehow reprobate. We aren't. Here's a news flash for you, sweetie - Episcopalians believe in God, Jesus, and will go to heaven just like you Catholics.  Now go protect your priest rapists and send your money over to Cardinal Law so he can continue to live in his palace at Santa Maria Maggiore with his 15 servants. He belongs in jail for protecting all his priest rapists, but you and your Church can go on harboring him for as long as you can.  Posted by: Renshaw | July 24, 2010 3:12 PM  How long will we have to wait to see ALL churches simply banned? "My God is better than yours" should suffice at showing how ludicrous those voodoo religions are. I can't reasonably make a difference between any of them. Telling (Indoctrinating should I say) people not to worry about their present life and how happy they will be as soon as they are ... dead is a crime against humanity. It is demeaning to make one's life depending upon the whims (all purely invented) of a supposed God. All the rest, including the above article, is simply hard and shameful consequences. Religions and churches are a plague.  Posted by: jmljep | July 24, 2010 3:08 PM  Don't know what to say to that one...well...other then we want you back. And the Blessed Mother wants you back. Jesus wants you back. Just always remember that the Catholic Church is you home and she loves you. Take out your rosary and ask the Blessed Mother to take your hand and lead you to her Son. It will never fail.  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 3:05 PM  I am one of the one-third of Catholics who was born in the Church but who has left it because of the unenlightened leadership of most of the hierarchy and the rigidity of all its rules â¦ against contraception, its catalogue of mortal sins and accounting that boggles the mind, marriage with other Christians, woman clergy, the pro-pedophile policies of the current Pope etc,  I was educated at Catholic grammar and high schools and Catholic college where I had to take theology every semester. But now I am a member of the Episcopal Church along with a lot of ex-Catholics. According to Catholic dogma, we are all guilty of mortal sins and should all wind up in hell. The Catholic Church of the last 100 years has never been comfortable with the American Church starting with Pope Leo XIII in 1899 who published an apostolic letter condemning the heresy of âAmericanismâ and particularly the First Amendment with its Freedom of Religion to our Constitution. Pope Paul VI in 1964 orders the bishops of the then Vatican council not to take up the question of birth control which it had started to do and issues an encyclical in 1968 birth control which hundreds of Catholic theologians and priests openly reject. Paradoxically, the inventor of the modern day birth control pill, Dr John Rock, was a Catholic.  Cardinal Ratzinger, now the current Pope, has long history of opposition to any attempt to modernize the Church such as Vatican II, reining in theologians such as Hans Kung who question Papal infallibility.  As prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, Ratzinger sends a letter in 2001 to worldâs bishops ordering them to report to report pedophile and other sex crimes to the Vatican and not to the police. From 1992 to 2002, Bostonâs Cardinal Low, is proactive in his support of pedophile priests such as James Porter and Paul Shanley. He is finally forced to resign for having protected abusers than the abused. Shanley is sent to prison in 2005 for his rape of child. This Pope and many of the current cardinals have never believed in an open Church. With such leadership is it any wonder that the future of Catholicism looks bleak  Posted by: fedupindc | July 24, 2010 2:59 PM  For someone who believes theres mysteries we have yet to explain you sure sound confident about what there is and isn't.  Let's hope we don't find out Jesus did die and rise from the dead. That would ruin your whole theory ;)  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 2:58 PM  All churches (Catholic, Mormon, Islamic, et al) will continue to be influential because in difficult times people cling to their religion (and their guns.) Only the truth will truly set us free: there is no supernatural, no paranormal, only the natural and the normal and the mysteries we have YET to explain.  Posted by: detoqueville | July 24, 2010 2:55 PM  Good point. And I'd add that anyone who thinks Catholics are repressed both don't know much about the Catholic faith and don't understand true freedom. Is a train "repressed" because it has to stay on the tracks or is that what liberates it to be what it is?  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 2:51 PM  Do you think Peter or Mary or Jesus' Mother were speculating when they saw him Easter Sunday morning? It is a historical fact that Mathew, Mark, Luke and John had those stories down on paper. If you don't believe them why do you believe that the War of 1812 happened? It is speculation based on reason and logic my friend.  