EDITOR’S NOTE: The following interview is reprinted from a little book titled, “RELIGION IN BRIEF Station W.C.N.B., Detroit, Michigan 1933 ‘Wallace Fard Muhammad vs Albert Einstein’” that was obtained by Muhammad Speaks in early 1997. There was no author, no address and no copyright to obtain information on how to acquire additional copies or to obtain permission to reprint the material. There was not even a price listed on the book.
The only information , printed on the cover of this book, as to who was responsible for this wonderfully historic work was “@ 1996 Malik Publishing Inc.”
We wanted to share this information with our readers and say THANK YOU TO MALIK PUBLISHING INC. for this treasure you have shared with all of us.
Muhammad Speaks has no concrete proof that this work is authentic. We have researched tirelessly since receiving this book in early March, 1997 to try to find out whether this interview actually did take place.
During our research we checked microfilm for the Detroit News and Detroit Free Press for a listing of W.C.N.B. radio station and found nothing. Historians informed us, however, that Black radio stations and/or programs were probably not listed in the Detroit News and Free Press in 1933.
We found during our research, that the only kinds of radio programs Black people were allowed to speak (not sing) on in Detroit in 1933 were religious ones. In confirming the historians’ guess, we found that in 1933, many buildings, including 3408 Hastings Street, (the building that Messenger Elijah Muhammad and the Saviour taught Islam in) that were occupied by Black people, at that time, were either not listed in the “City of Detroit Directory: or listed as “vacant”.
So we decided to try to find out whether or not Albert Einstein was in Detroit at any time in 1933. And if so, would he have made an appearance on a Black religious radio program.
We found that Einstein did visit Michigan in 1933, but according to a librarian in the History and Travels department of the Detroit Public Library “since his travel to Detroit may not have been significant enough, his stay may not have been recorded at all.”
We narrowed it down that the interview would have to had taken place somtime between January 1 and May 26, as we know that Messenger Elijah Muhammad taught us that The Saviour left Detroit on May 26, 1933. And according to the Tuesday, January 10, 1933 edition of The New York Times, Albert Einstein was in Los Angeles, California on January 9, 1933 to visit the California Institute of Technology.
The book, Einstein in America (page 7) says, “Einstein was in Pasadena on January 30, 1933.” And that “He remained in Pasadena until the middle of March, 1933.”
In studying the life of Mr. Einstein, who deemed himself “sympathetic” to blacks, yes he might have appeared on a black religious radio show.
Page 219 of the book Einstein in America reads Einstein was more frequently critical of various aspects of American society in his later years that he was in the period before 1945. He felt that the most offensive aspect of life in the United States was the unjust treatment of its black citizens. The “worst disease” in American society Einstein once wrote, is “the treatment of the Negro…”
The book also states that “In the late 1930′s Einstein…became friends of Marian Anderson (the Black woman singer of Negro Spirituals)” and that Anderson stayed with Einstein and his wife whenever she sang in Princeton.
While studying the language of Mr. Einstein, we found in the book The Drama of Albert Einstein, by Antonia Vallentine, on page 102: “The practicing Jews wanted to know whether he was really one of them, and as this was America, where matters of conscience are made public, a New York rabbi cabled to him in advance as though examining his credentials: “Do you believe in God?” Einstein cabled back this truthful and brief reply: ‘I believe in Spinoza’s God…’”
The sister who passed this little book (“Wallace Fard Muhammad vs Albert Einstein”) on to Muhammad Speaks told us that the young man (whose name she did not remember) told her that it was taken from an old phonograph recording owned by a 90-year-old brother whose name we were not able to obtain.
Note: 1440 AM is still an “All Gospel” Radio Station. The current owners say that they brought the station from Bell Broadcasting (a Black-owned company). The owners of Bell Broadcasting say that they have no knowledge of the owners of W.C.N.B. in Detroit, in 1933.
On October 22, 2004 Brother James D. Muhammad of Greenbelt Maryland, questioned the authenticity of “The Interview” when he emailed Muhammad Speaks saying: “I question Mr. Muhammad identifying himself as the Son of Man. According to my understanding, he did not want to be known and told Elijah that he could not reveal his identity until he was gone. Why would he go through the trouble of telling his Caliphate to hide his identity all-the-while making it public on radio?”
