text:
# [Ibogaine] Ibogaine Digest, Vol 49, Issue 5

Edward W edwardw at mtciep.com
Thu Jan 26 10:23:43 EST 2012

He does seem like an interesting person.  Like with most substances,
there are negative and positive.  Right now I'm deaing with a nephew who
we're trying to keep away from smoking Cannabis.  The only thing it's
done for him, is an increase in skipping high school and reducing
motiviation, unfortunally.  On the other side, I've seen some use
Cannabis for Tourette's Syndrome based tics.

___________________
Edward
edwardw at mtciep.com

On 1/25/2012 3:21 PM, SV wrote:
> I have written to Marc Emery in prison. He very kindly wrote me back a
> long letter. Im sure he isnt perfect, who is but i also do not believe
> he ever gave anyone drugs without their knowledge. As well, fucking
> someone anally does not make you a pervert. So what if he wants to
> tell what drugs he did with who and how that affected sexual
> performance? Im sure we've all noticed a difference in sex with
> certain drugs. Jesus, even Sasha and Ann Shulgin speak openly about
> the subject. Also who cares if he cheated on his wife or girlfriend?
> that doesnt make him a monster either. Ive cheated on my previous
> spouse too. Why is it that its seen as more of a crime for a man to do
> it than a woman?  One thing Ill say about Marc is that he has courage.
> And I respect that. I respect all he has done to further the case of
> marijuana legalization. And I respect that he took a deal which
> allowed Michelle and Greg to walk free. And I respect that he's doing
> his time in a manner anyone could be proud of.
>
> Peace
> Shiloh
>
>> beside,Marc is a pervert who would drug women to fuck them up their
>> ass and spread his sexual preference openly
> online, which drug can help which sexual act? who admitted to be
> cheating on his wives and girlfriends. when money is
> the most important religion these days, people look up to him no
> matter what.
>
> well,I do not expect an apology, not from a "prince". but for sure
> all those who wrote support letters to Marc have
> no idea who he really is.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <ibogaine-request at mindvox.com>
> To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 10:31 PM
> Subject: Ibogaine Digest, Vol 49, Issue 5
>
>
>> Send Ibogaine mailing list submissions to
>> ibogaine at mindvox.com
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://www.mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> ibogaine-request at mindvox.com
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> ibogaine-owner at mindvox.com
>>
>> than "Re: Contents of Ibogaine digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Underground? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (cbava108 at gmail.com)
>>   2. AZ plans to begin issuing licenses for pot dispensaries
>>      (DC from AZ)
>>   3. Pot predicament: Can marijuana use actually save lives on the
>>   4. Newt Gingrich's Letter Supporting Medical Marijuana (DC from AZ)
>>   5. Re: Pot predicament: Can marijuana use actually save lives on
>>   6. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Underground? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (Jeremy spence)
>>   7. Re: Transitions | Unethical "Underground" Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (David Ray)
>>   8. BUY NOW VIAGRA CIALIS !!! (NOW 20% OFF)
>>   9. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Underground? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (David Ray)
>>  10. Re: Transitions | Unethical "Underground" Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (Sara Glatt)
>>  11. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Underground? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (Sara Glatt)
>>  12. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (masterhermesbathory at gmail.com)
>>  13. Re: Transitions | Unethical "Underground" Ibogaine Detox
>>  14. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (cbava108 at gmail.com)
>>  15. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (David Ray)
>>  16. Re: Transitions | Unethical "Underground" Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (star ray)
>>  17. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (Vector Vector)
>>  18. [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? (Vector Vector)
>>  19. Re: Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d??? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Ce  nters (Sara Glatt)
>>  20. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (sister)
>>  21. Re: Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d??? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Ce  nters (Sara Glatt)
>>  22. Re: Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d??? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Ce  nters (Sister)
>>  23. Re: [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? (Mikki Lynne)
>>  24. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (cbava108 at gmail.com)
>>  25. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (Sister)
>>  26. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (Edward W)
>>  27. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (star ray)
>>  28. Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens (Edward W)
>>  29. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (star ray)
>>  30. Re: Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Centers (Edward W)
>>  31. Re: Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d?? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Ce nters (David Ray)
>>  32. Re: [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? (cal que)
>>  33. Re: Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens (Jim Hadey3)
>>  34. Re: Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens (buddy ellis)
>>  35. Re: Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens (sister)
>>  36. Re: Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens (Sid)
>>  37. Re: Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d?? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Ce nters (Sister)
>>  38. Re: Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d?? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Ce nters (Sid)
>>  39. Re: [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? (Mikki Lynne)
>>  40. Re: [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? (Sister)
>>  41. Re: Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens (star ray)
>>  42. Re: [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? (star ray)
>>  43. Re: Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d?? Ibogaine Detox
>>      Treatment Ce nters (David Ray)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:36:37 -0800
>> From: cbava108 at gmail.com
>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Underground? Ibogaine
>> Detox Treatment Centers
>> Message-ID:
>> <CABg8pxB8Ok6rZS+f=O05ROS6fpmCcMgNPwRqcNnAi+FqCiV6cA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> True, Emma but there is nothing in the post that indicates the patient
>> opted for an inexpensive provider rather that he was treated
>> at Transitions and the cost there is $7500. >> >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Emma Sachs <emma04406 at gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> There is no shame in trying to find inexpensive treatment either. Not >>> everyone has a lot of money. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 2:01 PM, <cbava108 at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Purportedly Transitions *is *a medical facility, my point is, how >>>> would >>>> the folks who received the frantic call from the wife know what >>>> went wrong? >>>> Apparently, the people who were called are in Cancun and the client >>>> was >>>> dropped at the San Ysidro point of entry, how would they know what >>>> went >>>> wrong? Beau Mason isn't a provider he's the financing behind >>>> Transitions >>>> and otherwise a salesman making remote referrals from the US. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> CB.... I guess I see it as slander when no information is given. >>>>> what >>>>> went wrong? Did anything really go wrong. Is all this only hearsay? >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Edward W <edwardw at mtciep.com> >>>>> *To:* The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 13, 2012 12:39 PM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Underground? >>>>> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>>>> >>>>> amazing$7500...didn't know that Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> ___________________
>>>>> Edward
>>>>> edwardw at mtciep.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/13/2012 10:35 AM, cbava108 at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> > If you read it twice it should've been clear that the post wasn't
>>>>> > authored by a "client" but by another clinic who received a call
>>>>> from
>>>>> > the patient's wife asking for advice. Why would you expect this
>>>>> > clinic
>>>>> > to know what went wrong at Transitions? And what in the post led
>>>>> you
>>>>> > to believe the "patient" was looking for an inexpensive
>>>>> treatment? I
>>>>> > believe Transitions charges $7500 per treatment, that doesn't seem >>>>> > cheap. Why would you consider the post slanderous? >>>>> > >>>>> > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 5:15 AM, sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com >>>>> > <mailto:sistereboga at yahoo.com>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > I had to read this article twice and still got nothing. For >>>>> all I >>>>> > know the guy didn't like the food? More information would of >>>>> been >>>>> > helpful. Nothing is said other then this guy is not in the >>>>> > Medical field? So what happen that was terribly wrong? Did he >>>>> > have a heart attack, resp. problems? what? did he just feel >>>>> > lethargy or never been thru wd before and has no idea what he >>>>> did >>>>> get? >>>>> > >>>>> > All I got from this article is that This Beau guy is not in the >>>>> > medical field. Something went wrong but not willing to share >>>>> > what it was? So much NOT said. What I don't understand is why >>>>> > post such a negative article without anything of substance other >>>>> > then this guy is not working with Solo? For all I know Dr Solo >>>>> > wrote this himself and just angry that another client got by him >>>>> > without paying 7500 to the doctor. >>>>> > >>>>> > I am not saying the Doctor does not have the right to charge >>>>> > whatever he wants. After all one does not go to medical school >>>>> > all those yrs to make minimal wage. But really... what went >>>>> > wrong, what happen, WHy did this guy need to go to the >>>>> hospital? >>>>> > IT says nothing but slander in my eyes. >>>>> > >>>>> > I do think that someone in the medical field needs to be present >>>>> > during the experience. After all, the sooner one recognizes >>>>> that >>>>> > someone is not compensating well, the sooner one acts the better >>>>> > the chances for the client. For all I know this person came to >>>>> > Iboga straight from Methadone or suboxone, or lied to the >>>>> provider >>>>> > about pass hx, lied about what meds he was on. Just no way to >>>>> > tell since so little was told of WHAT happen. So I think the >>>>> > article is crap. >>>>> > >>>>> > We all have our choices to make. NO one puts a gun to your head >>>>> > to participate in this experience. NO one held a gun to this >>>>> > persons head saying " NO, you cant pay 7000 in stead of 3000 >>>>> to a >>>>> > Non medical, non MD." If its important that a MD be present >>>>> then >>>>> > pay for it. Your choice. >>>>> > Also when one treats in MX, it is not underground. I have heard >>>>> > some terrible stories but no proof that it ever really >>>>> happen. I >>>>> > have heard that providers are cutting benzo doses in half and >>>>> > claiming that Iboga will take one thru Benzo detox safely. I >>>>> have >>>>> > heard that there are providers doing dope or addicted themselves >>>>> > as they provide after care to clients or worse providing tx >>>>> > themselves. BUt have I seen this... NOPE. I have even heard >>>>> that >>>>> > there are providers out there that sell body parts to the black >>>>> > market when addicts die. THat one really made me giggle. I >>>>> have >>>>> > been told by pass clients that there are folks out there in >>>>> the UG >>>>> > that are willing to treat three at once.... really, how can you >>>>> > watch three at once? >>>>> > >>>>> > I have seen clients come to Iboga and walk away gaining wt the >>>>> > first week after they receive this treatment, no WD symptoms but >>>>> > because they didn't walk away feeling like they did pre >>>>> addiction >>>>> > say it didn't work. Forget the fact that the addiction began >>>>> > 30yrs prior. Some actually think they are gonna feel like they >>>>> > are in their 20s when the spend from 20 to 50yrs of age doing >>>>> dope >>>>> > going from the couch to chair for 30ys? So again... what >>>>> > information did this article give anyone other then Beau is >>>>> not in >>>>> > the Medical field? Most providers I know are not in the Medical >>>>> > field. I don't think Sarah is a RN or LPN but I do believe she >>>>> > offers a safe and complete treatment. Not that I went there but >>>>> > so many have. I have had clients lie to me about their hx... >>>>> not >>>>> > mentioning that they are on Tegrotal or dilantin for a life time >>>>> > condition of seizures..fear it would knock them out of the >>>>> > treatment but then complain ......really folks, we are working >>>>> > with a group of folks that honesty is something that has been >>>>> > lost. I for one did not mention to Rocky that I had MS in >>>>> fear it >>>>> > would knock me out of the running. >>>>> > >>>>> > It is so important to talk\research the provider you choose. >>>>> Ask >>>>> > what they did\do for a living prior and what medical training >>>>> they >>>>> > may or may not have. Be sure that MONEY is not why you choose >>>>> > them but you choose them because you feel safe, they know what >>>>> > they are doing, talk to others they have treated. IF someone >>>>> > claims to be a RN, Lpn, practitioner, MD, mid wife or what ever >>>>> > google them, be sure they actually have a Medical license, where >>>>> > they attended Collage. So easy to do. Every one that has ever >>>>> > had or have a license it so easy to find on the net. IF its not >>>>> > there then I bet they don't have it and never has had it. I >>>>> know >>>>> > that anyone can look up my credentials. I have given my RN >>>>> > license number out for them to look up on the net. I went >>>>> two yrs >>>>> > pre medical... that did not make me a MD or even close to one. >>>>> > >>>>> > I am not saying the only quantified providers are in the medical >>>>> > field. I have worked with MDs that I would not let swab my dogs >>>>> > throat, Nurses that miss the boat when it comes to any >>>>> assessment >>>>> > skills. I have heard folks that went to one semester and >>>>> claim to >>>>> > be in the medical field. I have read on this forum those that >>>>> > are providing and not know how to treat a low bld pressure or >>>>> even >>>>> > what a resting BP\heart rate looks like. I also know that there >>>>> > are "clinics" that don't have a medical person with\in two miles >>>>> > of the clinic when the actual treatment is taken place but claim >>>>> > to have MDs working for the place. The word CLinic does not >>>>> mean >>>>> > what we are use to in the good ole USA. That word is use very >>>>> > loosely. That word does not mean a medical environment. For >>>>> me.. >>>>> > when I went for my treatment I could of cared less if I saw a >>>>> MD. >>>>> > I could of cared less that my providers had no medical >>>>> > background. What I did expect was that my provider not be >>>>> > addicted to dope themselves. Provide me with the safest they >>>>> were >>>>> > able. I could of care less if I died during the treatment, It >>>>> > would of been more humane then the slow death I was experiencing >>>>> > at my own hand. I paid for my after care. Sasha and Jessica >>>>> were >>>>> > my aftercare providers and I was very well taken care of. Sasha >>>>> > really stepped up to the plate when it came to food, Jessica was >>>>> > very in tune to my depression and gave me the time I needed to >>>>> > voice it. Rocky, Mary and Christ checked my BP more then I felt >>>>> > it was needed but they knew more then I did at the time... I >>>>> felt >>>>> > very safe during my process for sure. I paid for it, it wasn't >>>>> > free. It was my own fault that I didn't get boosters, I >>>>> didn't do >>>>> > enough research. >>>>> > >>>>> > So to those looking for a qualified provider... do your >>>>> research. >>>>> > Ask for numbers of those that they have treated. Talk to more >>>>> > then one. I can write a beautiful testimony on how Sister >>>>> treated >>>>> > me... even if I am Sister. LOL get the picture? That old >>>>> saying >>>>> > "you get what you pay for" I find so true. I feel I did pay the >>>>> > price for a real clinic, a MD present but even without all of >>>>> that >>>>> > I did walk away knowing that I had a chance to remain clean, >>>>> if I >>>>> > choose too. I still had a lot of work to do to help myself feel >>>>> > better. I had severe lethargy, chills/sweats and depression. I >>>>> > had to do the work myself to get thru this stage. Iboga did not >>>>> > make me grow up overnight either. Another thing I had to >>>>> work > thru. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > So... that article told me shit. Told me that the person >>>>> went for >>>>> > the cheapest he/she could find and wanted Iboga to fix >>>>> everything >>>>> > as many of us addicts do. As addicts, we blame others for our >>>>> > choices, we want to take every shortcut there is avail. We >>>>> do NOT >>>>> > want to suffer emotional or physical discomforts. I know this >>>>> > because I am a Addict and every addict I ever met has the same >>>>> > qualities. >>>>> > To me... that article sounds like a disgruntle client. Went for >>>>> > the cheapest tx he could find then not happy with the outcome. >>>>> > For all I know this person expected to feel how he did >>>>> before > his >>>>> > addiction began that could of been 30yrs prior. Never been thru >>>>> > CT or even a slow wean of his dope. Has no idea what being dope >>>>> > sick feels like. I am not taken up for thie Beau either. I >>>>> don't >>>>> > know, never met nor have I done any research on him. Could be a >>>>> > person that had no intention of getting clean but only wanted to >>>>> > lower his tolerance so they could continue to dope on for less >>>>> > money. I see the article as pure slander. >>>>> > >>>>> > Sent by someone who missed way too many English classes. >>>>> > >>>>> > On Jan 12, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Emma Sachs <emma04406 at gmail.com >>>>> > <mailto:emma04406 at gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> not the first bogus provider and it won't be the last. I had a >>>>> >> horrible experience on Mexico. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 9:19 PM, Diboga SanFilippo >>>>> >> <diboga4 at gmail.com <mailto:diboga4 at gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> *Transitions* | *Unethical* ?Underground? Ibogaine Detox >>>>> >> Treatment *...