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 2:48 PM  The trouble is the assumption that it is either Catholic dogma, or else a life without any moral obligations. But isn't this because we take it for granted that Christianity is the only game in town?  A lot of Americans have tried Hinduism and Buddhism, two religions which are not dogmatic and do not eschew morality. (Some versions of Hinduism in India do have problems with dogma, but this does not apply to the versions prevalent in the West).  I do not suggest that people convert to one of these, but just learn about them to realize that there is more space than the choice between repressive dogma on the one hand, and materialistic selfishness on the other hand.  Posted by: rohit57 | July 24, 2010 2:45 PM  There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. What that means is that you can do nothing positive for your salvation. The means of salvation (the sacraments) are within the church Jesus started. Oh sure...God is merciful and those of other faiths may be in heaven but it would be in spite of their faith, not because of it.  How's that for some old fashioned orthodoxy ;)  The Roman Catholic Church (and other Catholic churches) certainly have a strong franchise in leading believers to salvation but it does not have a monopoly. Once church leaders recognize this and choose to lead by example and positive counsel, the Church will begin to reinvigorate itself. There has been more exploitation of the faithful over the centuries than the Church is willing to admit and, every so often, there comes a payback time (such as the Borgia popes fomenting the Reformation. The time for renewal is now.  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 2:43 PM  Sigh . . . Just as a small group of MEN decided which writings were sacred and which were not......a small group of men (not GOD) decides upon whom to confer Sainthood.  When (never) will people understand that concepts of who, what and even if God is are speculations of mere MEN?  Posted by: lufrank1 | July 24, 2010 2:41 PM  It's been through a lot worse. It will exist until the end of time. Sorry folks. When God makes a promise He keeps it.  Now if only Catholics would not use birth control like our church teaches then it would be able to keep pace with Muslims.  Posted by: mikem5 | July 24, 2010 2:35 PM  Well, I certainly hope so, as I've just joined!  Posted by: georges2 | July 24, 2010 2:18 PM  Does it have a future? Let's hope not. I hope they go into bankruptcy, lose their tax exempt status, and all those deviates are jailed. Not in any particular order.  Posted by: johng1 | July 24, 2010 2:07 PM  The Roman Catholic Church (and other Catholic churches) certainly have a strong franchise in leading believers to salvation but it does not have a monopoly. Once church leaders recognize this and choose to lead by example and positive counsel, the Church will begin to reinvigorate itself. There has been more exploitation of the faithful over the centuries than the Church is willing to admit and, every so often, there comes a payback time (such as the Borgia popes fomenting the Reformation. The time for renewal is now.  Posted by: bonniebeagle | July 24, 2010 2:01 PM  Religion was created by men for manipulatio, power and money. It thrives on ignorance and the fear of the unknown. No need to make anything more out of it. It will eventually finish off mankind.  Posted by: lionelroger | July 24, 2010 1:38 PM  We are indeed observing the dying fury of the Catholic Church. It is riding hard on its 2,000 year reputation. And riding it into the ground. The 60's were in fact the beginning of a bridge to a new enlightenment of inclusiveness. The Catholic Church tried to board that bridge with Vatican II but it didn't work because Vatican II didn't practice what it preached which I believe was love. If you love women and children and gays and all people, you do not continue to scorn and disdain them while saying I love you. In the end, Vatican II degraded love because it did not follow through by tearing down the walls of exclusion in the Catholic Church.  The oldest institution in the world is dying because the one thing it will not do is recognize that all men, women, children, gays, divorced, priests, nuns, all people are created equal. So be it. In the midst of this maelstrom of inequality, I believe the one thing the Catholic Church could do to revive itself and get back up off its knees and become a force for good in the world would be to take all those closed buildings, churches, seminaries, rectories, etc. and turn them into sanctuaries and refuges for all the children that were harmed by the Church, a commitment to take care of these children until the day they die. That is the road back. The worldwide road back. How likely is that? Near zero. That is why the inconceivable begins to be conceivable and we can imagine the fall of the Catholic Church which is not too big to fail.  