Up until receiving the email from Brother James Muhammad, we (at Muhammad Speaks) had accepted the following interview as Truth. Out of all the responses we received concerning “The Interview” and even our own investigation of it’s authenticity, we had never considered the observation made by Brother James D. Muhammad. And we regard him as a hero for coming forth and sharing his view with us.
On October 31, 2004 MUHAMMAD SPEAKS received an email response from brother Bro. R. Narkim Muhammad to our “update” regarding Brother James D. Muhammad’s observation.
The following are words of BROTHER R. NARKIM MUHAMMAD:
I was reviewing the fact that you updated your “Saviour VS Einstein” link to include ‘Falsehood’ in it. With all due respect to Bro. James D. Muhammad, I think the Muslims aught to check out the Book, ‘OUR SAVIOUR HAS ARRIVED’, Chapter 9, opening paragraph…
“No civilized nation wants the socalled Negroes. Only Allah our Loving and Most Merciful God Who came in the person of Master Fard Muhammad in 1930, will accept us.
It was not until 1933 that He Began Revealing His True Self to us as being the answer to the Prophecy of Jesus, the coming of the Son of Man, the Seeker of the Lost Sheep.”
Brother R. Narkim is an even greater hero for pointing out the answer to Brother James D. Muhammad’s observation. And we Thank him for sharing this VERY IMPORTANT FACT FROM MESSENGER ELIJAH MUHAMMAD!!!! Thanks to Brother R. Narkim, we, at Muhammad Speaks, have returned to regard the following interview to be truth, because of the above evidence, but still, Muhammad Speaks would be grateful to anyone with more information as to the authenticity of this interview.
Actual Excerpt taken from station W.C.N.B. in Detroit, 1933. Religion in Brief. –Guest speakers tonight include Mr. Wallace Fard and world known mathematician, Mr. Albert Einstein.
(Announcer, Mr. Brandon): Gentlemen, it is a great pleasure to have you two here tonight as guest on Religion in Brief. It serves us here at station W.C.N.B., as well as the public, as a great opportunity to get a chance to probe in activities and lifestyles, philosophies and religious outlooks of you two gentlemen who are contributing much energy to certain sections of our nation. Mr. Einstein, to our scientific advancement in the Principles of Relativity; and Mr. Fard to the minority of our nation with what I’ve heard you say on many occasions in the past “Knowledge of Self”. Mr. Einstein, could you give our listeners a brief run down on yourself?
(MR. EINSTEIN): Yes, I’d be glad to. First, I’d like to say thank you Mr. Brandon for inviting me on your show tonight. I feel comfortable and it is a pleasure to be here. At this stage of my work, I am involved in certain experiments, which covers the scope of “Atomic enlightenment” as well as developments for this country, in case of nuclear warfare. Second, Mr. Brandon, they refer me as being a scientist, opening up new channels to the principles of relativity. Now I say, my work includes the science of matter and energy, and of the interaction between the two. Thus, I would rather be known to the world as a theoretical physicist in the mathematical view of relativity.
(Mr. Brandon): Very interesting. Mr. Fard, could you give the listeners a brief run down on yourself?
(W.F. MUHAMMAD): Salaam-Alaikum. For you, Mr. Brandon, Mr. Einstein and the listeners elsewhere and abroad. My Attribute is Fard Muhammad Ibn Alfonso. I extend my thanks first to Allah, God, for enabling me to be here tonight. Your offer, Mr. Brandon, is greatly appreciated by me, may Allah bless you. a little about myself: I am SON OF MAN, as it is written; Seeking to Save that which was Lost, and Restore again that which has gone astray.
(MR. BRANDON): Thank you gentlemen. We’ll be right back in 60 seconds.
(MR. BRANDON): We’re back at station W.C.N.B. 1440 on your dial. Religion in Brief. Tonight our guest are Mr. Albert Einstein and Mr. Wallace, excuse me, Mr. Fard Muhammad. Mr. Muhammad what would you say your complete theory of religion and Islam is?
(MR. MUHAMMAD): For years now people have been asking me questions about my theory of religion, Truth, Islam, Allah, etc., etc…People who have attended my lectures throughout Illinois, Michigan and some in L.A…but you see, Mr. Brandon, 95% of the population have made religion and Truth something permanent, and is religion and Truth permanent? If it is, then it is continuous, and what is continuous is not Truth. That is the beauty of Truth: It must be discovered from moment to moment, not remembered. A remembered truth is a dead thing. Truth must be discovered from moment, because it is living. It is never the same; yet each time you discover it, it is the same. What is important is not to make a theory of Truth, not to say Truth is permanent in us and all the rest is an invention of the old who are frightened of both life and death. It is the Skunk Race, who are decaying, and their philosophies have no validity. The fact is that Truth is Life, and has no permanency. It cannot be taken for granted that you know life. Your amusement and your thinking process; that dull, repetitive process, is not life, nor Truth, neither religion.