* >>>>> >> < >>>>> http://myibogaine.com/2012/transitions-unethical-%E2%80%9Cunderground%E2%80%9D-ibogaine-detox-treatment-centers/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=transitions-unethical-%25e2%2580%259cunderground%25e2%2580%259d-ibogaine-detox-treatment-centers >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >> >>>>> http://myibogaine.com/2012/*transitions*-*unethical*-?undergroun... >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands >>>>> ::::::: >> (]=- >>>>> >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: >>>>> [%][) >>>>> >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe >>>>> :::: >> (]=- >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>> >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: >>>>> [%][) >>>>> >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>> >>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120113/a487b4e4/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:12:01 -0500 (EST) >> From: DC from AZ <dcollier9 at q.com> >> To: Ibo List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: [Ibogaine] AZ plans to begin issuing licenses for pot >> dispensaries >> Message-ID: >> <2003568549.456371.1326489121370.JavaMail.root at md39.quartz.synacor.com> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> >> >> >> PHOENIX ? Gov. Jan Brewer has agreed to finally let the state issue >> licenses to operate medical marijuana dispensaries ? but not >> immediately. >> >> Brewer said today she will not pursue a lawsuit seeking a ruling of >> whether state employees who process those applications can be >> prosecuted under federal drug laws. A judge last month had thrown out >> that lawsuit but gave the governor a chance to fix the problems and >> refile it. >> >> That, Brewer said, will not happen. >> >> ?I have directed the Arizona Department of Health Services to begin >> accepting and processing dispensary applications,? Brewer said. But >> Brewer said no license will actually be issued until a state judge >> rules on a separate lawsuit challenging the rules the health >> department enacted governing who can ? and cannot ? operate a >> dispensary. >> >> That could take a while: An attorney who represents those challenging >> the rules has vowed to pursue the case. And whoever loses at the >> trial court is likely to appeal. >> >> But Joe Yuhas, spokesman for the Arizona Medical Marijuana >> Association, said Friday?s action is still a victory for those who >> convinced voters in 2010 to approve a medical marijuana law. >> >> That law allows those with certain specified medical conditions to >> get a recommendation from a doctor that they use marijuana. That >> recommendation entitles the person to obtain a card from the health >> department allowing them to obtain up to 2? ounces of marijuana every >> two weeks. >> >> So far the health department has issued nearly 18,000 such cards. >> >> The law also envisioned about 125 state-regulated nonprofit >> dispensaries where those with the cards could get their drugs. But >> Brewer blocked state health officials from even accepting >> applications after Dennis Burke, who was the U.S. Attorney for >> Arizona, refused to provide assurances that state workers who process >> those forms would not be prosecuted under federal laws which make it >> a crime to facilitate someone else getting marijuana. >> >> Brewer then filed suit in federal court asking Judge Susan Bolton to >> rule whether there was immunity. >> >> Last month, though, Bolton tossed the lawsuit, saying the court was >> not in the business of issuing advisory opinions. She said there was >> no evidence anyone would be prosecuted, pointing out that no federal >> prosecutor in any state with a medical marijuana law had brought >> charges against any public employee for processing paperwork. >> >> Bolton gave Brewer a chance to refile the case. But gubernatorial >> press aide Matthew Benson said that made no sense. >> >> ?At this point, from the governor?s perspective, we've kind of >> reached the end of the line in terms of legal remedies,? he said. >> Benson said it makes more sense to just let the law take effect as >> enacted by voters. >> >> Brewer stressed, though, she would pull the plug ?if I receive >> indication that state employees face prosecution due to their duties >> in administering this law.? >> >> The remaining lawsuit was filed on behalf of some would-be dispensary >> operators who found the rules locked them out of the process. >> >> One of those rules requires applicants to have been an Arizona >> resident for at least three years. Other restrictions include having >> filed a state income tax return for at least the last three years, >> and a prohibition against anyone who has filed for personal or >> corporate bankruptcy. >> >> The rules also allow the state to deny a license to anyone who has an >> overdue fine, unpaid child support or is not current on a student loan. >> >> Attorney Ty Taber said state Health Director Will Humble had no legal >> authority to impose those restrictions. >> >> Read more: >> http://azstarnet.com/news/state-and-regional/az-plans-to-begin-issuing-licenses-for-pot-dispensaries/article_f3e00632-3e13-11e1-ba29-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz1jNJ3Mdft >> >> >> -- >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Donzo >> >> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace." >> ______________________________________________________________ >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120113/42c4c5b2/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:14:57 -0500 (EST) >> From: DC from AZ <dcollier9 at q.com> >> To: Ibo List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: [Ibogaine] Pot predicament: Can marijuana use actually save >> lives on the road? >> Message-ID: >> <752800197.456410.1326489297778.JavaMail.root at md39.quartz.synacor.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> >> >> from here: >> >> http://www.insurancequotes.com/marijuana-traffic-safety/?a_aid=200027 >> >> >> >> >> Proponents of legalizing marijuana have long argued that >> criminalization of the drug causes more problems than it solves. For >> instance, taxpayers spend between$7.5 billion and $10 billion a year >> on arresting and prosecuting Americans for marijuana-related crimes. >> Supporters of legalized marijuana maintain that this money would be >> better spent cracking down on violent criminals. >> >> Now, pro-legalization backers have yet another point in their favor: >> According to a new study from the University of Colorado-Denver, the >> 16 states that have legalized medical marijuana have seen an average >> 9 percent drop in traffic deaths since their medical marijuana laws >> took effect. The study analyzed data from 1990 through 2009. >> >> ?We went into our research expecting the opposite effect,? says study >> co-author Daniel Rees , a professor of economics at the University of >> Colorado-Denver. ?We thought medical marijuana legalization would >> increase traffic fatalities. We were stunned by the results.? >> >> When it comes to traffic safety, can marijuana really save lives? >> >> Is marijuana an alcohol substitute? >> >> Is this a sign of the times? A new study ties legalization of medical >> marijuana to a decrease in fatal car crashes in 16 states. One >> possible reason: Motorists who are high tend to drive slowly. >> >> It?s long been known that alcohol is a primary contributor to deadly >> car crashes. According to estimates from the Insurance Institute for >> Highway Safety, drivers with a blood-alcohol level above 0.15 percent >> are 385 times as likely to be involved in a fatal crash as sober >> drivers are. In every state, the legal limit for driving while >> intoxicated is 0.08 percent. >> >> The University of Colorado-Denver study found that the increase in >> legal use of medical marijuana often leads to a reduction in alcohol >> consumption. The study cites data from the Beer Institute, an >> industry trade group, indicating that beer purchases go down by an >> average of 5 percent after medical marijuana laws are passed. In >> these states, the researchers theorize, some people are smoking >> marijuana rather than downing booze. >> >> A 2009 study from the University of California, Berkeley, backs up >> that finding. Four of every 10 patients at the university?s medical >> marijuana dispensary said they used marijuana to curb alcohol cravings. >> >> Are high drivers better than drunken drivers? >> >> The differences between drivers under the influence of alcohol and >> those who?ve smoked weed are stark, says Mason Tvert, executive >> director of the marijuana legalization advocacy group SAFER (Safer >> Alternative for Enjoyable Recreation). >> >> ?People who abuse alcohol take more risks, drive faster and are less >> likely to recognize that they?re impaired,? Tvert says. ?They feel >> like Superman when they?re drunk.? >> >> By contrast, motorists who?ve puffed pot ?drive slower, are less >> likely to take risks, and are more likely to recognize when they?re >> impaired and decide not to drive,? he says. >> >> Studies support Tvert?s view: A clinical trial conducted in Israel >> compared the simulated driving skills of people who?d consumed >> alcohol and those who?d smoked marijuana. The researchers found that >> alcohol caused these people to speed up their driving, while smoking >> marijuana prompted the drivers to slow down. An analysis by the U.S. >> Department of Transportation found marijuana rarely is the only drug >> found in the bodies of drivers who?ve died in car crashes. >> >> Is driving under the influence of marijuana safe? >> >> Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD) advocates against impaired >> driving of any form, and that includes smoking marijuana and getting >> behind the wheel. Emily Tompkins, MADD?s executive director for >> Colorado, says the group is keeping tabs on marijuana legalization >> and how it affects traffic safety. >> >> MADD isn?t interested in determining how much marijuana someone can >> consume to remain within a legal limit, but Tompkins urges people who >> smoke marijuana (medical or otherwise) to be aware of when their >> driving is impaired. Tompkins claims marijuana-impaired drivers often >> show their medical marijuana cards to police officers who pull them >> over, as though the card legally entitles them to drive under the >> influence of drugs ? which it does not. >> >> The U.S. Department of Transportation found that although the harm of >> marijuana for drivers is minimal compared with that of alcohol and >> other drugs, it may be dangerous in certain situations, such as when >> quick thinking is required or when a driver has combined marijuana >> with alcohol or other drugs. >> >> No one is advocating that driving while stoned is better than being >> alcohol- or drug-free, but experts agree that marijuana use while >> driving presents far less danger than many other drugs as well as >> alcohol. >> >> Meanwhile, more Americans appear to be embracing marijuana. A Gallup >> poll released in October 2011 found that a record-high 50 percent of >> Americans favor legalizing marijuana. In 2009, the National Survey on >> Drug Use and Health showed 16.7 million Americans age 12 and older >> had smoked pot at least once in the month before being surveyed. >> >> Could widespread legalization boost road safety? >> >> Dan Rees, an economics professor at the University of >> Colorado-Denver, says he was ?stunned? by the findings of the medical >> marijuana study. >> >> While the University of Colorado-Denver study presents striking >> evidence of marijuana?s effect on road safety, the research was >> limited to motorists who have access to medical marijuana. In some >> states, that?s a relatively significant portion of the population. In >> Montana, 3 percent of the state?s population has access to medical >> marijuana; in Colorado, it?s 2.5 percent. Actual percentages for >> marijuana use may be considerably higher than that, however. >> >> ?Under medical marijuana laws, caregivers and patients can grow >> marijuana, and there?s very little policing of this,? Rees says. >> >> Rees believes that authorized marijuana users often sell or give pot >> to others for recreational use. He says many of those recreational >> users probably are young adults ? a group who?s responsible for a >> disproportionately high number of alcohol-related car crashes. >> Marijuana advocacy group NORML says pot is the third most popular >> recreational ?drug? in the United States, behind alcohol and tobacco. >> >> Rees teamed up with D. Mark Anderson , assistant professor of >> economics at Montana State University, on the marijuana study. >> >> For now, medical marijuana is legal in Alaska, Arizona, California, >> Colorado, Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New >> Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington, as >> well as the District of Columbia. In those places, doctors prescribe >> marijuana to ease pain and suffering for patients with conditions >> like cancer. >> >> Federal law prohibits the growth and sale of marijuana for any >> purpose. Opponents of legalizing the drug maintain that marijuana is >> a ?gateway? to harder drugs like cocaine and heroin, and argue that >> the dangers posed by stoned drivers would rise. >> >> While widespread legalization of marijuana isn?t likely in the near >> future, such a move might have a dramatic effect on road safety if >> drivers ? particularly young adults ? flock to marijuana instead of >> alcohol to get buzzed. >> >> ?When you see fewer traffic accidents in every state that legalizes >> medical marijuana, that?s strong proof,? Rees says. >> >> -- >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Donzo >> >> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace." >> ______________________________________________________________ >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120113/39c84599/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:24:59 -0500 (EST) >> From: DC from AZ <dcollier9 at q.com> >> To: Ibo List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: [Ibogaine] Newt Gingrich's Letter Supporting Medical >> Marijuana >> Message-ID: >> <1090207155.456482.1326489899030.JavaMail.root at md39.quartz.synacor.com> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> The following letter by Rep. Newt Gingrich, former Speaker of the >> House, in support of medical access to marijuana originally appeared >> in the March 19, 1982 issue of the Journal of the American Medical >> Association (JAMA). >> >> To the Editor, >> >> The American Medical Association's Council on Scientific Affairs >> should be commended for its report, "Marijuana: Its Health Hazards >> and Therapeutic Potential" (1981;246:1823). Not only does the report >> outline evidence of marijuana's potential harms, but it distinguishes >> this concern from the legitimate issue of marijuana's important >> medical benefits. All too often the hysteria that attends public >> debate over marijuana's social abuse compromises a clear appreciation >> for this critical distinction. >> >> Since 1978, 32 states have abandoned the federal prohibition to >> recognize legislatively marijuana's important medical properties. >> Federal law, however, continues to define marijuana as a drug "with >> no accepted medical use," and federal agencies continue to prohibit >> physician-patient access to marijuana. This outdated federal >> prohibition is corrupting the intent of the state laws and depriving >> thousands of glaucoma and cancer patients of the medical care >> promised them by their state legislatures. >> >> On September 16, 1981, Representatives Stewart McKinney and I >> introduced legislation designed to end bureaucratic interference in >> the use of marijuana as a medicant. >> >> We believe licensed physicians are competent to employ marijuana, and >> patients have a right to obtain marijuana legally, under medical >> supervision, from a regulated source. The medical prohibition does >> not prevent seriously ill patients from employing marijuana; it >> simply deprives them of medical supervision and denies them access to >> a regulated medical substance. Physicians are often forced to choose >> between their ethical responsibilities to the patient and their legal >> liabilities to federal bureaucrats. >> >> Representative McKinney and I hope the Council will take a close and >> careful look at this issue. Federal policies do not reflect a factual >> or balanced assessment of marijuana's use as a medicant. The Council, >> by thoroughly investigating the available materials, might well >> discover that its own assessment of marijuana's therapeutic value >> has, in the past, been more than slightly shaded by federal policies >> that are less than neutral. >> >> Newt Gingrich >> House of Representatives >> Washington, DC >> >> >> >> >> http://norml.org/library/medical-marijuana-reports/item/newt-gingrich-s-letter-supporting-medical-marijuana >> >> >> >> >> >> quoted by this article: >> >> http://www.mediaite.com/tv/gary-johnson-newt-gingrich-supported-death-penalty-for-marijuana-even-though-he-smokes-marijuana/ >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Donzo >> >> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace." >> ______________________________________________________________ >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120113/1f205769/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:35:32 -0500 >> From: Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Pot predicament: Can marijuana use actually >> save lives on the road? >> Message-ID: >> <CAEoZqz3i+PpX3MZWL6PjLrWNxhFzfAWvXZHv7-XKMgiaa4e6bQ at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> Hi DC, >> >> You say that the G spends 10 to 17 billion a year on weed >> enforcement. OK, >> just the other day they had on regular MSM a news report that weed >> was far >> less harmful to your lungs - far less, they even showed the graph. >> >> Now here is the problem. The government does not make mistakes, see. >> They >> are very intelligent, honest and moral, far more so than regular folks. >> Now would you expect them to admit they were wrong and spent billions on >> the war on drugs over the last 40 years or so? Would you expect them to >> admit that by putting a guy in jail for selling weed and perhaps >> destroying >> the marriage and maybe the kids going into foster care and all that did >> more harm than good? Would you expect them to admit that Refer >> Madness was >> not a true story? They had all this information many years ago. >> Maybe the >> alcohol companies do not want to lose 5% of their sales in states >> where it >> is legal. >> >> Yeah, I am sure there are other reasons too. Like because Big >> Brother says >> so - that's why, Ida Know. Oh, if ever it would come about that no >> coke or >> smack was getting into the country they would say the war is over and we >> don't need the DEA or cut back 80 percent so there will always be dope >> getting through, it's called job security. And it is a lot of fun >> busting >> down doors. >> >> As far as DWI on pot??? There is a lot of money in DWIs They used >> to have >> a commercial where a guy was walking around chained to a keg of beer and >> they said a DWI can cost ya$6000.  Now two months later they have a
>> commercial saying it will cost ya about $10,000. In other words they >> almost doubled it, talk about inflation. Now all the ten grands add up, >> forget about the facts they accidents went down. >> >> Best, >> >> - JIM >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 4:14 PM, DC from AZ <dcollier9 at q.com> wrote: >> >>> from here: >>> >>> http://www.insurancequotes.com/marijuana-traffic-safety/?a_aid=200027 >>> >>> >>> Proponents of legalizing marijuana have long argued that >>> criminalization >>> of the drug causes more problems than it solves. For instance, >>> taxpayers >>> spend between$7.5 billion and $10 billion a year on arresting and >>> prosecuting Americans for marijuana-related crimes. Supporters of >>> legalized >>> marijuana maintain that this money would be better spent cracking >>> down on >>> violent criminals. >>> >>> Now, pro-legalization backers have yet another point in their favor: >>> According to a new study from the University of Colorado-Denver, the 16 >>> states that have legalized medical >>> marijuana<http://www.insurancequotes.com/health-insurance-medical-marijuana/>have >>> seen an average 9 percent drop in traffic deaths since their medical >>> marijuana laws took effect. The study analyzed data from 1990 >>> through 2009. >>> >>> ?We went into our research expecting the opposite effect,? says study >>> co-author Daniel >>> Rees<http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/CLAS/Departments/economics/Faculty/tenure-track/Pages/DanielRees.aspx>, >>> a professor of economics at the University of Colorado-Denver. ?We >>> thought >>> medical marijuana legalization would increase traffic fatalities. We >>> were >>> stunned by the results.? >>> >>> When it comes to traffic safety, can marijuana really save lives? >>> >>> *Is marijuana an alcohol substitute?* >>> Is this a sign of the times? A new study ties legalization of >>> medical >>> marijuana to a decrease in fatal car crashes in 16 states. One possible >>> reason: Motorists who are high tend to drive slowly. >>> >>> It?s long been known that alcohol is a primary contributor to deadly >>> car >>> crashes. According to estimates from the Insurance Institute for >>> Highway >>> Safety, drivers with a blood-alcohol level above 0.15 percent are >>> 385 times >>> as likely to be involved in a fatal crash as sober drivers are. In >>> every >>> state, the legal limit for driving while >>> intoxicated<http://www.insurancequotes.com/auto-insurance-dui/>is >>> 0.08 percent. >>> >>> The University of Colorado-Denver study found that the increase in >>> legal >>> use of medical marijuana often leads to a reduction in alcohol >>> consumption. >>> The study cites data from the Beer Institute, an industry trade group, >>> indicating that beer purchases go down by an average of 5 percent after >>> medical marijuana laws are passed. In these states, the researchers >>> theorize, some people are smoking marijuana rather than downing booze. >>> >>> A 2009 study from the University of California, Berkeley, backs up that >>> finding. Four of every 10 patients at the university?s medical >>> marijuana >>> dispensary >>> <http://www.insurancequotes.com/insurance-medical-marijuana/>said >>> they used marijuana to curb alcohol cravings. >>> >>> *Are high drivers better than drunken drivers?