Posted by: SarahTX2 | July 24, 2010 1:15 PM  As a recovering catholic I can say that the church, christianity or "religion" in general no longer has relevance to my life. I am generally a good and moral person who does not require a sky fairy to tell me what is right and what is wrong.  The problem with all churches, mosques, and temples, is that as you gain more knowledge, you shed the fairytales. All religions require and demand ignorance and superstitious fear in order to propagate its power. Knowledge and intelligence is the mortal enemy of religion. Always has been and always will be.  Posted by: mjcc1987 | July 24, 2010 1:09 PM  The judge in the federal trial of the 2008 California H8te Vote to harm LGBT Californians has evidence Catholic leaders conspired with Mormons to throw the H8te Vote by making massive secret, illegal cash and in-kind contributions to the H8te campaign. This is not the only serious violation of US laws Church hierarchy have committed in order to force their beliefs on our political system. They have been violating IRS 503c regs with massive lobbying for many years. All it will take is a few US officials with courage and the RCC will lose its tax-exempt status and be forced to pay massive fines for its criminal activities.  I take no pleasure in the demise of the RCC, the faith of my childhood. I honor the good Sisters who taught me, and note the Sisters spoke out FOR health care reform while the old men said "We're all set, to hell with everybody else." That hierarchy will probably make it into the Vatican City just before indictments are handed down.  Catholics will still be free to practice their faith even when they have forfeited their vast riches for their criminal activity. Their faith shouldn't depend on cathedrals OR huge amounts of commercial real estate currently owned by the RCC.  Posted by: CarrotCakeMan | July 24, 2010 1:01 PM  Catholics in name only CINOs can bring about the demise of the Church in certain nations as it grows in Asia and Africa at a rapid rate. Muslims destroyed the Catholic and Orthodox Church in North Africa, Middle East and Spain by 711 A.D-Muhammad died in 630 A.D. Spain reconquered its territory by 1492 under Queen Isabella on her white horse more courageous than our cowardly presidents who send others to seize oil for David Rockefeller. King Henry VIII and Elizabeth I destroyed the Catholic Church in England in the 16th century and Luther/Calvin did same in Scandinavia and East Germany. Muslims conquered Constantinople in 1453 weakening the Orthodox Church which left Catholic Church in 1054. Jesus said, "When I return, will there be any faith left on earth? Homosexual priests are doing a good job in destroying faith on earth.  Posted by: mascmen7 | July 24, 2010 12:42 PM  People have been predicting the demise of the Catholic Church since Saul of Tarsus in 35 AD.  Posted by: ravitchn | July 24, 2010 12:27 PM  If you believe that Jesus was the Son of God then you know that the gates of hell shall not prevail. Notice the word shall was used by Jesus. Shall is the stronger grammatical form of will or shall. Also through out the old testament their was always a remnant that survived even in the harshest times. I believe that we are the final remnant that will survive until the end of time.  Posted by: pechins | July 24, 2010 12:24 PM  "its demands are at fundamental variance with the lives we have prepared them to lead. We have raised them to seek lives characterized by material comfort, sexual fulfillment, and freedom from any obligations that they have not personally chosen."  Well, either Christ's Church will fall, or societies organized around these foolish and anti-human lives we have prepared them to lead" will fall.  Looking at European birthrates, I'd bet on the Church.  Posted by: gokart-mozart | July 24, 2010 12:04 PM  The problem with Catholic religion or for that matter any highly rigid or organized religion is that they are fundamentally in conflict with democracy, freedom of ideas, free speech and open discussion. On one hand we tell our children to think for themselves, and then we tell them God does not want women priest ( Catholics) or does not want women to get education (Taliban).  Religions have to modernize themselves. They have to keep up with the knowledge that is being generated in science, technology, humanities, medicine, history, cultures. It is not the other way around, like conservative like to think.  