(MR. BRANDON): Mr. Muhammad, I’m sure me, as well as our listeners have a lot of questions concerning that last statement you made. So let me begin with this: You said Truth is not permanent, nor is it continuous; then how can it be infinite, if it does not possess those two qualities?
(MR. MUHAMMAD): Life is something to be discovered. You cannot discover it if you have not lost it; if you put aside the things that you have found. Do an experiment with what I am saying. Put aside your philosophies, your religion, your customs, you racial taboos, and all the rest of it; for they are not life. If you are caught in those things you will never discover life; and the function of education (knowledge) surely is to help you discover life all the time. Now permanent implies continuing in the same state, which is duration, and duration is the time during which something exists. Now once we…
(MR. EINSTEIN): Excuse me, Mr. Muhammad, may I cut you off for a second?
(MR. MUHAMMAD): Sure, speak.
(MR. EINSTEIN): Before we move into a different topic, please let me ask you this: If certain individuals stored their religions, philosophies and spiritualism for another’s beliefs, because they might not feel sound, is that not a sin to those of a higher nature?
(MR. MUHAMMAD): Those individuals who adopt theosophy, spiritualism, or hypnotism, may possess natures above some others who eschew their false beliefs, therefore, my contest is not with the individual, but with the false system. The Blackman here in the so-called wilderness, loves those people of stature. This is why I shall continue to labor and endure the strong currents of spirituality, the manifestations of which are health, purity, and self-immulation, must deepen human experience; until the beliefs of material existence are seen to be bold impositions; and sin, as well as disease, and death, give everlasting place to the scientific demonstration of Truth in mathematics, and to God, the Perfect Man, Allah.
(MR. BRANDON): We are told that the attainment of Wisdom and Power can only be acquired through study and knowledge.
(MR. MUHAMMAD): Of ourselves…….
(MR. BRANDON): We have seen also that the same laws govern the whole Universe, and that if man can understand some of the laws governing, as Mr. Muhammad said Himself, the tiniest atom, he will have a clue to those which govern the solar system to which they belong; but it would be very difficult to believe that our sun was part of an atom in the cell of a solid body.
(MR. EINSTEIN): Some scientists now claim that the outer-shell is denser than the planets that swing through it. So you see, we must reserve ideas about solidity until we are a little more informed.
(MR. BRANDON): The point that I am trying to make is that through visualizing our vast giant solar system, we can better understand the intimate relation in which the stars stand to each other.
(MR. EINSTEIN): Don’t worry Mr. Brandon. The astrologers make careful calculations of the chemical and spiritual influences set up be the continual changing of the relative positions of the planets and luminaries (Sun and Moon) which is man. So let us resolve our arguments concerning that study please.
(MR. BRANDON): Mr. Einstein, there’s a word that you are an atheist. Let me ask you this: Do you believe in God?
(MR. EINSTEIN): I believe in Spinoza’s god?
(MR. BRANDON): You did say Spinoza’s God?
(MR. MUHAMMAD): Yes he did, S.P.I.N.O.Z.A., but you see Mr. Einstein, and Mr. Brandon, Spinoza was a mere mortal, who was a philosopher in the 17th century. His full name was Baruch De Spinoza. he was a Dutch-Jewish philosopher who died at the age of 45 (1632-1677). His concept was that the Universe is formed of one substance, which is God, and the reality of mind and matter are the attributes, and that beings such as us are only changing shape in our composition. The concept (Spinozaism) is meritless. The whole theory collapses under its own weight of inaccuracy.
(MR. EINSTEIN): Excuse me Mr. Muhammad, but I am very…what you call cabalistic. I rely not on external experimentation, but on intellect, logic, and intuition. The logic of theory must stem from an inner coherence, not because external evidence makes it most logical over other theories.
(MR. BRANDON): Excuses me gentlemen, let me interrupt you two for a second. Mr. Einstein sir, tell me a little of Spinoza.