* >>> >>> The differences between drivers under the influence of alcohol and >>> those >>> who?ve smoked weed are stark, says Mason Tvert, executive director >>> of the >>> marijuana legalization advocacy group SAFER >>> <http://www.saferchoice.org/>(Safer Alternative for Enjoyable >>> Recreation). >>> >>> ?People who abuse alcohol take more risks, drive faster and are less >>> likely to recognize that they?re impaired,? Tvert says. ?They feel like >>> Superman when they?re drunk.? >>> >>> By contrast, motorists who?ve puffed pot ?drive slower, are less >>> likely to >>> take risks, and are more likely to recognize when they?re impaired and >>> decide not to drive,? he says. >>> >>> Studies support Tvert?s view: A clinical trial conducted in Israel >>> compared the simulated driving skills of people who?d consumed >>> alcohol and >>> those who?d smoked marijuana. The researchers found that alcohol caused >>> these people to speed up their driving, while smoking marijuana >>> prompted >>> the drivers to slow down. An analysis by the U.S. Department of >>> Transportation found marijuana rarely is the only drug found in the >>> bodies >>> of drivers who?ve died in car crashes. >>> >>> *Is driving under the influence of marijuana safe?* >>> >>> Mothers Against Drunk Driving <http://madd.org/> (MADD) advocates >>> against >>> impaired driving of any form, and that includes smoking marijuana and >>> getting behind the wheel. Emily Tompkins, MADD?s executive director for >>> Colorado, says the group is keeping tabs on marijuana legalization >>> and how >>> it affects traffic safety. >>> >>> MADD isn?t interested in determining how much marijuana someone can >>> consume to remain within a legal limit, but Tompkins urges people >>> who smoke >>> marijuana (medical or otherwise) to be aware of when their driving is >>> impaired. Tompkins claims marijuana-impaired drivers often show their >>> medical marijuana cards to police officers who pull them over, as >>> though >>> the card legally entitles them to drive under the influence of drugs ? >>> which it does not. >>> >>> The U.S. Department of Transportation found that although the harm of >>> marijuana for drivers is minimal compared with that of alcohol and >>> other >>> drugs, it may be dangerous in certain situations, such as when quick >>> thinking is required or when a driver has combined marijuana with >>> alcohol >>> or other drugs. >>> >>> No one is advocating that driving while stoned is better than being >>> alcohol- or drug-free, but experts agree that marijuana use while >>> driving >>> presents far less danger than many other drugs as well as alcohol. >>> >>> Meanwhile, more Americans appear to be embracing marijuana. A Gallup >>> poll<http://www.gallup.com/poll/150149/record-high-americans-favor-legalizing-marijuana.aspx>released >>> in October 2011 found that a record-high 50 percent of Americans >>> favor legalizing marijuana. In 2009, the National Survey on Drug Use >>> and >>> Health showed 16.7 million Americans age 12 and older had smoked pot at >>> least once in the month before being surveyed. >>> >>> *Could widespread legalization boost road safety?* >>> Dan Rees, an economics professor at the University of >>> Colorado-Denver, >>> says he was ?stunned? by the findings of the medical marijuana study. >>> >>> While the University of >>> Colorado-Denver<http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/newsroom/newsreleases/Pages/Study-shows-medical-marijuana-laws-reduce-traffic-deaths.aspx>study >>> presents striking evidence of marijuana?s effect on road safety, the >>> research was limited to motorists who have access to medical >>> marijuana. In >>> some states, that?s a relatively significant portion of the >>> population. In >>> Montana, 3 percent of the state?s population has access to medical >>> marijuana; in Colorado, it?s 2.5 percent. Actual percentages for >>> marijuana >>> use may be considerably higher than that, however. >>> >>> ?Under medical marijuana laws, caregivers and patients can grow >>> marijuana, >>> and there?s very little policing of this,? Rees says. >>> >>> Rees believes that authorized marijuana users often sell or give pot to >>> others for recreational use. He says many of those recreational users >>> probably are young adults ? a group who?s responsible for a >>> disproportionately high number of alcohol-related car crashes. >>> Marijuana >>> advocacy group NORML says pot is the third most popular recreational >>> ?drug? >>> in the United States, behind alcohol and tobacco. >>> >>> Rees teamed up with D. Mark Anderson <http://www.dmarkanderson.com/>, >>> assistant professor of economics at Montana State University, on the >>> marijuana study. >>> >>> For now, medical marijuana is legal in Alaska, Arizona, California, >>> Colorado, Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New >>> Jersey, >>> New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington, as well as >>> the >>> District of Columbia. In those places, doctors prescribe marijuana >>> to ease >>> pain and suffering for patients with conditions like cancer. >>> >>> Federal law prohibits the growth and sale of marijuana for any purpose. >>> Opponents of legalizing the drug maintain that marijuana is a >>> ?gateway? to >>> harder drugs like cocaine and heroin, and argue that the dangers >>> posed by >>> stoned drivers would rise. >>> >>> While widespread legalization of marijuana isn?t likely in the near >>> future, such a move might have a dramatic effect on road safety if >>> drivers >>> ? particularly young adults ? flock to marijuana instead of alcohol >>> to get >>> buzzed. >>> >>> ?When you see fewer traffic accidents in every state that legalizes >>> medical marijuana, that?s strong proof,? Rees says. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Donzo >>> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace." >>> ______________________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120113/02b54d8a/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 01:57:23 -0600 >> From: Jeremy spence <jlspence12 at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Underground? Ibogaine >> Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: <EA3A1FC5-8DB3-4F89-BBE4-F549D58B0891 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> >> It can happen either way. >> >> but Indo make sure any one >> I even so much as pass along info, if the possible out comes "all of >> them!" >> >> I'm for, myself >> Test dosing.. >> More >> But that's "me" >> That just my self, for my own safety. >> >> >> Jeremy Lee Spece >> >> >> On Jan 13, 2012, at 1:32 AM, "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> wrote: >> >>>> *Transitions* | *Unethical* ?Underground? Ibogaine Detox Treatment >>>> *...*<http://myibogaine.com/2012/transitions-unethical-%E2%80%9Cunderground%E2%80%9D-ibogaine-detox-treatment-centers/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=transitions-unethical-%25e2%2580%259cunderground%25e2%2580%259d-ibogaine-detox-treatment-centers> >>>> >>>> http://myibogaine.com/2012/*transitions*-*unethical*-?undergroun... >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>> >>> >>> This is bullshit! what is underground, when everybody knows? what >>> is unethical? >>> most of the people who have died during the treatment died in a >>> medical facility. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 22:55:31 +1100 >> From: David Ray <trees.and.rain at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical "Underground" Ibogaine >> Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: >> <CAD_M9k2xoaQyO3Da1GCLTOOQN0QCdcLv7d_OEoF2crJmXBr+Aw at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> There is something horribly wrong with the angry abuse directed >> against wholly responsible behaviour. One individual screws up, >> advertises using the name of another group, sets out to mislead and >> acts in a dangerously irresponsible manner. Anyone who is aware of >> this behaviour and doesn't publicise it is the one doing harm. I'm >> afraid I still go with the knowledge. Deborah Mash said ibogaine >> should "never ever" be used outside of a hospital. This limits the >> options. But Howard Lotsof said that ibogaine treatments should take >> place in a hospital environment with medically qualified staff >> whenever it is possible. In the real world you have to weigh up the >> risk, which rises in proportion to the lack of experience. There are >> two relevant types of experience. One is experience in administering >> the treatment. The other is general medical knowledge. Often those >> experienced in treatments have little medical experience. Most >> medical people know little about ibogaine treatments. It seems to be >> stating the bleeding obvious that the best situation is one that >> involves medical knowledge in combination with ibogaine experience and >> compassion and responsibility round this out. In the real world >> compromises need to be made and risks taken. But assessing and >> accepting a risk is not the same as eliminating a risk. And failing to >> report and criticise errors, deliberate or accidental, means they will >> keep getting repeated. >> >> On 13/01/2012, Kevin Walker <kevin at ibogainesa.co.za> wrote: >>> Sara, >>> >>> I don't think it is entire bullshit as you have claimed! I think on >>> this >>> very platform we have discussed this before, you claim that most >>> deaths have >>> been those that have been done in clinic's. Yes death has occurred in >>> clinic's and we all aware of them, as they are recorded deaths, what >>> about >>> all those that are unrecorded the underground, those done in the >>> bush etc >>> etc. I personally have heard of a treatment done in a motel and when >>> things >>> got out of hand the so called provider just left the patient /client >>> and >>> disassociated themselves to the events around that. >>> I think that there are many more deaths than those that have been >>> recorded, >>> these have been over looked and or discounted due to a so called >>> secondary >>> event. >>> >>> Come on lets deal with the real world ! >>> >>> Regards. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >>> [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] On >>> Behalf Of Sara Glatt >>> Sent: 13 January 2012 09:33 >>> To: The Ibogaine List >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical "Underground" >>> Ibogaine Detox >>> Treatment Centers >>> >>>> *Transitions* | *Unethical* "Underground" Ibogaine Detox Treatment >>>> >>> *...*<http://myibogaine.com/2012/transitions-unethical-%E2%80%9Cunderground% >>> >>> E2%80%9D-ibogaine-detox-treatment-centers/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm >>> >>> _campaign=transitions-unethical-%25e2%2580%259cunderground%25e2%2580%259d-ib >>> >>> ogaine-detox-treatment-centers> >>>> http://myibogaine.com/2012/*transitions*-*unethical*-"undergroun... >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>> >>> >>> This is bullshit! what is underground, when everybody knows? what is >>> unethical? >>> most of the people who have died during the treatment died in a medical >>> facility. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 8 >> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 09:13:08 +0100 >> From: "NOW 20% OFF" <wpgtg at ymail.com> >> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com >> Subject: [Ibogaine] BUY NOW VIAGRA CIALIS !!! >> Message-ID: <20120113081310.14620.qmail at bmmch.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> USPS - Fast Delivery Shipping 1-4 day USA >> Best quality drugs >> Worldwide shipping >> Professional packaging >> 100% guarantee on delivery >> Best prices in the market >> Discounts for returning customers >> FDA approved productas >> 350000+ satisfied customers >> >> http://lmgkg.ostpills.ru >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 9 >> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:41:12 +1100 >> From: David Ray <trees.and.rain at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Underground? Ibogaine >> Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: >> <CAD_M9k3_sOjV+08vRwr0XU5RJj5r+Ke5fqTXsaC3T-o=1kwUpg at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >> published information. If the users in forums like this are unwilling >> to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >> problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements. It seems >> like some people like it to be a jungle. Like on the streets. If >> something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it out. That's >> your screw-up. Fuck you." But how does a junkie check things out if >> not through forums like this. To me the warning is plain and direct. >> It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down. It does >> not guess. It provides information that is known to the complainer. >> Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about what they >> are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read. There is >> no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >> ibogaine providers as in any field. If you want it to get better you >> try to weed the bad people out. If you knew a dealer was selling crap >> product wouldn't you tell your friends? Some of the abuse here sounds >> exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys. Why shit on us. >> Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the good guys. >> What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag? We're still the >> good guys. Leave us alone. And anyway, he was asking to be bashed. >> He's a junkie." There is plenty of information in the warning. The >> fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant. They had >> enough information to know that something is very wrong and they gave >> a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented itself as >> having an association with them via one of their doctors. Obviously >> they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >> facility. It's not their role to investigate further. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 10 >> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 13:49:42 +0100 >> From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical "Underground" Ibogaine >> Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: >> <f96985d4b1b1e3e1824105348d2c7f9f.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> >> >> >> We all know that Iboga has been use before we were born and still is, as >> a sacrament and a healing plant. >> >> the Medical Doctors do not believe in the plant spirit and in the >> teaching >> of the plants, in the ability to chanal enrgies and knowledege. they >> would laugh at a bush doctor, they have no >> interest in healing energies. >> I have seen people heal spontaniously after the iboga session, >> something which is medically impossible within 3 days. >> >> >> >> the only risks is if the person has a heart problems which the test >> did not find or another condition (Cancer) which >> he did not know about before the treatment, or if the person uses >> drugs secretly without letting anyone know during >> the treatment. >> >> if the person follows a good diet and has no heart problem then there >> are no more risk then taking an aspirin. >> >> when you get over the age of 18 you should be able to make your own >> choice. >> >> Sara >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> There is something horribly wrong with the angry abuse directed >>> against wholly responsible behaviour. One individual screws up, >>> advertises using the name of another group, sets out to mislead and >>> acts in a dangerously irresponsible manner. Anyone who is aware of >>> this behaviour and doesn't publicise it is the one doing harm. I'm >>> afraid I still go with the knowledge. Deborah Mash said ibogaine >>> should "never ever" be used outside of a hospital. This limits the >>> options. But Howard Lotsof said that ibogaine treatments should take >>> place in a hospital environment with medically qualified staff >>> whenever it is possible. In the real world you have to weigh up the >>> risk, which rises in proportion to the lack of experience. There are >>> two relevant types of experience. One is experience in administering >>> the treatment. The other is general medical knowledge. Often those >>> experienced in treatments have little medical experience. Most >>> medical people know little about ibogaine treatments. It seems to be >>> stating the bleeding obvious that the best situation is one that >>> involves medical knowledge in combination with ibogaine experience and >>> compassion and responsibility round this out. In the real world >>> compromises need to be made and risks taken. But assessing and >>> accepting a risk is not the same as eliminating a risk. And failing to >>> report and criticise errors, deliberate or accidental, means they will >>> keep getting repeated. >>> >>> On 13/01/2012, Kevin Walker <kevin at ibogainesa.co.za> wrote: >>>> Sara, >>>> >>>> I don't think it is entire bullshit as you have claimed! I think on >>>> this >>>> very platform we have discussed this before, you claim that most >>>> deaths have >>>> been those that have been done in clinic's. Yes death has occurred in >>>> clinic's and we all aware of them, as they are recorded deaths, >>>> what about >>>> all those that are unrecorded the underground, those done in the >>>> bush etc >>>> etc. I personally have heard of a treatment done in a motel and >>>> when things >>>> got out of hand the so called provider just left the patient >>>> /client and >>>> disassociated themselves to the events around that. >>>> I think that there are many more deaths than those that have been >>>> recorded, >>>> these have been over looked and or discounted due to a so called >>>> secondary >>>> event. >>>> >>>> Come on lets deal with the real world ! >>>> >>>> Regards. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >>>> [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] On >>>> Behalf Of Sara Glatt >>>> Sent: 13 January 2012 09:33 >>>> To: The Ibogaine List >>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical "Underground" >>>> Ibogaine Detox >>>> Treatment Centers >>>> >>>>> *Transitions* | *Unethical* "Underground" Ibogaine Detox Treatment >>>>> >>>> *...*<http://myibogaine.com/2012/transitions-unethical-%E2%80%9Cunderground% >>>> >>>> E2%80%9D-ibogaine-detox-treatment-centers/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm >>>> >>>> _campaign=transitions-unethical-%25e2%2580%259cunderground%25e2%2580%259d-ib >>>> >>>> ogaine-detox-treatment-centers> >>>>> http://myibogaine.com/2012/*transitions*-*unethical*-"undergroun... >>>>> >>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This is bullshit! what is underground, when everybody knows? what is >>>> unethical? >>>> most of the people who have died during the treatment died in a >>>> medical >>>> facility. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 11 >> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:25:35 +0100 >> From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Underground? Ibogaine >> Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: >> <690a2ec5ab887da1eb7249dcb2a2fb63.