Posted by: ak1967 | July 24, 2010 11:53 AM  The threat of a huge meteorite headed towards the earth or of an all out nuclear war would concentrate the minds of the fallen away very quickly upon God and religion. Who needs God when prosperous and in possession of so much stuff that makes life worthwhile. There is so much anger and malaise in America because the god of prosperity...the one who creates full employment, an ever expanding economy and protects us from foreign and domestic enemies has deserted us. Who can we turn to now? Turn out the lights! The party is over!  Posted by: Impudicus | July 24, 2010 11:22 AM  I cannot believe the Carholic church will fall because gays infiltrated the clergy... these gays will burn in hell for hurting children...  ...and so will those of you who blame the problem on gays and hide your perverts.  Posted by: areyousaying | July 24, 2010 11:20 AM  Just say the phrase "The Catholic Church" and all the loonies come out to play.  Posted by: deacon777 | July 24, 2010 11:18 AM  Posted by: socomfy | July 24, 2010 11:14 AM  In my opinion, the RCC biggest problem is that it is so hierarchial that it has no way to discuss reforming itself. Vatican II started reform, but has been beat back. The church has no viable mechanism for dissent on important issues, and it has no method to decide what is its essential Christian doctrine vs. what is simply comfortable tradition. Today almost every Catholic tradition or doctrine is defended as essential. Constructive criticism is treated as unfaithful and sinful. It is caught between traditon and relevancy to younger people in the US.  One example, the church wants to educate children, both Catholic and non. When the church kicks out preschoolers because they have gay parents many straight young parents won't even consider their schools. The church is stuck between doctrine (that gays are wrong and need to be kept away), and it's pasotral mission of educating children. Fewer kids in Catholic schools means that the church becomes less relevant in society and less able to influence people.  I have seen the Catholic Church do amazing acts of compassion locally and internationally, so I pray the church will figure out a way to reform and be a viable force for the Gospel, esp. mercy and justice for the poor.  FYI-I am Protestant, not Catholic, but I have many Catholic friends whom I have discussed this with and I have read a bit about Vatican II and recent Catholic history. I have also worked with Catholic churches and dioceses professionally.  Posted by: outragex | July 24, 2010 11:00 AM  You wrote, "The abuse crisis was a hurricane battering a structure whose foundation had been eroding for years."  If one thinks of the "Catholic Church's Foundation" as being anything other than Jesus than the "foundation" has been eroding since day one of the church.  Jesus never said anything about the Church being "perfect or imperfect", what He said was that the "Church" had a mission and that "mission" is that "the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it".  You then wrote, "The decline of sacramental practice in Europe is so obvious as to require no further comment. But smug Americans who think "it can't happen here" should look at the numbers."  Some seem to think that the "mission" of the church is to keep the "institutional organization" going at all costs whereas as I have said and will repeat: The "mission" of the Church is that "the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it".  You then wrote, " It is in the hands of ordinary men and women who are willing to live lives that make no sense unless Jesus Christ is who we believe Him to be. In the end, it is only the saints who can save us."  If we "believe" that Jesus Is Who He Is, then we believe, or at least we should, that Jesus is OUR Saviour, OUR as in ALL OF HUMANITY AND ALL OF CREATION.  God's Plan will come to Fruition.  See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.  Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.  Posted by: ThomasBaum | July 24, 2010 10:59 AM  Has anyone ever asked why we support the Vatican when they are a dictatorship, rather than a democracy?  I think this hypocrisy is stunning, especially when coupled with the Vatican's policies on denying basic human rights to millions around the world (gays and lesbians), extorting it's citizens if they want a divorce (payments allow for annulment) and turning a blind eye to the rape and abuse of our children.  The Pope isn't elected, except by a select few cardinals. The people have no voice in their leadership. The Pope is no better than Castro or Chavez. Wake up.  Posted by: wpatters | July 24, 2010 10:40 AM  I cannot believe the Carholic church will fall because gays infiltrated the clergy... these gays will burn in hell for hurting children...  