(MR. EINSTEIN): Though I cannot here expound the philosophy of Spinoza; I can speak briefly on its aspects: Spinoza attempted to lay the foundation for a new free society, ruled by law, yet also in accord with divine nature. On the one hand, Spinoza presented religion as a product of imagination; leading to piety. On the other hand, Spinoza held that reason and intuition led a man to a union with the source of all things, which is called the intellectual love of God. God, he said, is nature. God is whatever truly lives. In knowing Him we love Him and it is this knowledge of Him which makes man’s mind immortal.
(MR. MUHAMMAD): In those days, Mr. Einstein, that was a dangerous doctrine of immortality; and laid Spinoza open to misunderstanding and invectiveness.
(MR. EINSTEIN): Yet God Himself was ever present in all Spinoza’s writings; so much so, that one commentator did aptly called him a God intoxicated man.
(MR. MUHAMMAD): Your philosophy is just heritage. You are merely an abstraction of Spinoza, and indefinable expression of a creed, not universal reasoning and intuition as you state, and not a unity factor when understood completely. It is the illumination of the spiritual understanding which demonstrates the capacity of the soul, not of material senses, such revelation whatever constitutes and perpetuates harmony, enabling one to do good, but not evil (thus there is no unity in this intuition) you will…well, not you two, reach the perfect science of self when you are able to read the human mind. After this manner and discover the error you would destroy.
(MR. BRANDON): Mr. Muhammad, acquaintance with this science, as you say, will enable one to commune more largely with this spiritual understanding?
(MR. MUHAMMAD): I say it is a science, because it is! One second I referred to spirit as mind. and not like you two took it. To understand that mind is infinite, not bound by corporeality; not dependent on the ear and eye for sound or sight, nor upon the muscles and bones for locomotion, is a step forward. The mind science by which we discern man’s nature and existence. This true conception of the Blackman being God destroys the belief of spiritualism and Spinozaism at is very inception, for without the concession of immaterial personalities called spirits, Spiritualism has no more basis upon which to hold. Take the little Black Child for instance…….
(MR. BRANDON): Excuse me Mr. Muhammad, we must take a break at this time. We’ll be back in sixty seconds.
(MR. BRANDON): We’re back and this is Religion in Brief. My name is Keith Brandon your host and tonight we are talking with Mr. Fard Muhammad, and Mr. Albert Einstein. Mr. Muhammad, while we were taking that break you commented about certain expressions of the child, or little children, so to speak, and their….
(MR. MUHAMMAD): Excuse me sir, I said the little Black Child.
(MR. BRANDON): Oh, I’m sorry. The little Black Child, and their awareness process which leads up to adulthood.
(MR. EINSTEIN): Excuse me Mr. Brandon, one second Mr. Muhammad, sir, what is the difference between awareness and sensitivity.
(MR. MUHAMMAD): I wonder if there is any difference. You know, when you ask a question, what is important is to find out for yourself the truth of the matter and not merely accept what someone else says. So let us find out together what it is to be aware. When you observe you reactions to what people say to you and how your mind is always evaluating, judging, comparing, and condensing. This is all part of awareness, which begins on the surface and then goes deeper and deeper, but for most of you, awareness stops at a certain point. But unalike the Blackman, who is surely without doubt the True God of the Universe, Whose proper name is Allah, has no point of end to their awareness. For their brain capacity is 7-1/2 ounces of pure……
(MR. BRANDON): Did you say their brain capacity is 7-1/2 ounces?
(MR. MUHAMMAD): Yes, 7-1/2 ounces. The seven is ‘urim’, which is Light, the illumination of science, the only fit preparation for admission to the PRESENCE AND POWER OF THE MOST HIGH. The 1/2 is ‘Thummin’ (check you Bible–Exodus and Ezra) which is Extraordinary Perfection, which does not sleep; only alertness; and if you go into it still more deeply, you will find that there is no division between the person who is aware and the object of which he is aware. Now what does it mean to be sensitive? To be cognizant of color and form; to be considerate, good manners, listen attentively, without being bored, to everything that is said. So is there much difference between sensitivity and awareness? I don’t think so.
(MR. BRANDON): In dealing with facts that contradict some of the things you say, would you still say that the Colored man, the American Negro is truly God?