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> >> there is a lot of wrong info. on the internet,which does not give >> credits to the spirit of the Iboga plant. >> >> YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IBOGA IS NOT MORE DANGEROUS THEN AN ASPIRIN! >> >> YOU NEED TO READ THE USER MANUAL. >> >> the are medical Doctors who are giving to people much to small amount >> of Ibogaine >> and after 36 hours are finished and they are still in withdrawals, >> they would get >> some of their money back after being told that the Ibogaine treatment >> did not work for them. >> that a person is a Doctor does not mean he cares more about the addict. >> >> the warning should be sign up with their name and tel. no. >> >> "a jungle" is the Catholic church? the school system? the health system? >> the political system? the banking system? the law system?the >> economical system? the ecological system? the solar system? >> and the lies of the media and of those who want us to believe they >> KNOW better. >> >> life is a transformation of energy which is not in human control. you >> can learn to have more awareness of your body >> and soul and gain some control on your Qi level, health needs. >> >> discrediting people without knowing the facts first hand is bullshit! >> >> Sara >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >>> published information. If the users in forums like this are unwilling >>> to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >>> problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements. It seems >>> like some people like it to be a jungle. Like on the streets. If >>> something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it out. That's >>> your screw-up. Fuck you." But how does a junkie check things out if >>> not through forums like this. To me the warning is plain and direct. >>> It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down. It does >>> not guess. It provides information that is known to the complainer. >>> Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about what they >>> are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read. There is >>> no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >>> ibogaine providers as in any field. If you want it to get better you >>> try to weed the bad people out. If you knew a dealer was selling crap >>> product wouldn't you tell your friends? Some of the abuse here sounds >>> exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys. Why shit on us. >>> Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the good guys. >>> What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag? We're still the >>> good guys. Leave us alone. And anyway, he was asking to be bashed. >>> He's a junkie." There is plenty of information in the warning. The >>> fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant. They had >>> enough information to know that something is very wrong and they gave >>> a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented itself as >>> having an association with them via one of their doctors. Obviously >>> they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >>> facility. It's not their role to investigate further. >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 12 >> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:03:40 +0000 >> From: masterhermesbathory at gmail.com >> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: >> <580712102-1326549820-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-278097184- at b16.c30.bise6.blackberry> >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> True that! >> Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. >> Envoy? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r?seau de >> Bell. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >> Sender: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:25:35 >> To: The Ibogaine List<ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Reply-To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >> Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun >> d? Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> >> there is a lot of wrong info. on the internet,which does not give >> credits to the spirit of the Iboga plant. >> >> YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IBOGA IS NOT MORE DANGEROUS THEN AN ASPIRIN! >> >> YOU NEED TO READ THE USER MANUAL. >> >> the are medical Doctors who are giving to people much to small amount >> of Ibogaine >> and after 36 hours are finished and they are still in withdrawals, >> they would get >> some of their money back after being told that the Ibogaine treatment >> did not work for them. >> that a person is a Doctor does not mean he cares more about the addict. >> >> the warning should be sign up with their name and tel. no. >> >> "a jungle" is the Catholic church? the school system? the health system? >> the political system? the banking system? the law system?the >> economical system? the ecological system? the solar system? >> and the lies of the media and of those who want us to believe they >> KNOW better. >> >> life is a transformation of energy which is not in human control. you >> can learn to have more awareness of your body >> and soul and gain some control on your Qi level, health needs. >> >> discrediting people without knowing the facts first hand is bullshit! >> >> Sara >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >>> published information. If the users in forums like this are unwilling >>> to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >>> problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements. It seems >>> like some people like it to be a jungle. Like on the streets. If >>> something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it out. That's >>> your screw-up. Fuck you." But how does a junkie check things out if >>> not through forums like this. To me the warning is plain and direct. >>> It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down. It does >>> not guess. It provides information that is known to the complainer. >>> Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about what they >>> are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read. There is >>> no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >>> ibogaine providers as in any field. If you want it to get better you >>> try to weed the bad people out. If you knew a dealer was selling crap >>> product wouldn't you tell your friends? Some of the abuse here sounds >>> exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys. Why shit on us. >>> Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the good guys. >>> What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag? We're still the >>> good guys. Leave us alone. And anyway, he was asking to be bashed. >>> He's a junkie." There is plenty of information in the warning. The >>> fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant. They had >>> enough information to know that something is very wrong and they gave >>> a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented itself as >>> having an association with them via one of their doctors. Obviously >>> they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >>> facility. It's not their role to investigate further. >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >> >> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 13 >> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 11:04:48 -0500 >> From: Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical "Underground" Ibogaine >> Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: >> <CAEoZqz107cAqzfg4ZTpZZVq-93KWwMXi+gV1+orZ8cyWbDaOLw at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Hi All, >> >> I am not getting into the subject of Beau but addressing the part >> where the >> person should be in a hospital. Think for a minute most addicts do not >> have money for the Ibo so how are they going to go to a hospital?? >> There >> is no insurance anywhere that will pay for a Ibo detox so the dude or >> chick >> will need 10 grand and air fair at the very least. Does anybody know >> how >> much Marsh charged, just curious? >> >> Addiction can be so bad and cause so much pain and suffering a person >> may >> very well do a DIY with a person checking on them when necessary and >> figure >> it's do or die. A person buys the detox that they can afford. See, >> they >> can not buy a detox that they can not afford for they do not have the >> money. >> >> Now I know this one person Very well and he did 4 DIYs - two with >> extract >> and two with HCL and ta ta he's still alive - and he is off opiates. >> Yeah >> the fourth time was a charm, on man it was so wonderful. He told me >> how it >> cracked his head for it changed his eating habits - very little sugar, >> Pepsi, coffee and various bad stuff. Now there is no way in hell this >> wonderful person that I know could afford to go to a hospital four >> times. >> Oh man could you imagine how you would feel if you went to a hospital >> and >> spent 10 grand and started using a week after you got out and were >> addicted >> 10 days later?? Oh man the depression alone could kill ya. >> >> Hey - they told ya on TV just say no to drugs, your mom and dad told ya >> don't use drugs (I know with the younger folks they sometimes had >> addicts >> for moms and dads) you knew the stuff was addictive for you seen >> addicts in >> bad shape and you should of had better sense but ya didn't use it, >> right? >> Yeah, I know it make things so much nicer, if feels so good but ....... >> well that comes to an end and things go bad. Now, what ya gonna do?? >> What >> can ya do?? Well that very good buddy got 1.5 gram and did it in his >> own >> house and is alive and much better and clean from opiates. There is >> no way >> he could of gone to a hospital four times. >> >> Most people relapse in US drug detox places. The same may go for Ibo >> detox >> places if they do not get some kind of help and get new friends etc. >> And >> it don't work the first time. Ok what am I saying - if life is so >> bad and >> your addiction is causing you problems and you think I will do a EXP and >> either live free or die trying. Well you got that right and I wish >> ya the >> best. The odds are 300 to one and maybe better if you do not use drugs >> before or during treatment. If you have no money what can ya do?? >> >> You get the detox you can afford. >> >> Best. >> >> - JIM >> >> On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 7:49 AM, Sara Glatt <sara119 at xs4all.nl> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> We all know that Iboga has been use before we were born and still >>> is, as >>> a sacrament and a healing plant. >>> >>> the Medical Doctors do not believe in the plant spirit and in the >>> teaching >>> of the plants, in the ability to chanal enrgies and knowledege. they >>> would >>> laugh at a bush doctor, they have no >>> interest in healing energies. >>> I have seen people heal spontaniously after the iboga session, >>> something >>> which is medically impossible within 3 days. >>> >>> >>> >>> the only risks is if the person has a heart problems which the test did >>> not find or another condition (Cancer) which >>> he did not know about before the treatment, or if the person uses drugs >>> secretly without letting anyone know during >>> the treatment. >>> >>> if the person follows a good diet and has no heart problem then >>> there are >>> no more risk then taking an aspirin. >>> >>> when you get over the age of 18 you should be able to make your own >>> choice. >>> >>> Sara >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> There is something horribly wrong with the angry abuse directed >>> > against wholly responsible behaviour. One individual screws up, >>> > advertises using the name of another group, sets out to mislead and >>> > acts in a dangerously irresponsible manner. Anyone who is aware of >>> > this behaviour and doesn't publicise it is the one doing harm. I'm >>> > afraid I still go with the knowledge. Deborah Mash said ibogaine >>> > should "never ever" be used outside of a hospital. This limits the >>> > options. But Howard Lotsof said that ibogaine treatments should take >>> > place in a hospital environment with medically qualified staff >>> > whenever it is possible. In the real world you have to weigh up the >>> > risk, which rises in proportion to the lack of experience. There are >>> > two relevant types of experience. One is experience in administering >>> > the treatment. The other is general medical knowledge. Often those >>> > experienced in treatments have little medical experience. Most >>> > medical people know little about ibogaine treatments. It seems to be >>> > stating the bleeding obvious that the best situation is one that >>> > involves medical knowledge in combination with ibogaine experience >>> and >>> > compassion and responsibility round this out. In the real world >>> > compromises need to be made and risks taken. But assessing and >>> > accepting a risk is not the same as eliminating a risk. And >>> failing to >>> > report and criticise errors, deliberate or accidental, means they >>> will >>> > keep getting repeated. >>> > >>> > On 13/01/2012, Kevin Walker <kevin at ibogainesa.co.za> wrote: >>> >> Sara, >>> >> >>> >> I don't think it is entire bullshit as you have claimed! I think >>> on >> this >>> >> very platform we have discussed this before, you claim that most >>> >> deaths >>> have >>> >> been those that have been done in clinic's. Yes death has >>> occurred in >>> >> clinic's and we all aware of them, as they are recorded deaths, what >>> about >>> >> all those that are unrecorded the underground, those done in the >>> bush >>> etc >>> >> etc. I personally have heard of a treatment done in a motel and when >>> things >>> >> got out of hand the so called provider just left the patient >>> /client >> and >>> >> disassociated themselves to the events around that. >>> >> I think that there are many more deaths than those that have been >>> recorded, >>> >> these have been over looked and or discounted due to a so called >>> secondary >>> >> event. >>> >> >>> >> Come on lets deal with the real world ! >>> >> >>> >> Regards. >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >> >>> [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] >>> On >>> >> Behalf Of Sara Glatt >>> >> Sent: 13 January 2012 09:33 >>> >> To: The Ibogaine List >>> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical "Underground" >>> Ibogaine >>> Detox >>> >> Treatment Centers >>> >> >>> >>> *Transitions* | *Unethical* "Underground" Ibogaine Detox Treatment >>> >>> >>> >> *...*< >>> http://myibogaine.com/2012/transitions-unethical-%E2%80%9Cunderground% >>> >> >>> E2%80%9D-ibogaine-detox-treatment-centers/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm >>> >>> >> >>> _campaign=transitions-unethical-%25e2%2580%259cunderground%25e2%2580%259d-ib >>> >>> >> ogaine-detox-treatment-centers> >>> >>> http://myibogaine.com/2012/*transitions*-*unethical*-"undergroun... >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> This is bullshit! what is underground, when everybody knows? >>> what is >>> >> unethical? >>> >> most of the people who have died during the treatment died in a >>> >> medical >>> >> facility. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >>> > >>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120114/b729ccce/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 14 >> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 08:34:54 -0800 >> From: cbava108 at gmail.com >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: >> <CABg8pxACtqhkq3P9OwScAmOsNVUHxJ5Vx2=qfLUGPuFi=bymeA at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> If you follow the thread, you'll find the author of the post is from >> the >> clinic in Cancun and their phone number is clearly listed on the site, >> furthermore, Dr. Sol? from that clinic made a comment on the thread >> detailing his first hand experience with Mr. Mason. If that isn't >> enough, >> I've got facts re Mr. Mason feel free to contact me. The world might >> very >> well be a jungle but if I happen upon a snake in the grass during the >> course of my travels I'd feel compelled to alert my fellow travelers of >> it's whereabouts and I hope my friends would do the same for me. It's >> not >> only an issue of safety but also fair business practices, if I pay for a >> new car and get a mule instead shouldn't people know it's not a great >> idea >> to do business there? >> >> On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 6:03 AM, <masterhermesbathory at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> True that! >>> Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. >>> Envoy? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r?seau de >>> Bell. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >>> Sender: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:25:35 >>> To: The Ibogaine List<ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> Reply-To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >>> Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun >>> d? Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> >>> there is a lot of wrong info. on the internet,which does not give >>> credits to the spirit of the Iboga plant. >>> >>> YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IBOGA IS NOT MORE DANGEROUS THEN AN ASPIRIN! >>> >>> YOU NEED TO READ THE USER MANUAL. >>> >>> the are medical Doctors who are giving to people much to small >>> amount of >>> Ibogaine >>> and after 36 hours are finished and they are still in withdrawals, they >>> would get >>> some of their money back after being told that the Ibogaine >>> treatment did >>> not work for them. >>> that a person is a Doctor does not mean he cares more about the addict. >>> >>> the warning should be sign up with their name and tel. no. >>> >>> "a jungle" is the Catholic church? the school system? the health >>> system? >>> the political system? the banking system? the law system?the economical >>> system? the ecological system? the solar system? >>> and the lies of the media and of those who want us to believe they >>> KNOW >>> better. >>> >>> life is a transformation of energy which is not in human control. >>> you can >>> learn to have more awareness of your body >>> and soul and gain some control on your Qi level, health needs. >>> >>> discrediting people without knowing the facts first hand is bullshit! >>> >>> Sara >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >>> > published information. If the users in forums like this are >>> unwilling >>> > to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >>> > problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements. It seems >>> > like some people like it to be a jungle. Like on the streets. If >>> > something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it out. That's >>> > your screw-up. Fuck you." But how does a junkie check things out if >>> > not through forums like this. To me the warning is plain and direct. >>> > It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down. It does >>> > not guess. It provides information that is known to the complainer. >>> > Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about what they >>> > are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read. There is >>> > no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >>> > ibogaine providers as in any field. If you want it to get better you >>> > try to weed the bad people out. If you knew a dealer was selling >>> crap >>> > product wouldn't you tell your friends? Some of the abuse here >>> sounds >>> > exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys. Why shit on >>> us. >>> > Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the good guys. >>> > What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag? We're still the >>> > good guys. Leave us alone. And anyway, he was asking to be bashed. >>> > He's a junkie." There is plenty of information in the warning. >>> The >>> > fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant. They had >>> > enough information to know that something is very wrong and they gave >>> > a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented itself as >>> > having an association with them via one of their doctors. Obviously >>> > they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >>> > facility. It's not their role to investigate further. >>> > >>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120114/1d22c7d1/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 15 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 12:24:24 +1100 >> From: David Ray <trees.and.rain at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: >> <CAD_M9k1z981Mh2=jyVwtbvBo9JO8AvjdWQGHyLeb1ovYOPnBCA at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> I got an extremely detailed and well informed criticism of what I said >> (rather abusively, but largely to the point) earlier on this listing >> and I am posting my response to that post. That may seem a bit >> unfair, but it would not be right of me to post what they said against >> their will, however I have suggested that they post what they sent to >> me as I think it is exactly what should be said on a site like >> mindvox. In Australia the internet is pretty much the only source of >> information about ibogaine. Despite bits and pieces of great value >> mindvox is mainly poor or misleading information. >> >> Hi, Thanks for the information. >> I guess it comes from the fact that sites like mindvox are so >> appalling. You give a largely rational criticism of the >> warning(although there are many personal prejudices also apparent), >> but the other criticisms were uninformed ranting. They make none of >> the points you make. They appear entirely unaware of them and >> criticise purely on the basis that it is wrong to criticise any >> provider. There are dangerous providers. Where is information about >> these providers to come from if not sites like this? I was directed >> to the ibogaine survivors group by X (I've deleted the name from this >> copy of the post as I don't want to possibly damage them by >> association with me). There are good bits to learn there, but mainly >> it is a support group, not an information site. However, X lives in >> the area and knows the providers in the area and via previous posts of >> him/her I have come to trust what X says. I trust his/her criticism. >> It is a fact that there was no criticism of the warning on the basis >> of anything other than straight conjecture. Mexican's take money from >> those who can pay. I couldn't care less about that. I only care that >> they provide the service they take the money for. The only way I can >> find out if they do that is on the basis of personal recommendation. >> Mindvox