Posted by: DwightCollins | July 24, 2010 10:33 AM  The Catholic Church will survive until the end of days... The Catholic Church is the Church of GOD on earth... is it manned by humans...yes... is it perfect...no... but then, it's not about the pope down to the priests... it's about GOD and His Son JESUS CHRIST... and can you tear GOD down... no... but when you die, you can try then... good luck... imagine if you will... that what you believe...is what happens when you die... so while your energy dissapates into nothing... mine with others will bask in the glory of GOD forever...  Posted by: DwightCollins | July 24, 2010 10:31 AM  The catholic church has finally been showen for what it really is, an organization of old men who molest children, lie about it and has the largest pedophilic group of old Homosexuals in the world that has been molesting children for centuries and has gotten away with it because the catholic church has lied to the public for the last 4 centuries about this. This supposed church should be disbanded immediately and all of the old pedophiles throwen in jail where they belong instead of being transferred to a remote outpost so they may continue molesting children.  Posted by: JimW2 | July 24, 2010 10:26 AM  religion is a total scam a major fraud, it poisons everyone it touches.  Posted by: willemkraal | July 24, 2010 10:07 AM  In one third world country where population explosion has become a major problem, Catholic chapels or centers offer free operation to untie the fallopian tubes of mothers after indoctrinating them that artificial contraception is a SIN.  This devilish Church invent their own doctrines so parents would produce more children despite their abject poverty. With more extra children, they are forced to raise them with no proper education and decent meals and most of all, no future.  They then teach these poor people that their government is the cause of their poverty due to corruption but lo and behold those same government personnel are usually "devout catholics".  Some revolt (with the church's help of course) which cause more poverty and this has become a "CATHOLIC CYCLE" which I presume is routinely duplicated around the world.  To escape poverty, many go abroad adding more economic pressure to their countries of destination.  Catholic countries not only over populate, they produce extortionist rebels too. Had you wondered why there are no marxist rebels in Islamic countries but there are so many in catholic countries? It's because many of their priests support that ideology. They breed fast and then kill each other fast too. WHAT A CYCLE.  There are many things this church does which is outside our scope of detection. The devil could be using a much bigger cycle that is harder to detect. Consciously or unconsciously, all catholics is part of that grand cycle.  This church teaches that poverty is blessed but when they become truly poor, then comes the blame game and they then teach rebellion..  Posted by: spidermean2 | July 24, 2010 9:57 AM  Does the Catholic Church have a future?  Does superstition have a future? Betcha yo'donkey... I mean: Knock on wood.  All religions are local. Only science is universal.  Posted by: sdr1 | July 24, 2010 9:41 AM  Comment: "The whole atmosphere was a turn off for the young. Fear seemed to be the driving force..."  Okay, but those are the impressions of a child. You are now an adult, responsible for yourself and your own soul. You have a responsibility to yourself as well as others to educate yourself as an adult, and to develop for yourself a mature personal understanding of the truth.  Posted by: thebump | July 24, 2010 9:21 AM  The Roman Catholic Church is not only a church denomination, it even has its own country, aka the Vatican.  How do I know the RCC has its own political government? The United States of America sends assigns an Ambassador to the Vatican. But, the USA has no ambassadors with other church denominations.  When the RCC Papa (what they call in in Italy and Spanish speaking countries) speaks, he claims to speak for ALL Christians. But, he never speaks on my behalf. I am not a member of his denomination. The RCC claims that the Pope is the Vicar of Jesus the Christ.  Well, who is the Vicar who Jesus promised to represent Him after he ascended up to Heaven? Why, the Holy Spirit, of course.  The RCC practices a form of godliness and most of its rituals are modified versions of Jewish rituals. No such rituals were practiced by the 1st Century AD church members.  Posted by: joe_allen_doty | July 24, 2010 9:00 AM  This is my take on the RCC: Contrast and compare the simple life of Jesus, a Jewish man in humble clothes, living from place to place with no real home, preaching and teaching among the poor and outcasts, helping others with love and compassion and understanding etc etc etc. WITH the life style culture of the pompous popes and cardinals in elaborate costly robes and hats living in palaces of splendor surrouded by luxury and fine food and wine arguing doctrine and issuing fatwas against gays and women etc etc etc. Jesus was the real deal The popes/cardinals etc are nothing more than fake potentates from the old "holy" Roman Empire.... in my humble opinion, of course. Others may disagree; OK with me. I support BOTH freedom of religion AND the Wall of Separation between church & state.  