(MR. MUHAMMAD): The Colored man is your kind, *(pointing to Mr. Einstein), and the only contradiction I’ve heard in the last seconds was ‘American Negro’. Now the broadest facts array the most false lies against themselves; for they bring error from undercover. It requires courage to offer truth, courage such as my Brother, Jesus had. You see the higher Truth lifts her voice, the louder will error scream; until its inarticulate sound is forever silenced in oblivion.
(MR. EINSTEIN): You mentioned Jesus as your Brother, to my knowledge Jesus was a Jew. And if you view the Jesus’ achievement through materialistic eyes: seeing only an insignificant minority in possession of a little land and a few battalions; this will seem improbable. It will not seem improbable if a man discards the blinkers of prejudice and views the World not as a ‘thing’ but as an ‘Idea’! Then we may see that two-thirds of the civilized world is already governed by the ideas of the Jews. The ideas of Moses, Jesus, Paul, Spinoza, Marx, Frued. Will the World in the next two thousands years embrace the morality of the Torah, the social justice of the Prophets, the ethics of the Jewish Patriarchs? If so, then in the words of Isaiah; ‘There will be Peace! Peace to him that is far off, and Peace to him that is near’.
(MR. BRANDON): Yes Mr. Muhammad, what Mr. Einstein says I can understand. If Islam is your religion, how can it claim Jesus as one of its chief Prophets when Jesus was a Christian?
(MR. MUHAMMAD): I do not blame Mr. Einstein for his misled knowledge.For I am aware of the origin of this knowledge. Jesus was neither Christian nor Islamic. Christianity was not yet born when Jesus walked the earth, and Islam was not yet named by our Prophet at that time. Jesus taught Love, Freedom of error, Justice in terms of Equality. This making him the Messiah the people were talking about. This was then the political atmosphere into which he stepped, when he had chosen to reveal publicly that he was the Messiah. His destination was the Temple. His aim was to reform some of its practices. Not to destroy them, but reform them; for the Skunk Race still had another 1,914 years left to rule in their ghettoes and their darkness.
(MR. EINSTEIN): But the darkness was Light enough! If the Christians looked with derision upon the ridiculous ghetto Jews: The Jews looked with contempt upon those who jeered at them, namely Jesus! As a group they were still the most learned men in the East, Europe, excuse me….They were the only ethnic group in Europe having Universal Education. Into the ghetto they took with them their 3,500 years of cultural heritage, their Talmud, Old Testament, which illuminated their bleak physical existence with intellectual and religious comfort; and the veil of the Jewish women were a sign of the spiritual compensation given by their laws.
(MR. MUHAMMAD): I beg you pardon, Mr. Einstein, but I SPEAK THE TRUTH OF THE ORIGINAL MAN BEING GOD, hear Me when I say what is right! A veil sir, is a cover, it is a concealment, hiding hypocrisy! The Jewish women wore veils over their faces in token reverence and submission and in accordance with Pharisaic notions of the Judaic religion consisting mostly of rites and ceremonies. The motives and affections of a man were of little value; if he only appeared unto men to fast. The Great Nazarene, AS MEEK AS HE WAS MIGHTY, rebuked the hypocrite who offered long petitions for blessing upon material methods; but cloaked the crime latent in thought, which was ready to spring into action and hypocrisy. Allah’s Anointed One, Jesus. THE MARTYRDOM OF JESUS WAS THE CULMINATING SIN OF PHARISAISM. IT RENT THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE. IT REVEALED THE FALSE FOUNDATION AND SUPERSTRUCTURE OF THE SUPERFICIAL RELIGION. TORE FROM BIGOTRY AND SUPERSTITION THEIR COVERING AND OPENED THE SEPULCHRE WITH DIVINE SCIENCE OF ALLAH.
(MR. BRANDON): Well that concludes our broadcast for today, and I would like to thank both Mr. Einstein, and Mr. Muhammad for joining us here tonight.
(MR. EINSTEIN): Before we go Mr. Brandon, do I have a second?
(MR. BRANDON): Yes, a second.
(MR. EINSTEIN): Ah, Mr. Muhammad, do you speak Arabic? Would you know how to say my name in Arabic, Mr. Muhammad?
(MR. MUHAMMAD): Yes, in Arabic you would say Yacub!
(MR. BRANDON): Thank you folks for listening to Religion in Brief on station W.C.N.B. I’m your host, Keith Brandon, and we’ll be back two Sunday’s from today. Until then, may the Lord bless you. Good Night.
*Muhammad Speaks does not know how the author knows who The Saviour pointed to