is largely appalling, but it is also the first point of call >> for many people. And going back to the start when people like Howard >> Lotsof was posting on it regularly it provided good information >> amongst all the drivel. Despite all these years, nearly all the >> valuable information I've found online has come from Howard Lotsof and >> his collaborators, from Dana Beal (despite idiosyncracies), from Mr. >> Krupa (despite massive idiosyncracies) and from Deborah Mash, and >> various scientific research papers. I know Howard and Deborah went to >> war over patents. I'm indifferent to that. They both had rights >> based on the work they put in. Krupa's posts are of particular value >> because they criticise. They say - that may or may not work. They >> also say, as Howard does - I know this much, but any more than this - >> I only say what I am sure about. I also have a major concern >> inasmuch as I personally want to use this drug for addiction >> interruption but its uniqueness and its various modes of action mean >> that the drug or its metabolites and derivates could have vast >> applications, for post traumatic stress, for severe depression, for >> chronic pain, and many others. In many ways its use for addiction >> treatment pushes researchers away from it. I have one doctor I've >> written to in australia that I knew well many years ago and is now >> senior advisor to the Victorian government on addiction medicine. I've >> been looking for places to direct him on the web with follow up >> information. False advertising and drivel make up 90%. >> I can't endlessly waste my time on this. I would happy for you to >> post your criticism of me on mindvox. This is the ONLY rational >> criticism I have read of that warning. I stand 100% by my comments >> regarding the other criticisms and their inbred self-protecting >> behaviour. Further, to complain about people providing a good quality >> service and charging heaps for it, but to say that you don't care >> about someone harming ill-informed junkies - that is utterly >> despicable. And goes to the very heart of my criticism. Screaming >> abuse has been part of mindvox ibo from the beginning. Go back to the >> start and have a look. It is also the source of some of the very best >> information. And it is part of the process that points out the >> irrational morons and brings out rational and well thought out >> responses, like what you gave me. This is exactly what should be on >> mindvox. I could be like you and simply write off mindvox, or I could >> try to improve it. Or, which is probably nearer the truth, I could >> just vent a bit of my disgust at some of the providers who seem to >> want ibogaine to remain underground, rather than becoming further >> medicalised and thus becoming safer. They shouldn't worry - it won't >> wipe out the underground providers (by your definition, which I don't >> accept, or any other), there will still be those looking for spiritual >> enlightenment that won't be acceptable to the medical streams. In >> mainstream medicine the numbers who could get treatment would be >> massively increased therefore the benefit would be massively >> increased. Contrary to what many people would say, this is occurring >> now, albeit slowly. >> >> I will post this response on mindvox. I would like you to post your >> criticism of me as well, but that is your choice. However, what you >> have said would be massively useful. I would not have made the >> comments I did if I had read a detailed and rational criticism of this >> kind. My criticism is because I read nothing of this quality. I >> don't care about the way that it is critical of me. I don't care if >> it puts me in the black book of some providers. >> >> David >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 16 >> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:19:53 -0600 >> From: star ray <earthshealing at hotmail.com> >> To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical "Underground" Ibogaine >> Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: <SNT133-W580A349537F55E32373D74B6820 at phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >> thank you Sara!!!! I agree... STAR >> > Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 13:49:42 +0100 >>> From: sara119 at xs4all.nl >>> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical "Underground" >>> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> >>> >>> >>> We all know that Iboga has been use before we were born and still >>> is, as >>> a sacrament and a healing plant. >>> >>> the Medical Doctors do not believe in the plant spirit and in the >>> teaching >>> of the plants, in the ability to chanal enrgies and knowledege. they >>> would laugh at a bush doctor, they have no >>> interest in healing energies. >>> I have seen people heal spontaniously after the iboga session, >>> something which is medically impossible within 3 days. >>> >>> >>> >>> the only risks is if the person has a heart problems which the test >>> did not find or another condition (Cancer) which >>> he did not know about before the treatment, or if the person uses >>> drugs secretly without letting anyone know during >>> the treatment. >>> >>> if the person follows a good diet and has no heart problem then >>> there are no more risk then taking an aspirin. >>> >>> when you get over the age of 18 you should be able to make your own >>> choice. >>> >>> Sara >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> There is something horribly wrong with the angry abuse directed >>> > against wholly responsible behaviour. One individual screws up, >>> > advertises using the name of another group, sets out to mislead and >>> > acts in a dangerously irresponsible manner. Anyone who is aware of >>> > this behaviour and doesn't publicise it is the one doing harm. I'm >>> > afraid I still go with the knowledge. Deborah Mash said ibogaine >>> > should "never ever" be used outside of a hospital. This limits the >>> > options. But Howard Lotsof said that ibogaine treatments should take >>> > place in a hospital environment with medically qualified staff >>> > whenever it is possible. In the real world you have to weigh up the >>> > risk, which rises in proportion to the lack of experience. There are >>> > two relevant types of experience. One is experience in administering >>> > the treatment. The other is general medical knowledge. Often those >>> > experienced in treatments have little medical experience. Most >>> > medical people know little about ibogaine treatments. It seems to be >>> > stating the bleeding obvious that the best situation is one that >>> > involves medical knowledge in combination with ibogaine experience >>> and >>> > compassion and responsibility round this out. In the real world >>> > compromises need to be made and risks taken. But assessing and >>> > accepting a risk is not the same as eliminating a risk. And >>> failing to >>> > report and criticise errors, deliberate or accidental, means they >>> will >>> > keep getting repeated. >>> > >>> > On 13/01/2012, Kevin Walker <kevin at ibogainesa.co.za> wrote: >>> >> Sara, >>> >> >>> >> I don't think it is entire bullshit as you have claimed! I think >>> on >> this >>> >> very platform we have discussed this before, you claim that most >>> >> deaths have >>> >> been those that have been done in clinic's. Yes death has >>> occurred in >>> >> clinic's and we all aware of them, as they are recorded deaths, >>> what >> about >>> >> all those that are unrecorded the underground, those done in the >>> bush >> etc >>> >> etc. I personally have heard of a treatment done in a motel and >>> when >> things >>> >> got out of hand the so called provider just left the patient >>> /client >> and >>> >> disassociated themselves to the events around that. >>> >> I think that there are many more deaths than those that have been >>> >> recorded, >>> >> these have been over looked and or discounted due to a so called >>> >> secondary >>> >> event. >>> >> >>> >> Come on lets deal with the real world ! >>> >> >>> >> Regards. >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >> >>> [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] On >>> >> Behalf Of Sara Glatt >>> >> Sent: 13 January 2012 09:33 >>> >> To: The Ibogaine List >>> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical "Underground" >>> Ibogaine >> Detox >>> >> Treatment Centers >>> >> >>> >>> *Transitions* | *Unethical* "Underground" Ibogaine Detox Treatment >>> >>> >>> >> >>> *...*<http://myibogaine.com/2012/transitions-unethical-%E2%80%9Cunderground% >>> >> >>> E2%80%9D-ibogaine-detox-treatment-centers/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm >>> >> >>> _campaign=transitions-unethical-%25e2%2580%259cunderground%25e2%2580%259d-ib >>> >> ogaine-detox-treatment-centers> >>> >>> http://myibogaine.com/2012/*transitions*-*unethical*-"undergroun... >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> This is bullshit! what is underground, when everybody knows? >>> what is >>> >> unethical? >>> >> most of the people who have died during the treatment died in a >>> >> medical >>> >> facility. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >>> > >>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120114/62f9af96/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 17 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 01:54:25 -0800 (PST) >> From: Vector Vector <vector620022002 at yahoo.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: >> <1326621265.8321.YahooMailNeo at web160905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I don't understand parts of what you're talking about but mostly >> agree with the 90% I think I got. >> The ibo hatefest often featuring the treatment providers has always >> been the way it is right now that I know about, at least since 2001 >> is documented on mindvox. >> On the subject of ibogaine providers I have a lot of respect for you >> Sara, we used to talk in email back when I just graduated hs and was >> going to college. I think you're a awesome healer that helps people >> some of the time and vent like crazy at other times. >> >> You've had a huge injustice in the nl happen for you, which is >> screwing up your life and may make ibo a scheduled substance there. >> Why do you need to write Marc Emery hate mail for Christmas in >> prison? What part of love and healing is that about. I know you two >> argued a lot, all over this list in fact. Why kick a person who does >> a lot of good things when they're down. You disagreed or had a fight, >> it's that important to stay petty after all those years? >> >> http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/blogs/marc >> >> Marc Emery's Blog >> Christmas Prison Blog: It's A Wonderful Life >> Saturday, December 24 2011 >> TAGS: BLOG CHRISTMAS MARC EMERY MISSISSIPPI PRISON USA >> >> I hope each of my correspondents that receive a letter from me know >> it?s personalized, detailed and completely original and unique to >> that person's questions, comments and life story. I have received >> letters from Australia, Norway, Iceland, Germany, Poland, Belgium, >> Indonesia, Peru, the Philippines, Finland, Russia, Costa Rica, South >> Africa, the United Kingdom, Norway, but most come from the United >> States, then Canada. The only negative or hateful letter I have >> received is from Sara Glatt in Amsterdam, a woman I once gave$4,000
>> (in 2004) to help her get her ibogaine hospice off the ground again
>> after she was raided by police. That brings to mind the phrase 'no
>> good deed shall go unpunished'. She's been ungrateful and vindictive
>> ever since! She wrote me here at Yazoo to say I "deserve to rot in
>> jail". Whew! Glad it?s just one nasty letter out of 3,000.
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: David Ray <trees.and.rain at gmail.com>
>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:24 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d?
>> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers
>>
>> I got an extremely detailed and well informed criticism of what I said
>> (rather abusively, but largely to the point) earlier on this listing
>> and I am posting my response to that post.? That may seem a bit
>> unfair, but it would not be right of me to post what they said against
>> their will, however I have suggested that they post what they sent to
>> me as I think it is exactly what should be said on a site like
>> mindvox.? In Australia the internet is pretty much the only source of
>> information about ibogaine.? Despite bits and pieces of great value
>> mindvox is mainly poor or misleading information.
>>
>> Hi, Thanks for the information.
>> I guess it comes from the fact that sites like mindvox are so
>> appalling. You give a largely rational criticism of the
>> warning(although there are many personal prejudices also apparent),
>> but the other criticisms were uninformed ranting.? They make none of
>> the points you make.? They appear entirely unaware of them and
>> criticise purely on the basis that it is wrong to criticise any
>> provider.? There are dangerous providers.? Where is information about
>> these providers to come from if not sites like this?? I was directed
>> to the ibogaine survivors group by X (I've deleted the name from this
>> copy of the post as I don't want to possibly damage them by
>> association with me).? There are good bits to learn there, but mainly
>> it is a support group, not an information site.? However, X lives in
>> the area and knows the providers in the area and via previous posts of
>> him/her I have come to trust what X says.? I trust his/her criticism.
>> It is a fact that there was no criticism of the warning on the basis
>> of anything other than straight conjecture.? Mexican's take money from
>> those who can pay.? I couldn't care less about that.? I only care that
>> they provide the service they take the money for.? The only way I can
>> find out if they do that is on the basis of personal recommendation.
>> Mindvox is largely appalling, but it is also the first point of call
>> for many people.? And going back to the start when people like Howard
>> Lotsof was posting on it regularly it provided good information
>> amongst all the drivel.? Despite all these years, nearly all the
>> valuable information I've found online has come from Howard Lotsof and
>> his collaborators, from Dana Beal (despite idiosyncracies), from Mr.
>> Krupa (despite massive idiosyncracies) and from Deborah Mash, and
>> various scientific research papers. I know Howard and Deborah went to
>> war over patents.? I'm indifferent to that.? They both had rights
>> based on the work they put in.? Krupa's posts are of particular value
>> because they criticise.? They say - that may or may not work. They
>> also say, as Howard does - I know this much, but any more than this -
>> I only say what I am sure about.?  I also have a major concern
>> inasmuch as I personally want to use this drug for addiction
>> interruption but its uniqueness and its various modes of action mean
>> that the drug or its metabolites and derivates could have vast
>> applications, for post traumatic stress, for severe depression, for
>> chronic pain, and many others.? In many ways its use for addiction
>> treatment pushes researchers away from it.? I have one doctor I've
>> written to in australia that I knew well many years ago and is now
>> been looking for places to direct him on the web with follow up
>> information.? False advertising and drivel make up 90%.
>> I can't endlessly waste my time on this.? I would happy for you to
>> post your criticism of me on mindvox.? This is the ONLY rational
>> criticism I have read of that warning.? I stand 100% by my comments
>> regarding the other criticisms and their inbred self-protecting
>> behaviour.? Further, to complain about people providing a good quality
>> service and charging heaps for it, but to say that you don't care
>> about someone harming ill-informed junkies - that is utterly
>> despicable.? And goes to the very heart of my criticism.? Screaming
>> abuse has been part of mindvox ibo from the beginning. Go back to the
>> start and have a look.? It is also the source of some of the very best
>> information.?  And it is part of the process that points out the
>> irrational morons and brings out rational and well thought out
>> responses, like what you gave me.? This is exactly what should be on
>> mindvox.? I could be like you and simply write off mindvox, or I could
>> try to improve it.? Or, which is probably nearer the truth, I could
>> just vent? a bit of my disgust at some of the providers who seem to
>> want ibogaine to remain underground, rather than becoming further
>> medicalised and thus becoming safer. They shouldn't worry - it won't
>> wipe out the underground providers (by your definition, which I don't
>> accept, or any other), there will still be those looking for spiritual
>> enlightenment that won't be acceptable to the medical streams.? In
>> mainstream medicine the numbers who could get treatment would be
>> massively increased therefore the benefit would be massively
>> increased. Contrary to what many people would say, this is occurring
>> now, albeit slowly.
>>
>> I will post this response on mindvox.? I would like you to post your
>> criticism of me as well, but that is your choice.? However, what you
>> have said would be massively useful. I would not have made the
>> kind.? My criticism is because I read nothing of this quality.? I
>> don't care about the way that it is critical of me.? I don't care if
>> it puts me in the black book of some providers.
>>
>> David
>>
>> ? -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>> (][%]? :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::? [%][)
>> ? -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120115/3e899fcb/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 18
>> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 02:00:45 -0800 (PST)
>> From: Vector Vector <vector620022002 at yahoo.com>
>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Subject: [Ibogaine] [ot] want percs instead of excedrin?
>> Message-ID:
>> <1326621645.76810.YahooMailNeo at web160904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/09/health/drug-mix-up-fda/index.html
>>
>> Consumers warned about possible drug mix-up
>>
>> Novartis issues massive pill recall
>> (CNN) -- Machinery problems at a drug manufacturing plant prompted
>> the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to warn patients of a possible
>> mix-up affecting various prescription pain medications and
>> over-the-counter drugs.
>>
>> The FDA is advising patients who use certain prescription medications
>> produced by Endo Pharmaceuticals to visually inspect their pills. And
>> consumers who have select bottles of Excedrin, Bufferin, NoDoz and
>> Gas-X, produced by Novartis, are being told to discard or return the
>> products in a voluntary recall that started Sunday.
>>
>> The over-the-counter drugs involved in the recall were manufactured
>> at a Lincoln, Nebraska, facility which also produced various
>> prescription pain medicines for Endo Pharmaceuticals, according to
>> the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. These pills include Percocet,
>> Opana and Percodan.
>>
>> "Due to problems that occurred when these products were packaged and
>> labeled at the site, it's possible that tablets from one product may
>> have been retained in the packaging machinery and then may have
>> carried over into the packaging of another product," said Dr. Edward
>> Cox, director of the Office of Antimicrobial Products, Office of New
>> Drugs, Center for Drug Evaluation of Research for the FDA.
>>
>> "This could result in an incorrect pill ending up in the bottle of
>> another product. The likelihood of this occurring in medication
>> dispensed in patients is estimated to be low," he added.
>>
>> The prescription opioids could have ended up in the bottle of another
>> prescription drug or over-the-counter products, although "the risk of
>> pills ending up in the wrong bottle is a rare event," according to
>> the FDA.
>>
>> There have been no reports of adverse events due to this problem, Cox
>> said.
>>
>> Patients who take an affected Endo Pharmaceuticals products should
>> visually inspect all the pills in their bottles, according to the
>> company and FDA. Endo Pharmaceuticals posted pictures of the products
>> on their web page for tablet identifications.
>>
>> The products listed there: Opana ER (oxymorphone hydrochloride)
>> extended-release tablets CII; Opana (oxymorphone hydrochloride)
>> tablets CII; oxymorphone hydrochloride tablets CII; Percocet
>> (oxycodone hydrochloride and acetaminophen USP) tablets CII; Percodan
>> (oxycodone hydrochloride and aspirin, USP) tablets CII; Endocet
>> (oxycodone hydrochloride and acetaminophen USP) tablets CII; Endodan
>> (oxycodone hydrochloride and aspirin, USP) tablets CII; Morphine
>> Sulfate Extended-Release Tablets CII; and Zydone (hydrocodone
>> bitartrate/acetaminophen tablets, USP) CIII.
