Somebody called it the "ultimate" NSA debate.  It put Glenn Greenwald, one of the first journalists to receive the treasure trove of NSA documents from Edward Snowden, face to face with the former NSA chief Michael Hayden, who led the NSA before and after 9/11. The two took part in a two-on-two debate, joined by Reddit founder and Internet entrepreneur Alexis Ohanian, and Alan Dershowitz, a prominent lawyer and a professor at Harvard Law School.  During the hour and a half debate, the four tried to convince the around 2,500 attendees who watched it live in Toronto — as well as all the others who followed online — whether surveillance is legitimate or not. Greenwald and Ohanian were on the "con" side, and Hayden and Dershowitz on the "pro" side.  At times, the four argued convincingly, tried to provide facts, provoked the opponents, at exchanged rhetorical punches. Greenwald and Hayden led the charge, fiercely defending their own positions, while Dershowitz tried to play the role of the law professor who admits that sometimes surveillance can be too much. Ohanian tried to separate himself from the other three by underlining his geek and tech credentials — even though it was Hayden the one who scored the only Simpsons reference.  You can watch the debate in its entirety below, but we've collected some of the best quotes and exchanges below.  1. "Sometimes [the NSA leaks have] been pushed out there in a way that — let me be kind — it's not clear. And, other times has been put out there in a way that is just wrong." — Hayden  Hayden was sharp and witty, and tried to portray the opponents' arguments as not based on facts, or simply misinformed.  2. "Such technological tools [...] are helping us now in the hot war against terrorists who would bomb this theater if they had the capacity to do so." — Dershowitz  Dershowitz, a civil liberties specialist, tried to be the moderate in the debate, even admitting that there's not enough accountability right now against NSA surveillance, "but we're getting there," he said. Despite his attempt at moderation, he did resort to a few straw-man arguments, and some attempts at ridiculing the other side.  3. "What state surveillance actually is is best understood by the NSA's own documents and own words, which I think as you know I happen to have a lot of." — Greenwald  Greenwald responded to Hayden with funny responses and quoting extensively from the NSA documents as well as other sources like the December court decision that defined the NSA's metadata collection program as "almost Orwellian."  4. "Alexis, I actually agree with a lot of your stuff, the balkanization of the Internet would be a human tragedy. […] Glenn, I don't agree with anything you said." — Hayden  Hayden also criticized Greenwald for mischaracterizing the NSA. "I've got an image coming out that the people who work [for] and lead the NSA are like that character in the Simpsons ... 'excellent, excellent.'”  5. "The surveillance state has run amok. Technology that's enabled us to send selfies 24/7 — not that valuable –- has also enabled us to be spied upon us 24/7." — Ohanian  Ohanian was probably the funniest of the four (at a certain point he said: "Neither one of us wants to take responsibility for Bieber," referring to Americans and Canadians) and constantly reminded the audience that he was the technologist in the room, able to understand exactly what all these NSA revelations actually mean for the Internet. He talked about the dangers of a balkanized Internet, and the dangers of letting the NSA exploit surveillance flaws without telling others.  6. "Accusations fit on a bumper sticker, the truth takes longer." — Hayden  Hayden quipped this to Greenwald, when he prompted Hayden to "talk about everyone, […] not just Americans."  7. "[Greenwald] really sounds like he's against all surveillance unless you can find a guy with the Al Qaeda card, wearing an Al Qaeda baseball cap, an Al Qaeda uniform." — Dershowitz  In one example of a straw-man argument, Dershowtiz accused Greenwald of being against all kinds surveillance, unless they target just terrorists, something that is impossible to do since they are often hard to distinguish from others, he said. Greenwald, a lawyer himself, had a response ready.  8. "It's so much easier to debate people when you can pretend that they hold moronic position that they don't actually believe." — Greenwald  The debate was held in Toronto, hosted by Munk Debates, a Canadian charitable initiative established by the Aurea Foundation. You can watch it in its entirety, and we strongly suggest you to, below.  Have something to add to this story? Share it in the comments.
Glenn Greenwald and former NSA chief Michael Hayden faced off during a debate in Toronto, and the two didn't spare any barbs against each other.