Posted by: mikepost1 | July 24, 2010 8:58 AM  A saint is anyone who is old enough to know right from wrong and has made his or her own deliberate decision to accept Jesus' free gift of salvation.  If you are a Believer in Jesus and you try to live by HIS teachings and the teachings and practices of the apostles and the disciples of Jesus during the 1st Century AD, you are a member of the real church with even Paul called "The Way."  Paul did not approve of denominations in the sense that groups of people followed a religious leader.  Posted by: joe_allen_doty | July 24, 2010 8:51 AM  I grew up in a Catholic family, and was surrounded by many relative,s also involved in the church. Was a rural community, and everything seemed to revolve around the church, the rules confession, making sure you donated, etc., etc. Religious artifacts, adorned everyones home, and the priest were treated as if they were very special people. The whole atmosphere was a turn off, for the young. Fear seemed to be the driving force to keep people in tow.  Posted by: dangreen3 | July 24, 2010 8:48 AM  Posted by: areyousaying | July 24, 2010 8:44 AM  As long as there are young boys and girls to be molested, the Catholic Church will definitely survive.  Posted by: geonerd20 | July 24, 2010 8:41 AM  The Catholic Church signed its own doom when it strayed from the Gospels and put its strength in Tradition (with capital T). The message of Jesus is so lost to the Church right now--only the Holy Spirit can revive it. Never underestimate the work of the Holy Spirt. We sometimes have trouble recognizes it.  Posted by: mdc2836 | July 24, 2010 8:14 AM  What's frightening is not the downfall of the RCC - we can live without it- but the steady rise of the other male-dominated social and political system incompatible with democracy and masquerading as a religion that was invented approx. in the year 610 CE.  Posted by: ThishowIseeit | July 24, 2010 8:10 AM  In my hometown, the diocese closed a small catholic school which was the oldest parish school in the town. Parents were outraged and the bishop refused any sort of compromise. Their only option was to move the kids into other schools further away. It was a financial decision. Months later, the diocese purchased (in cash) a home in the wealthiest neighborhood in town for a new auxiliary bishop. There were plenty of existing old rectories and homes where the new bishop could have lived. This is the problem, I'll bet it's happening all over the country, all over the world.  Posted by: Grandblvd03 | July 24, 2010 8:02 AM  " Our children and grandchildren are abandoning the faith because they perceive-rightly- that its demands are at fundamental variance with the lives we have prepared them to lead ". Since this sentence implies that we-the parents- do not face the same problem, it would be worthwhile to read what Bernard Shaw, citing the Church by the name of Barabbas, wrote in page 9 of 'Androcles and the Lion '( Penguin Edition, 1966, and therefore not influenced by the current events ) . QUOTE : " The moneyed, respectable, capable world has beeen steadily anti-Christian and Barabbasque since the crucifixion; and the specific doctrine of Jesus has not in all that time been put into political or general social practice. I am no more a Christian than Pilate was, , or you, gentle reader ". END OF QUOTE  Posted by: elshibinihussein1 | July 24, 2010 7:53 AM  JT: Do you really think what you write passes for rational discourse?  In addition to holding Texas representative of world Catholicism (!), all you seem to be able to do is make ad hom accusations:  You really are pathetic, disgusting,etc.  As well as the killer:  Poor dear deluded fellow. You realise tactics like the above are indicative of a weak position, don't you?  Posted by: BlaiseP | July 24, 2010 7:40 AM  good for you BLAISEP, never let the truth disturb your fantasies. You're a fine True Believer, and you'll go to your grave someday with all the self-assurance only the most delusional people can have.  Posted by: jontomus | July 24, 2010 7:36 AM  Sorry, JT, along with not being able to think, it seems you have problems reading! The article is titled:  Does the Catholic Church have a future?  Now, it doesn't say the Catholic churc in Texas or in America or even in North America. Scalia quite reasonably gave an analysis of the 750,000,000 (or so)Catholics who live outside the promised land or Europe and North America.  