>>
>> "We are asking patients to check their medicines, to look for any
>> tablets of a different size, shape or color from their regular
>> medicine," Cox said. "If they find any tablets that are different,
>> stop taking the pain medication and take the medicine to the
>> pharmacy. We are telling patients to look carefully at all tablets in
>> pain medication bottle."
>>
>> Patients who have questions should contact Endo Pharmaceuticals or
>>
>> Pharmacists are also being asked to "visually inspect and verify the
>> identity of all tablets dispensed," Cox said.
>>
>> "The likelihood of finding a wrong pill in an opioid pain medication
>> is low," he said. "Patients should not be alarmed. These steps we're
>> recommending are additional steps we are recommending to further
>> reduce an already low likelihood of medication mix-up."
>>
>> The Nebraska plant has been temporarily shut down, which could cause
>> drug shortages and disruptions in the supply chain for Endo
>> Pharmaceuticals.
>>
>> "We anticipate that there may be a short-term disruption in the
>> supply of these products to patients. This temporary supply
>> disruption is not related to the efficacy or safety of these
>> products," according to the company.
>>
>> "We are not aware of any patient having experienced a confirmed
>> product mix-up and there have been no adverse events attributable to
>> a product mix-up. We believe the likelihood of product mix-up
>> reaching a patient is remote," according to the company.
>>
>> The over-the-counter items involved in the Novartis recall include
>> Excedrin and NoDoz products with expiration dates of December 20,
>> 2014, or earlier, as well as Bufferin and Gas-X products with
>> December 20, 2013, or earlier expiration dates.
>>
>> Novartis had suspended operations at, and shipments from, the
>> Lincoln, Nebraska, facility. The company said this was done "to
>> accelerate maintenance" and make other improvements, adding that it
>> currently "is not possible" to determine when the plant will reopen.
>>
>> Consumers who have the affected products can contact Novartis
>> Consumer Relationship Center or try to obtain a refund.
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120115/f65c53b9/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 19
>> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 13:27:03 +0100
>> From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl>
>> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d???
>> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce  nters
>> Message-ID:
>> <3bba1640172825c905981deda1a3e99a.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>>> first of all it was a private letter to Marc and not the the rest of
>>> the world, but he could not keep it private.
>> It is NOT a hate fest, it meant to be a private matter.by right now
>> he has more nasty letters from people who have
>> been abused and insulted by him and Jodie, for NO reason at all.NOT
>> everyone loves them.
>> why? this is why, and it is not the only reason.
>> His character assassination of mine here, lies and abuse.
>>
>> "Character assassination is an attempt to tarnish a person's
>> reputation. It may involve exaggeration, misleading
>> half-truths, or manipulation of facts to present an untrue picture of
>> the targeted person. It is a form of
>> defamation."
>>
>> For living individuals targeted by character assassination attempts,
>> this may result in being rejected by his
>> community, family, or members of his or her living or work
>> environment. Such acts are often difficult to reverse or
>> rectify, and the process is likened to a literal assassination of a
>> human life. The damage sustained can last a
>>
>>
>> Marc abused someone who has been on this list for as many years as
>> you V. and maybe even longer.
>> someone who got treated in Iboga therapy house when Marc was
>> a person who I admire and love, and who got a remote treatment from
>> me, since it did not work for him in Canada,
>> coming off 100mg of methadone with a single dose which obviously did
>> not work,  and who has a bit of a brain damage
>> and will not speak up for the injustice done to him By Marc "the
>> prince of pot", the mental harassment the
>> brainwashing to return something for the "free" treatment were over
>> the TOP.you only see the PRO propaganda but can't
>> see the damage, damaged people have no energy to speak up. anyway if
>> you wish to ask me something personal I prefer
>> that you it in private.
>>
>> beside,Marc is a pervert who would drug women to fuck them up their
>> ass and spread his sexual preference openly
>> online, which drug can help which sexual act? who admitted to be
>> cheating on his wives and girlfriends. when money is
>> the most important religion these days, people look up to him no
>> matter what.
>>
>> well,I do not expect an apology, not from a "prince". but for sure
>> all those who wrote support letters to Marc have
>> no idea who he really is.
>>
>>
>> Sara
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't understand parts of what you're talking about but mostly
>> agree with the 90% I think I got.
>>> The ibo hatefest often featuring the treatment providers has always
>>> been the way it is right now that I know about, at
>>> least since 2001 is documented on mindvox.
>>> On the subject of ibogaine providers I have a lot of respect for you
>>> Sara, we used to talk in email back when I just
>>> graduated hs and was going to college. I think you're a awesome
>>> healer that helps people some of the time and vent
>>> like crazy at other times.
>>>
>>> You've had a huge injustice in the nl happen for you, which is
>>> screwing up your life and may make ibo a scheduled
>>> substance there. Why do you need to write Marc Emery hate mail for
>>> Christmas in prison? What part of love and healing
>>> is that about. I know you two argued a lot, all over this list in
>>> fact. Why kick a person who does a lot of good
>>> things when they're down. You disagreed or had a fight, it's that
>>> important to stay petty after all those years?
>>>
>>> http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/blogs/marc
>>>
>>> Marc Emery's Blog
>>> Christmas Prison Blog: It's A Wonderful Life
>>> Saturday, December 24 2011
>>> TAGS: BLOG CHRISTMAS MARC EMERY MISSISSIPPI PRISON USA
>>>
>>> I hope each of my correspondents that receive a letter from me know
>>> it???s personalized, detailed and completely
>>> original and unique to that person's questions, comments and life
>>> story. I have received letters from Australia,
>>> Norway, Iceland, Germany, Poland, Belgium, Indonesia, Peru, the
>>> Philippines, Finland, Russia, Costa Rica, South
>>> Africa, the United Kingdom, Norway, but most come from the United
>>> States, then Canada. The only negative or hateful
>>> letter I have received is from Sara Glatt in Amsterdam, a woman I
>>> once gave $4,000 (in 2004) to help her get her >>> ibogaine hospice off the ground again after she was raided by >>> police. That brings to mind the phrase 'no good deed >>> shall go unpunished'. She's been ungrateful and vindictive ever >>> since! She wrote me here at Yazoo to say I "deserve to >>> rot in jail". Whew! Glad it???s just one nasty letter out of 3,000. >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: David Ray <trees.and.rain at gmail.com> >>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:24 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d??? >>> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> >>> I got an extremely detailed and well informed criticism of what I said >>> (rather abusively, but largely to the point) earlier on this listing >>> and I am posting my response to that post.?? That may seem a bit >>> unfair, but it would not be right of me to post what they said against >>> their will, however I have suggested that they post what they sent to >>> me as I think it is exactly what should be said on a site like >>> mindvox.?? In Australia the internet is pretty much the only source of >>> information about ibogaine.?? Despite bits and pieces of great value >>> mindvox is mainly poor or misleading information. >>> >>> Hi, Thanks for the information. >>> I guess it comes from the fact that sites like mindvox are so >>> appalling. You give a largely rational criticism of the >>> warning(although there are many personal prejudices also apparent), >>> but the other criticisms were uninformed ranting.?? They make none of >>> the points you make.?? They appear entirely unaware of them and >>> criticise purely on the basis that it is wrong to criticise any >>> provider.?? There are dangerous providers.?? Where is information about >>> these providers to come from if not sites like this??? I was directed >>> to the ibogaine survivors group by X (I've deleted the name from this >>> copy of the post as I don't want to possibly damage them by >>> association with me).?? There are good bits to learn there, but mainly >>> it is a support group, not an information site.?? However, X lives in >>> the area and knows the providers in the area and via previous posts of >>> him/her I have come to trust what X says.?? I trust his/her criticism. >>> It is a fact that there was no criticism of the warning on the basis >>> of anything other than straight conjecture.?? Mexican's take money from >>> those who can pay.?? I couldn't care less about that.?? I only care >>> that >>> they provide the service they take the money for.?? The only way I can >>> find out if they do that is on the basis of personal recommendation. >>> Mindvox is largely appalling, but it is also the first point of call >>> for many people.?? And going back to the start when people like Howard >>> Lotsof was posting on it regularly it provided good information >>> amongst all the drivel.?? Despite all these years, nearly all the >>> valuable information I've found online has come from Howard Lotsof and >>> his collaborators, from Dana Beal (despite idiosyncracies), from Mr. >>> Krupa (despite massive idiosyncracies) and from Deborah Mash, and >>> various scientific research papers. I know Howard and Deborah went to >>> war over patents.?? I'm indifferent to that.?? They both had rights >>> based on the work they put in.?? Krupa's posts are of particular value >>> because they criticise.?? They say - that may or may not work. They >>> also say, as Howard does - I know this much, but any more than this - >>> I only say what I am sure about.?? I also have a major concern >>> inasmuch as I personally want to use this drug for addiction >>> interruption but its uniqueness and its various modes of action mean >>> that the drug or its metabolites and derivates could have vast >>> applications, for post traumatic stress, for severe depression, for >>> chronic pain, and many others.?? In many ways its use for addiction >>> treatment pushes researchers away from it.?? I have one doctor I've >>> written to in australia that I knew well many years ago and is now >>> senior advisor to the Victorian government on addiction medicine. I've >>> been looking for places to direct him on the web with follow up >>> information.?? False advertising and drivel make up 90%. >>> I can't endlessly waste my time on this.?? I would happy for you to >>> post your criticism of me on mindvox.?? This is the ONLY rational >>> criticism I have read of that warning.?? I stand 100% by my comments >>> regarding the other criticisms and their inbred self-protecting >>> behaviour.?? Further, to complain about people providing a good quality >>> service and charging heaps for it, but to say that you don't care >>> about someone harming ill-informed junkies - that is utterly >>> despicable.?? And goes to the very heart of my criticism.?? Screaming >>> abuse has been part of mindvox ibo from the beginning. Go back to the >>> start and have a look.?? It is also the source of some of the very best >>> information.?? And it is part of the process that points out the >>> irrational morons and brings out rational and well thought out >>> responses, like what you gave me.?? This is exactly what should be on >>> mindvox.?? I could be like you and simply write off mindvox, or I could >>> try to improve it.?? Or, which is probably nearer the truth, I could >>> just vent?? a bit of my disgust at some of the providers who seem to >>> want ibogaine to remain underground, rather than becoming further >>> medicalised and thus becoming safer. They shouldn't worry - it won't >>> wipe out the underground providers (by your definition, which I don't >>> accept, or any other), there will still be those looking for spiritual >>> enlightenment that won't be acceptable to the medical streams.?? In >>> mainstream medicine the numbers who could get treatment would be >>> massively increased therefore the benefit would be massively >>> increased. Contrary to what many people would say, this is occurring >>> now, albeit slowly. >>> >>> I will post this response on mindvox.?? I would like you to post your >>> criticism of me as well, but that is your choice.?? However, what you >>> have said would be massively useful. I would not have made the >>> comments I did if I had read a detailed and rational criticism of this >>> kind.?? My criticism is because I read nothing of this quality.?? I >>> don't care about the way that it is critical of me.?? I don't care if >>> it puts me in the black book of some providers. >>> >>> David >>> >>> ?? -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%]?? :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::?? [%][) >>> ?? -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 20 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:14:36 -0500 >> From: sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: <E5CA8528-DD9C-41E1-9B9A-526D527FEA1B at yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> >> You know'.' I might have to back track a bit. I do think that >> this is the place and a few others that one should share bad >> experiences of poor providers. >> I guess what I was trying to say (though poorly) is that to come on >> here and trash someone without the information of what went wrong >> just bothers me. >> >> I do not know the person Beau. I did not see what went wrong. All I >> could read was that something went wrong and Beau is claiming to have >> medical experience. >> >> We are working with a plant that our government will not allow the US >> to do any research on (or make it public) so some trial and error >> will happen. We all know there are some risk to using this plant for >> Addiction. Stuff will happen. I just think it would serve us all >> better to know what went wrong. Just to say that he had to go to >> the hospital is so little. It could of been that he went straight >> from Methadone\sub to iboga. It could be that he was not prepared >> for the lethargy that happens to those who choose this route. OR is >> could be that he didn't receive the amt of medicine that was needed. >> So much unsaid. I am not asking for the persons name or address.. >> just more information. It that asking for too much. Not like we >> can take that info and figure out who had the treatment. >> >> I think its so sad that we cant come here or somewhere and share with >> everyone when things do go south without the fear of being labeled as >> a poor provider. So much disinformation comes to this board. So >> much we all need to learn about this plant. >> >> I once had a person that I treated who was treated by another >> provider first. This fellow was told that ''if it didn't work, he >> could get another tx free of charge". Well hearing this the addict >> stayed clean for three days.. as soon as he returned home he began >> shooting dope again. I was called in to help. I ask this guy why the >> treatment didn't work... he knew that it did but was just not >> ready. This fellow had a seizure during his treatment with me. I >> was lucky enough to have had a IV valium ready and he did not need to >> be taken to the ER. Why I am sharing this is I should have been able >> to come here, share what happen and how I treated him which didn't >> need ER visit. Many non-medical providers could have learned from >> this. Thus being a better provider and maybe saving a life. But to >> tell the truth, I was fearful to share this here. In fear that I >> would be labeled a poor provider due to the gentleman having a >> seizure. This gentleman was told and allowed >> to drink up to his treatment... from what he shared with me his >> provider drank etoh thru out the treatment also. I am aware of >> another provider who I have great respect for as a provider. This >> person was under the impression that three days from etoh was enough >> time to give a safe treatment.. so not true. If I felt comfortable >> sharing my story maybe this provider could of learn by my experience >> and the client would NOT have had the seizure. Get my point? I do >> know there are poor providers out there. I do know that many are in >> this for the Money only. So yes... those providers need to stopped >> or at the least warn others about them. >> >> So... my post did not say what I was trying to get across. Its not >> that I don't think that poor providers need to be called out... just >> the opposite. But I also know that a lot of trashing goes on here >> and by phone by a few providers. These folks tell such whoppers it >> nearly funny. I have had clients call me after talking to WELL KNOWN >> provider who told such BIG whoppers of lies on other providers just >> to secure that client. Now we hear that this provider has had a >> relapse ...... for me this is no excuse for his behavior. So I am a >> bit skeptical when it comes to trashing a provider. I heard the lies >> that this certain provider was spreading. Actually said that when >> the client dies the body parts are sold to the black market. >> >> SO... I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say. NOT that I >> don't want those that have a poor experience, or ripped off, or >> treated by someone who cares less about ones safety. I just would >> like to see some constructive criticism. Not that one has bad breath >> or poor body oder, felt horrible, needed to be hospitalize, but >> actual information that we can all learn from. IF someone is out >> there ripping off clients.. YES PLS POST IT and share how he ripped >> you off. Others can learn from this. The poor addict in active >> addiction will learn what to look for when searching for a provider. >> Maybe it could save a life. >> >> So... to those I pissed off or stepped on... I hope this clarifies. >> >> I am about to be a part of a treatment that I will get the >> opportunity to watch a Heart monitor during the whole process. I >> expect to learn a hell of a lot by this. I would love to be able to >> share the info I might learn. To tell the truth... I fear doing >> this. I fear that those providers that think I might take a client >> from them will trash me, use the info to get me in trouble. Now >> that I am able to treat clients in a country that I don't have to >> fear my own government .... I want so badly to share what I have >> learned. Cant due to fear of these nasty providers that feel there >> are three to many providers offering this treatment will post a >> public lie about me. >> >> I am not saying that I am the best provider out there... that I am >> sure is far from the truth. I am saying that I might be of some >> use\help to other providers due to my ER work experience. I wish I >> could of stayed in the USA and offered this treatment to those in >> need. I wish I could share openly on this forum what I see on the >> EKG during the clients treatment. I wish I could share how to treat a >> seizure that may not require hospitalization. I wish I could openly >> help those providers who cant read a EKG. I wish, I wish I wish. >> Wishing wont make it happen. >> >> SO... that all. I was not trying stop valid information from being >> posted. I just would like to hear more then what was posted. All I >> learn from the complaint was that Beau is claiming to be in the >> medical field when in fact he is not. I want to know what went >> wrong, what can we all learn from the experience. >> >> I dont think that every treatment needs a MD present. I do see a >> need at times for some. There have been inquires about a tx and when >> I saw the lab work\ekg I told the client that I was not the best >> provider for him. It would be to his benefit to pay the 7500 for a MD >> to be present. I also dont think a RN needs to be present in every >> treatment. For some... maybe it would be wise. For others.. it >> probably is safe to DIY. BUt with the lack of info avail I do hear >> of many diy that could of been better if they did have a experience >> provider avail. I have seen providers come here in a panic wanting >> info while the treatment is in progress... now that is sad, depending >> on the NET to come to ones rescue when things go south..or if things >> go south. I know for myself and my treatment if I had more info that >> my first tx may have been more successful. I wish we just could >> trust and work together.... that is all I wanted to get across but >> wrote my post in hast and my true thou >> ghts were not expanded upon. >> >> So for the person who had a bad experience... I am truly sorry. >> >> >> On Jan 14, 2012, at 9:03 AM, masterhermesbathory at gmail.com wrote: >> >>> True that! >>> Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. >>> Envoy? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r?seau de >>> Bell. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >>> Sender: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:25:35 >>> To: The Ibogaine List<ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> Reply-To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >>> Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun >>> d? Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> >>> there is a lot of wrong info. on the internet,which does not give >>> credits to the spirit of the Iboga plant. >>> >>> YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IBOGA IS NOT MORE DANGEROUS THEN AN ASPIRIN! >>> >>> YOU NEED TO READ THE USER MANUAL. >>> >>> the are medical Doctors who are giving to people much to small >>> amount of Ibogaine >>> and after 36 hours are finished and they are still in withdrawals, >>> they would get >>> some of their money back after being told that the Ibogaine >>> treatment did not work for them. >>> that a person is a Doctor does not mean he cares more about the addict. >>> >>> the warning should be sign up with their name and tel. no. >>> >>> "a jungle" is the Catholic church? the school system? the health >>> system? >>> the political system? the banking system? the law system?the >>> economical system? the ecological system? the solar system? >>> and the lies of the media and of those who want us to believe they >>> KNOW better. >>> >>> life is a transformation of energy which is not in human control. >>> you can learn to have more awareness of your body >>> and soul and gain some control on your Qi level, health needs. >>> >>> discrediting people without knowing the facts first hand is bullshit! >>> >>> Sara >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >>>> published information. If the users in forums like this are unwilling >>>> to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >>>> problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements. It seems >>>> like some people like it to be a jungle. Like on the streets. If >>>> something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it out. That's >>>> your screw-up. Fuck you." But how does a junkie check things out if >>>> not through forums like this. To me the warning is plain and direct. >>>> It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down. It does >>>> not guess. It provides information that is known to the complainer. >>>> Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about what they >>>> are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read. There is >>>> no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >>>> ibogaine providers as in any field. If you want it to get better you >>>> try to weed the bad people out. If you knew a dealer was selling crap >>>> product wouldn't you tell your friends? Some of the abuse here sounds >>>> exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys. Why shit on us. >>>> Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the good guys. >>>> What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag? We're still the >>>> good guys. Leave us alone. And anyway, he was asking to be bashed. >>>> He's a junkie." There is plenty of information in the warning. The >>>> fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant. They had >>>> enough information to know that something is very wrong and they gave >>>> a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented itself as >>>> having an association with them via one of their doctors. Obviously >>>> they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >>>> facility. It's not their role to investigate further. >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 21 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:05:09 +0100 >> From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d??? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters >> Message-ID: >> <d6b20b6ee568637ee4559e81cd3ebc0d.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >> >>> POOR PROVIDER=relative. who is telling? what were their exceptions? >> >> most people read about the risks and ask around before choosing a >> provider. people are well aware of the tests they >> should do before taking the treatment, and hey guess what? I also >> refuse to treat some people. >> >> people are not all Gandi and research is manipulated to be able to >> make money, there is no news under the sun. >> >> It would be a wonderful idea to share info. that is when people would >> be living without pretending, Loving without >> depending, listening without defending, Speaking without offending... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> You know'.' I might have to back track a bit. I do think that >> this is the place and a few others that one should >>> share bad experiences of poor providers. >>> I guess what I was trying to say (though poorly) is that to come on >>> here and trash someone without the information of >>> what went wrong just bothers me. >>> >>> I do not know the person Beau. I did not see what went wrong. All >>> I could read was that something went wrong and >>> Beau is claiming to have medical experience. >>> >>> We are working with a plant that our government will not allow the >>> US to do any research on (or make it public) so >>> some trial and error will happen. We all know there are some risk >>> to using this plant for Addiction. Stuff will >>> happen. I just think it would serve us all better to know what >>> went wrong. Just to say that he had to go to the >>> hospital is so little. It could of been that he went straight from >>> Methadone\sub to iboga. It could be that he was >>> not prepared for the lethargy that happens to those who choose this >>> route. OR is could be that he didn't receive the >>> amt of medicine that was needed. So much unsaid. I am not asking >>> for the persons name or address.. just more >>> information. It that asking for too much. Not like we can take >>> that info and figure out who had the treatment. >>> >>> I think its so sad that we cant come here or somewhere and share >>> with everyone when things do go south without the >>> fear of being labeled as a poor provider. So much disinformation >>> comes to this board. So much we all need to learn >>> about this plant. >>> >>> I once had a person that I treated who was treated by another >>> provider first. This fellow was told that ''if it >>> didn't work, he could get another tx free of charge". Well hearing >>> this the addict stayed clean for three days.. >>> as soon as he returned home he began shooting dope again. I was >>> called in to help. I ask this guy why the >>> treatment didn't work... he knew that it did but was just not >>> ready. This fellow had a seizure during his >>> treatment with me. I was lucky enough to have had a IV valium ready >>> and he did not need to be taken to the ER. Why >>> I am sharing this is I should have been able to come here, share >>> what happen and how I treated him which didn't >>> need ER visit. Many non-medical providers could have learned from >>> this. Thus being a better provider and maybe >>> saving a life. But to tell the truth, I was fearful to share this >>> here. In fear that I would be labeled a poor >>> provider due to the gentleman having a seizure. This gentleman was >>> told and allowed to drink up to his treatment... >>> from what he shared with me his provider drank etoh thru out the >>> treatment also. I am aware of another provider who >>> I have great respect for as a provider. This person was under the >>> impression that three days from etoh was enough >>> time to give a safe treatment.. so not true. If I felt comfortable >>> sharing my story maybe this provider could of >>> learn by my experience and the client would NOT have had the >>> seizure. Get my point? I do know there are poor >>> providers out there. I do know that many are in this for the Money >>> only. So yes... those providers need to >>> stopped or at the least warn others about them. >>> >>> So... my post did not say what I was trying to get across. Its not >>> that I don't think that poor providers need to be >>> called out... just the opposite. But I also know that a lot of >>> trashing goes on here and by phone by a few providers. >>> These folks tell such whoppers it nearly funny. I have had clients >>> call me after talking to WELL KNOWN provider who >>> told such BIG whoppers of lies on other providers just to secure >>> that client. Now we hear that this provider has had >>> a relapse ...... for me this is no excuse for his behavior. So I am >>> a bit skeptical when it comes to trashing a >>> provider. I heard the lies that this certain provider was >>> spreading. Actually said that when the client dies the >>> body parts are sold to the black market. >>> >>> SO... I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say. NOT that I >>> don't want those that have a poor experience, or >>> ripped off, or treated by someone who cares less about ones safety. >>> I just would like to see some constructive >>> criticism. Not that one has bad breath or poor body oder, felt >>> horrible, needed to be hospitalize, but actual >>> information that we can all learn from. IF someone is out there >>> ripping off clients.. YES PLS POST IT and share how >>> he ripped you off. Others can learn from this. The poor addict in >>> active addiction will learn what to look for when >>> searching for a provider. Maybe it could save a life. >>> >>> So... to those I pissed off or stepped on... I hope this clarifies. >>> >>> I am about to be a part of a treatment that I will get the >>> opportunity to watch a Heart monitor during the whole >>> process. I expect to learn a hell of a lot by this. I would love >>> to be able to share the info I might learn. To >>> tell the truth... I fear doing this. I fear that those providers >>> that think I might take a client from them will >>> trash me, use the info to get me in trouble. Now that I am able to >>> treat clients in a country that I don't have to >>> fear my own government .... I want so badly to share what I have >>> learned. Cant due to fear of these nasty providers >>> that feel there are three to many providers offering this treatment >>> will post a public lie about me. >>> >>> I am not saying that I am the best provider out there... that I am >>> sure is far from the truth. I am saying that I >>> might be of some use\help to other providers due to my ER work >>> experience. I wish I could of stayed in the USA and >>> offered this treatment to those in need. I wish I could share >>> openly on this forum what I see on the EKG during the >>> clients treatment. I wish I could share how to treat a seizure that >>> may not require hospitalization. I wish I could >>> openly help those providers who cant read a EKG. I wish, I wish I >>> wish. Wishing wont make it happen. >>> >>> SO... that all. I was not trying stop valid information from being >>> posted. I just would like to hear more then what >>> was posted. All I learn from the complaint was that Beau is >>> claiming to be in the medical field when in fact he is >>> not. I want to know what went wrong, what can we all learn from >>> the experience. >>> >>> I dont think that every treatment needs a MD present. I do see a >>> need at times for some. There have been inquires >>> about a tx and when I saw the lab work\ekg I told the client that I >>> was not the best provider for him. It would be to >>> his benefit to pay the 7500 for a MD to be present. I also dont >>> think a RN needs to be present in every treatment. >>> For some... maybe it would be wise. For others.. it probably is >>> safe to DIY. BUt with the lack of info avail I do >>> hear of many diy that could of been better if they did have a >>> experience provider avail. I have seen providers come >>> here in a panic wanting info while the treatment is in progress... >>> now that is sad, depending on the NET to come to >>> ones rescue when things go south..or if things go south. I know for >>> myself and my treatment if I had more info that >>> my first tx may have been more successful. I wish we just could >>> trust and work together.... that is all I wanted to >>> get across but wrote my post in hast and my true thoughts were not >>> expanded upon. >>> >>> So for the person who had a bad experience... I am truly sorry. >>> >>> >>> On Jan 14, 2012, at 9:03 AM, masterhermesbathory at gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>> True that! >>>> Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. >>>> Envoy?? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r??seau >>>> de Bell. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >>>> Sender: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >>>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:25:35 >>>> To: The Ibogaine List<ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>>> Reply-To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >>>> Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun >>>> d??? Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>>> >>>> there is a lot of wrong info. on the internet,which does not give >>>> credits to the spirit of the Iboga plant. >>>> >>>> YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IBOGA IS NOT MORE DANGEROUS THEN AN >>>> ASPIRIN! >>>> >>>> YOU NEED TO READ THE USER MANUAL. >>>> >>>> the are medical Doctors who are giving to people much to small >>>> amount of Ibogaine >>>> and after 36 hours are finished and they are still in withdrawals, >>>> they would get >>>> some of their money back after being told that the Ibogaine >>>> treatment did not work for them. >>>> that a person is a Doctor does not mean he cares more about the >>>> addict. >>>> >>>> the warning should be sign up with their name and tel. no. >>>> >>>> "a jungle" is the Catholic church? the school system? the health >>>> system? >>>> the political system? the banking system? the law system?the >>>> economical system? the ecological system? the solar >>>> system? >>>> and the lies of the media and of those who want us to believe they >>>> KNOW better. >>>> >>>> life is a transformation of energy which is not in human control. >>>> you can learn to have more awareness of your body >>>> and soul and gain some control on your Qi level, health needs. >>>> >>>> discrediting people without knowing the facts first hand is bullshit! >>>> >>>> Sara >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >>>>> published information. If the users in forums like this are >>>>> unwilling >>>>> to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >>>>> problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements. It seems >>>>> like some people like it to be a jungle. Like on the streets. If >>>>> something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it out. That's >>>>> your screw-up. Fuck you." But how does a junkie check things out if >>>>> not through forums like this. To me the warning is plain and direct. >>>>> It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down. It does >>>>> not guess. It provides information that is known to the complainer. >>>>> Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about what they >>>>> are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read. There is >>>>> no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >>>>> ibogaine providers as in any field. If you want it to get better you >>>>> try to weed the bad people out. If you knew a dealer was selling >>>>> crap >>>>> product wouldn't you tell your friends? Some of the abuse here >>>>> sounds >>>>> exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys. Why shit on >>>>> us. >>>>> Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the good guys. >>>>> What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag? We're still the >>>>> good guys. Leave us alone. And anyway, he was asking to be bashed. >>>>> He's a junkie." There is plenty of information in the warning. >>>>> The >>>>> fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant. They had >>>>> enough information to know that something is very wrong and they gave >>>>> a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented itself as >>>>> having an association with them via one of their doctors. Obviously >>>>> they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >>>>> facility. It's not their role to investigate further. >>>>> >>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 22 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 07:28:15 -0800 (PST) >> From: Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d??? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters >> Message-ID: >> <1326641295.39366.YahooMailNeo at web84001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Right Sarah... that is my point.? With more information of what >> happen.. then one can decide for themselves if a poor provider is out >> there.? I have heard some wild things concerning Iboga treatments.?? >> Some I beleive and some I think the addict just was not willing to do >> thier part.? Wanting Iboga to do all the work for them. >> >> >> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Sara Glatt <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:05 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d??? >>> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters >>> >>>> POOR PROVIDER=relative. who is telling? what were their exceptions? >>> >>> most people read about the risks and ask around before choosing a >>> provider. people are well aware of the tests they >>> should do before taking the treatment, and hey guess what? I also >>> refuse to treat some people. >>> >>> people are not all Gandi and research is manipulated to be able to >>> make money, there is no news under the sun. >>> >>> It would be a wonderful idea to share info. that is when people >>> would be living without pretending, Loving without >>> depending, listening? without defending, Speaking without offending... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> You know'.'? ? I might have to back track a bit.? I do think that >>> this is the place and a few others that one should >>>> share bad experiences of poor providers. >>>> I guess what I was trying to say (though poorly) is that to come on >>>> here and trash someone without the information of >>>> what went wrong just bothers me. >>>> >>>> I do not know the person Beau.? I did not see what went wrong.? All >>>> I could read was that something went wrong and >>>> Beau is claiming to have medical experience. >>>> >>>> We are working with a plant that our government will not allow the >>>> US to do any research on (or make it public) so >>>> some trial and error will happen.? We all know there are some risk >>>> to using this plant for Addiction.? Stuff will >>>> happen.? I just think it would serve? us all better to know what >>>> went wrong.? Just to say that he had to go to the >>>> hospital is so little.? It could of been that he went straight from >>>> Methadone\sub to iboga.? It could be that he was >>>> not prepared for the lethargy that happens to those who choose this >>>> route.? OR is could be that he didn't? receive the >>>> amt of medicine that was needed.? So much unsaid.? I am not asking >>>> for the persons name or address.. just more >>>> information.? It that asking for too much.? Not like we can take >>>> that info and figure out who had the treatment. >>>> >>>> I think its so sad that we cant come here or somewhere and share >>>> with everyone when things do go south without the >>>> fear of being labeled as a poor provider.? So much disinformation >>>> comes to this board.? So much we all need to learn >>>> about this plant. >>>> >>>> ? I once had a person that I treated who was treated by another >>>> provider first.? This fellow was told that ''if it >>>> didn't work, he could get another tx free of charge".? Well hearing >>>> this the addict stayed clean for three days.. >>>> as soon as he returned home he began shooting dope again.? I was >>>> called in to help.? I ask this guy why the >>>> treatment didn't? work... he knew that it did but was just not >>>> ready.? This fellow had a? seizure during his >>>> treatment with me.? I was lucky enough to have had a IV valium >>>> ready and he did not need to be taken to the ER.? Why >>>> I am sharing this is I should have been able to come here,? share >>>> what happen and how I treated him which didn't >>>> need ER visit.? Many non-medical providers could have learned from >>>> this.? Thus being a better provider and maybe >>>> saving a life.? But to tell the truth, I was fearful to share this >>>> here.? In fear that I would be labeled a poor >>>> provider due to the gentleman having a seizure.? This gentleman was >>>> told and allowed to drink up to his treatment... >>>> from what he shared with me his provider drank etoh thru out the >>>> treatment also. I am aware of another provider who >>>> I have great respect for as a provider.? This person was under the >>>> impression that three days from etoh was enough >>>> time to give a safe treatment.. so not true.? If I felt comfortable >>>> sharing my story maybe this provider could of >>>> learn by my experience and the client would NOT have had the >>>> seizure.? Get my point?? I do know there are poor >>>> providers out there.? I do know that many? are in this for the >>>> Money only.? So yes... those providers need to >>>> stopped or at the least warn others about them. >>>> >>>> So... my post did not say what I was trying to get