Posted by: BlaiseP | July 24, 2010 7:34 AM  Oh, BTW BLAISEP, libel isn't libel if it's true.  Just because you don't like the sound of it, doesn't make it libel.  You really are pathetic. don't you have any other kind of imporant something in your life, is it really so empty you'd defend child molestors just so you could have a church to go to?  Whine, whine, whine, die. Not much of a life BLAISEP.  Posted by: jontomus | July 24, 2010 7:33 AM  The decline church-going Catholics is most pronounced in Europe (with the exception of central Europe--Poland, Czech, western Ukraine), and in the US, although Latinos seem fairly resilient to the prevailing anti-Catholic sentiment from the likes of folks like,well, Jontomos and flying scout(out?), who is libelous although his comment will probably stand.  Jontomos OTOH merely calls names. Well, if your argument is weak enough, that is all that is left!  Posted by: BlaiseP | July 24, 2010 7:31 AM  BLAISEP, you are such a denier.  The church moved proven molestors, priests they KNEW had molested children, to other parishes, other locations, even other countries.  They did not turn them over to the civil authorities, they hid the problem.  Sending a proven molestor from one parish to another allowed this molestor to molest again. That is *SUPPORT* of child molestation.  Refusing to report the molestor to the civil authorities is SUPPORT of child molestation.  You want to argue about semantics, crime of commission vs omissions. Well that is pathetic.  And the author is talking about growth of the church IN AMERICA. You very carefully avoided seeing that, so you could find some location, some point of argument to say it isn't losing membership. Semantical and rhetorical BS is all you have.  Posted by: jontomus | July 24, 2010 7:31 AM  PS Texas is not the world. If you read Scalia's article (which you obviously didn't) you will find the growth is in the Southern Hemisphere: LatAm, Africa, Asia.  Posted by: BlaiseP | July 24, 2010 7:24 AM  jontomus alledges:Your church... They supported sexual molestation of children.  Please back up your statement with evidence that the Catholic Church supported priestly abuse of Catholic children.  On the contrary, the Church apologized again and again and paid out billions in damages. Your charge is false. (The rest of your rant is just standard anti-Catholic bile one would expect to find on the Post.)  Posted by: BlaiseP | July 24, 2010 7:22 AM  "By submitting content, you are consenting to these rules:  You agree not to submit inappropriate content. Inappropriate content includes any content that: infringes upon or violates the copyrights, trademarks or other intellectual property rights of any person is libelous or defamatory is obscene, pornographic, or sexually explicit"  You agreed to the above flyers out. Let's see if the Post agree to enforce its own rules.  (Does libelous material against a Catholic count?)  Posted by: BlaiseP | July 24, 2010 7:17 AM  BLAISEP, your 'moderate growth' in your church is exceeded by the growth of athiests, atheism, non-believers and people who just don't care about any religion in general.  My old mother is a recently returned Catholic, living in retirement in Texas. Her priest is a man from India, and she with 4 other old white ladies are the only Americans in her church. All the other people are from Mexico, El Salvador, and Honduras, few of them speak enough english to talk to her.  This is the picture of your church in America today. Of course, being a true believer yourself, why should anyone expect you to be able to see this?  Isn't that the same kind of lame complaint you're making about there not being enough pro-catholic stories in this forum?  Your church, the people running it, are more concerned with their image here on earth than they are with some fantasy heaven you all believe in. They supported sexual molestation of children. This is undeniable ... though again, we all expect you to deny it.  Your unwillingness to see this truth makes you an enable of pedophiles as sure as any cardinal or pope, and therefore you are disgusting.  Posted by: jontomus | July 24, 2010 7:15 AM  The catholic church is a stinking cesspool of ignorance and queer leadership. The pope, is himself a perverted old b@stard who has undoubtedly molested many boys himself.  It would be nice to see the old pervert assassinated and open season on killing priests instigated !!  Posted by: flyersout | July 24, 2010 6:49 AM  "Does the Catholic Church have a future?" What a stupid question! The future is not granted to anyone but considering the history of the Catholic Church, it's definitely here to stay.  Posted by: voice02 | July 24, 2010 6:44 AM  Christ promised the Holy Spirit, and proclaimed that the gates of Hell shall not prevail. If you believe anything you believe this.  The biggest scandal is the dumbing down of the liturgy, the sacraments, sacred art and music, and Church teaching. Once someone truly grasps that the Holy Mass is the most sublime experience that one can hope for this side of Heaven, you can't keep them away. But if what they regularly see is irreverence and what they hear is dreck, it is only natural that the limitations of the human senses would militate against the supernatural beauty and truth.  Posted by: thebump | July 24, 2010 6:41 AM  The future of the Church is not in the hands of its leaders...It is in the hands of ordinary men and women  To be accurate, it is in the hands of neither. If you are a Catholic, you know the Church is in the hands of the Holy Spirit. To speculate whether Christ's Mystical Body has a "future" is not so much impertinent as absurd. It is outside time â it has no future as it has no past. To suggest that the Church needs to be "saved" by men and women gets everything exactly backwards.  Even more preposterous is the author's breathtakingly ignorant comment about "embittered and joyless" orthodoxy. Nothing could be be further from the truth (literally). Nothing is as joyous and liberating as the pursuit of truth. Orthodoxy simply means standing on the shoulders of giants rather than wallowing in the muck.  Posted by: thebump | July 24, 2010 5:58 AM  âTell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?â And Jesus answered them, âSee that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, âI am the Christ,â and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.  âThen they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."  Posted by: politbureau | July 24, 2010 5:48 AM  One thing that would seriously disarm many of the church's problems would be for senior clerics to be held accountable for their actions on clergy crimes. If a few potentates (Cardinal Law, e g) were to do time, there would be a different less lax attitude on the part of his cpnfreres. As for doctrinal issues, the church (if it is to remain true to its calling) will have to accept that doing what it thinks is right has to cost sometimes.  Posted by: potaboc | July 24, 2010 5:46 AM  Here is a more balanced view. I dare WaPo to feature it:  Well, which is it, is the church dying, or is she growing?  The latest Pew Forum suggests that while the number of Catholics in the United States has remained fairly stable, the Church has immigration to thank for it; America does not seem to be threatened with unmanageable growth. America is not the world, however, and numbers released by the Vatican in February of 2010 showed 1.7 percent growth, worldwide, since 2007."  So, the church is growing, moderately. Makes a change from the standard fare from On Faith (sponsored by an atheist and Episcopalian--which is the next best thing--what can you expect?)  Posted by: BlaiseP | July 24, 2010 3:05 AM  Posted by: BlaiseP | July 24, 2010 2:55 AM  With the RCC administration painting them self into a corner by blameming all but not admitting that they silenced the truth of the sexual abuse crimes of children to protect the image of RCC has done more damage since the damage they brought on with the monk Martin in Germany.I bet the RC women will never forget how the pope call the sin of ordination of a women a more damageing of a sin the abuseing a child sexually. Pope of P.R..No wonder RC members attitudes are changeing. The old days of hell,fire,& damnation from the clergy are past tense. It time for a NEW pope and then VATICAN III to turn the RCC around or there will be empty pews in the old church.  Posted by: usapdx | July 23, 2010 11:39 PM  The Great "Peace Blessing" AQUARiUS-age Preditor is Com'th To Cleanup from the 'War Blessing' PISCES-Age, Garbage.  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CREDIT to "JJ" . . @ . . http://onwapo.com  Posted by: probably-no-deity | July 23, 2010 7:43 PM  PREDICTION: Pope Benedict XVI will suddenly or mysteriously die in less than 300 days.  Note: Please forgive i, but this is what WE [i] see in the Eklah't-iON so-called "MEME-TELEPATH" Logic-Ball (mind, not Crystal) so to spaketh 'Truth' (opposite 'Myth'). So,  Hopefully by Posting this [Ominous Prediction] that the POpe'py's Detractor's or Handlers or Conspirators won't Go through with what they Did To John Paul's Previous Short-Term Pope (Sudden/Mysterious unexplained Death during the Vatican-Banking Scam of late roaring 70's & Russian High 80's. i.e. see Michael SINdona et al).  We [i] HOPE we art wrong. Sorry.  Posted by: probably-no-deity | July 23, 2010 6:24 PM  Don't know what a saint is. Can you introduce one to me to prove one exist? Or is your last point meant that only the true delusionalist will be left?  Posted by: petelafond | July 23, 2010 5:55 PM
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