across.? Its not >>>> that I don't think that poor providers need to be >>>> called out... just the opposite.? But I also know that a lot of >>>> trashing goes on here and by phone by a few providers. >>>> ? These folks tell such whoppers it nearly funny.? I have had >>>> clients call me after talking to WELL KNOWN provider who >>>> told such BIG whoppers of lies on other providers just to secure >>>> that client.? Now we hear that this provider has had >>>> a relapse ...... for me this is no excuse for his behavior.? So I >>>> am a bit skeptical when it comes to trashing a >>>> provider.? I heard the lies that this certain provider was >>>> spreading.? Actually said that when the client dies the >>>> body parts are sold to the black market. >>>> >>>> SO... I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.? NOT that I >>>> don't want those that have a poor experience, or >>>> ripped off, or treated by someone who cares less about ones >>>> safety.? I just would like to see some constructive >>>> criticism.? Not that one has bad breath or poor body oder, felt >>>> horrible, needed to be hospitalize, but actual >>>> information that we can all learn from.? IF someone is out there >>>> ripping off clients.. YES PLS POST IT and share how >>>> he ripped you off.? Others can learn from this.? The poor addict in >>>> active addiction will learn what to look for when >>>> searching for a provider.? Maybe it could save a life. >>>> >>>> So... to those I pissed off or stepped on... I hope this clarifies. >>>> >>>> I am about to be a part of a treatment that I will get the >>>> opportunity to watch a Heart monitor during the whole >>>> process.? I expect to learn a hell of a lot by this.? I would love >>>> to be able to share the info I might learn.? To >>>> tell the truth... I fear doing this.? I fear that those providers >>>> that think I might take a client from them will >>>> trash me, use the info to get me in trouble.? Now that I am able to >>>> treat clients in a country that I don't have to >>>> fear my own government .... I want so badly to share what I have >>>> learned.? Cant due to fear of these nasty providers >>>> that feel there are three to many providers offering this treatment >>>> will post a public lie about me. >>>> >>>> I am not saying that I am the best provider out there... that I am >>>> sure is far from the truth.? I am saying that I >>>> might be of some use\help to other providers due to my ER work >>>> experience.? ? I wish I could of stayed in the USA and >>>> offered this treatment to those in need.? I wish I could share >>>> openly on this forum what I see on the EKG during the >>>> clients treatment.? I wish I could share how to treat a seizure >>>> that may not require hospitalization.? I wish I could >>>> openly help those providers who cant read a EKG.? I wish, I wish I >>>> wish.? Wishing wont make it happen. >>>> >>>> SO... that all.? I was not trying stop valid information from being >>>> posted.? I just would like to hear more then what >>>> was posted.? All I learn from the complaint was? that Beau is >>>> claiming to be in the medical field when in fact he is >>>> not.? I want to know what went wrong, what can we? all learn from >>>> the experience. >>>> >>>> I dont think that every treatment needs a MD present.? I do see a >>>> need at times for some.? There have been inquires >>>> about a tx and when I saw the lab work\ekg I told the client that I >>>> was not the best provider for him.? It would be to >>>> his benefit to pay the 7500 for a MD to be present. I also dont >>>> think a RN needs to be present in every treatment. >>>> For some... maybe it would be wise.? For others.. it probably is >>>> safe to DIY.? BUt with the lack of info avail I do >>>> hear of many diy that could of been better if they did have a >>>> experience provider avail.? I have seen providers? come >>>> here in a panic wanting info while the treatment is in progress... >>>> now that is sad, depending on the NET to come to >>>> ones rescue when things go south..or if things go south.? I know >>>> for myself and my treatment if I had more info that >>>> my first tx may have been more successful.? I wish we just could >>>> trust and work together....? that is all I wanted to >>>> get across but wrote my post in hast and my true thoughts were not >>>> expanded upon. >>>> >>>> So for the person who had a bad experience... I am truly sorry. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 14, 2012, at 9:03 AM, masterhermesbathory at gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> True that! >>>>> Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. >>>>> Envoy? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r?seau >>>>> de Bell. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >>>>> Sender: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:25:35 >>>>> To: The Ibogaine List<ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>>>> Reply-To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >>>>> Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun >>>>> d? Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>>>> >>>>> there is a lot of wrong info. on the internet,which does not give >>>>> credits to the spirit of the Iboga plant. >>>>> >>>>> YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IBOGA IS NOT MORE DANGEROUS THEN AN >>>>> ASPIRIN! >>>>> >>>>> YOU? NEED TO READ THE USER MANUAL. >>>>> >>>>> the are medical Doctors who are giving to people much to small >>>>> amount of Ibogaine >>>>> and after 36 hours are finished and they are still in withdrawals, >>>>> they would get >>>>> some of their money back after being told that the Ibogaine >>>>> treatment did not work for them. >>>>> that a person is a Doctor does not mean he cares more about the >>>>> addict. >>>>> >>>>> the warning should be sign up with their name and tel. no. >>>>> >>>>> "a jungle" is the Catholic church? the school system? the health >>>>> system? >>>>> the political system? the banking system? the law system?the >>>>> economical system? the ecological system? the solar >>>>> system? >>>>> ? and the lies of the media and of those who want us to believe >>>>> they KNOW better. >>>>> >>>>> life is a transformation of energy which is not in human control. >>>>> you can learn to have more awareness of your body >>>>> and soul and gain some control on your Qi level, health needs. >>>>> >>>>> discrediting people without knowing the facts first hand is bullshit! >>>>> >>>>> Sara >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >>>>>> published information.? If the users in forums like this are >>>>>> unwilling >>>>>> to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >>>>>> problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements.? It >>>>>> seems >>>>>> like some people like it to be a jungle.? Like on the streets.? If >>>>>> something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it out. That's >>>>>> your screw-up.? Fuck you."? But how does a junkie check things >>>>>> out if >>>>>> not through forums like this.? To me the warning is plain and >>>>>> direct. >>>>>> It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down.? It does >>>>>> not guess.? It provides information that is known to the complainer. >>>>>> Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about what they >>>>>> are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read.? There is >>>>>> no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >>>>>> ibogaine providers as in any field.? If you want it to get better >>>>>> you >>>>>> try to weed the bad people out.? If you knew a dealer was selling >>>>>> crap >>>>>> product wouldn't you tell your friends?? Some of the abuse here >>>>>> sounds >>>>>> exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys.? Why shit >>>>>> on us. >>>>>> Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the good guys. >>>>>> What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag?? We're still the >>>>>> good guys.? Leave us alone.? And anyway, he was asking to be bashed. >>>>>> He's a junkie."? ? There is plenty of information in the >>>>>> warning.? The >>>>>> fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant.? They had >>>>>> enough information to know that something is very wrong and they >>>>>> gave >>>>>> a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented itself as >>>>>> having an association with them via one of their doctors.? Obviously >>>>>> they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >>>>>> facility.? It's not their role to investigate further. >>>>>> >>>>>> ? -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>>> (][%]? :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::? [%][) >>>>>> ? -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ? -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>> (][%]? :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::? [%][) >>>>> ? -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>> >>>>> ? -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>> (][%]? :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::? [%][) >>>>> ? -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>>> ? -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%]? :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::? [%][) >>>> ? -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ? -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%]? :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::? [%][) >>> ? -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120115/04935427/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 23 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 10:56:15 -0500 >> From: Mikki Lynne <xxmikkixx at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? >> Message-ID: <925437F2-1591-4FB6-959B-5311DE9FA64E at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> An Opana in my NoDoz... It's like Willy Wonka's golden ticket contest >> for junkies... Oh and any truck drivers out there? A minor wreck, a >> NoDoz lawsuit... set for life. >> >> On Jan 15, 2012, at 5:00 AM, Vector Vector >> <vector620022002 at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/09/health/drug-mix-up-fda/index.html >>> >>> Consumers warned about possible drug mix-up >>> >>> Novartis issues massive pill recall >>> (CNN) -- Machinery problems at a drug manufacturing plant prompted >>> the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to warn patients of a possible >>> mix-up affecting various prescription pain medications and >>> over-the-counter drugs. >>> >>> The FDA is advising patients who use certain prescription >>> medications produced by Endo Pharmaceuticals to visually inspect >>> their pills. And consumers who have select bottles of Excedrin, >>> Bufferin, NoDoz and Gas-X, produced by Novartis, are being told to >>> discard or return the products in a voluntary recall that started >>> Sunday. >>> >>> The over-the-counter drugs involved in the recall were manufactured >>> at a Lincoln, Nebraska, facility which also produced various >>> prescription pain medicines for Endo Pharmaceuticals, according to >>> the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. These pills include Percocet, >>> Opana and Percodan. >>> >>> "Due to problems that occurred when these products were packaged and >>> labeled at the site, it's possible that tablets from one product may >>> have been retained in the packaging machinery and then may have >>> carried over into the packaging of another product," said Dr. Edward >>> Cox, director of the Office of Antimicrobial Products, Office of New >>> Drugs, Center for Drug Evaluation of Research for the FDA. >>> >>> "This could result in an incorrect pill ending up in the bottle of >>> another product. The likelihood of this occurring in medication >>> dispensed in patients is estimated to be low," he added. >>> >>> The prescription opioids could have ended up in the bottle of >>> another prescription drug or over-the-counter products, although >>> "the risk of pills ending up in the wrong bottle is a rare event," >>> according to the FDA. >>> >>> There have been no reports of adverse events due to this problem, >>> Cox said. >>> >>> Patients who take an affected Endo Pharmaceuticals products should >>> visually inspect all the pills in their bottles, according to the >>> company and FDA. Endo Pharmaceuticals posted pictures of the >>> products on their web page for tablet identifications. >>> >>> The products listed there: Opana ER (oxymorphone hydrochloride) >>> extended-release tablets CII; Opana (oxymorphone hydrochloride) >>> tablets CII; oxymorphone hydrochloride tablets CII; Percocet >>> (oxycodone hydrochloride and acetaminophen USP) tablets CII; >>> Percodan (oxycodone hydrochloride and aspirin, USP) tablets CII; >>> Endocet (oxycodone hydrochloride and acetaminophen USP) tablets CII; >>> Endodan (oxycodone hydrochloride and aspirin, USP) tablets CII; >>> Morphine Sulfate Extended-Release Tablets CII; and Zydone >>> (hydrocodone bitartrate/acetaminophen tablets, USP) CIII. >>> >>> "We are asking patients to check their medicines, to look for any >>> tablets of a different size, shape or color from their regular >>> medicine," Cox said. "If they find any tablets that are different, >>> stop taking the pain medication and take the medicine to the >>> pharmacy. We are telling patients to look carefully at all tablets >>> in pain medication bottle." >>> >>> Patients who have questions should contact Endo Pharmaceuticals or >>> their doctors, he advised. >>> >>> Pharmacists are also being asked to "visually inspect and verify the >>> identity of all tablets dispensed," Cox said. >>> >>> "The likelihood of finding a wrong pill in an opioid pain medication >>> is low," he said. "Patients should not be alarmed. These steps we're >>> recommending are additional steps we are recommending to further >>> reduce an already low likelihood of medication mix-up." >>> >>> The Nebraska plant has been temporarily shut down, which could cause >>> drug shortages and disruptions in the supply chain for Endo >>> Pharmaceuticals. >>> >>> "We anticipate that there may be a short-term disruption in the >>> supply of these products to patients. This temporary supply >>> disruption is not related to the efficacy or safety of these >>> products," according to the company. >>> >>> "We are not aware of any patient having experienced a confirmed >>> product mix-up and there have been no adverse events attributable to >>> a product mix-up. We believe the likelihood of product mix-up >>> reaching a patient is remote," according to the company. >>> >>> The over-the-counter items involved in the Novartis recall include >>> Excedrin and NoDoz products with expiration dates of December 20, >>> 2014, or earlier, as well as Bufferin and Gas-X products with >>> December 20, 2013, or earlier expiration dates. >>> >>> Novartis had suspended operations at, and shipments from, the >>> Lincoln, Nebraska, facility. The company said this was done "to >>> accelerate maintenance" and make other improvements, adding that it >>> currently "is not possible" to determine when the plant will reopen. >>> >>> Consumers who have the affected products can contact Novartis >>> Consumer Relationship Center or try to obtain a refund. >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120115/3f438207/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 24 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:07:37 -0800 >> From: cbava108 at gmail.com >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: >> <CABg8pxCGpOLFQSmh+YUxV6CqcmyvYJQLcT4oH=Nxpig6fds=+w at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> If the providers within a certain geographic area would join forces and >> unify rather than use smear tactics to land clients they'd soon realize >> what most people who understand business and marketing have learned long >> ago. Similar businesses practicing in the same area attract more >> interest >> and customers (and there are more than enough clients to go around!) and >> thrashing others to secure a client here and there is eventually >> counter-productive, sooner or later you'll end up looking just like the >> asshole that you are, and will result in losing customers ... what I >> predict and hope will end up happening with Mr. Mason and his ilk. That >> said, if it were me, I'd share and publish whatever I could and welcome >> those who fashion lies and use smear tactics to have their day ... the >> truth will soon become obvious. I think withholding knowledge is >> capitulating to the creeps, they want to keep your light from >> shining. Fuck >> that! >> >> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:14 AM, sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> You know'.' I might have to back track a bit. I do think that >>> this is >>> the place and a few others that one should share bad experiences of >>> poor >>> providers. >>> I guess what I was trying to say (though poorly) is that to come on >>> here >>> and trash someone without the information of what went wrong just >>> bothers >>> me. >>> >>> I do not know the person Beau. I did not see what went wrong. All I >>> could read was that something went wrong and Beau is claiming to have >>> medical experience. >>> >>> We are working with a plant that our government will not allow the >>> US to >>> do any research on (or make it public) so some trial and error will >>> happen. >>> We all know there are some risk to using this plant for Addiction. >>> Stuff >>> will happen. I just think it would serve us all better to know >>> what went >>> wrong. Just to say that he had to go to the hospital is so >>> little. It >>> could of been that he went straight from Methadone\sub to iboga. >>> It could >>> be that he was not prepared for the lethargy that happens to those who >>> choose this route. OR is could be that he didn't receive the amt of >>> medicine that was needed. So much unsaid. I am not asking for the >>> persons >>> name or address.. just more information. It that asking for too much. >>> Not like we can take that info and figure out who had the treatment. >>> >>> I think its so sad that we cant come here or somewhere and share with >>> everyone when things do go south without the fear of being labeled as a >>> poor provider. So much disinformation comes to this board. So much >>> we all >>> need to learn about this plant. >>> >>> I once had a person that I treated who was treated by another provider >>> first. This fellow was told that ''if it didn't work, he could get >>> another tx free of charge". Well hearing this the addict stayed >>> clean for >>> three days.. as soon as he returned home he began shooting dope >>> again. I >>> was called in to help. I ask this guy why the treatment didn't >>> work... he >>> knew that it did but was just not ready. This fellow had a seizure >>> during >>> his treatment with me. I was lucky enough to have had a IV valium >>> ready >>> and he did not need to be taken to the ER. Why I am sharing this is I >>> should have been able to come here, share what happen and how I >>> treated >>> him which didn't need ER visit. Many non-medical providers could have >>> learned from this. Thus being a better provider and maybe saving a >>> life. >>> But to tell the truth, I was fearful to share this here. In fear >>> that I >>> would be labeled a poor provider due to the gentleman having a seizure. >>> This gentleman was told and allowed to drink up to his treatment... >>> from >>> what he shared with me his provider drank etoh thru out the >>> treatment also. >>> I am aware of another provider who I have great respect for as a >>> provider. >>> This person was under the impression that three days from etoh was >>> enough >>> time to give a safe treatment.. so not true. If I felt comfortable >>> sharing >>> my story maybe this provider could of learn by my experience and the >>> client >>> would NOT have had the seizure. Get my point? I do know there are >>> poor >>> providers out there. I do know that many are in this for the Money >>> only. >>> So yes... those providers need to stopped or at the least warn others >>> about them. >>> >>> So... my post did not say what I was trying to get across. Its not >>> that I >>> don't think that poor providers need to be called out... just the >>> opposite. >>> But I also know that a lot of trashing goes on here and by phone by >>> a few >>> providers. These folks tell such whoppers it nearly funny. I have had >>> clients call me after talking to WELL KNOWN provider who told such BIG >>> whoppers of lies on other providers just to secure that client. Now we >>> hear that this provider has had a relapse ...... for me this is no >>> excuse >>> for his behavior. So I am a bit skeptical when it comes to trashing a >>> provider. I heard the lies that this certain provider was spreading. >>> Actually said that when the client dies the body parts are sold to the >>> black market. >>> >>> SO... I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say. NOT that I don't >>> want those that have a poor experience, or ripped off, or treated by >>> someone who cares less about ones safety. I just would like to see >>> some >>> constructive criticism. Not that one has bad breath or poor body oder, >>> felt horrible, needed to be hospitalize, but actual information that >>> we can >>> all learn from. IF someone is out there ripping off clients.. YES >>> PLS POST >>> IT and share how he ripped you off. Others can learn from this. >>> The poor >>> addict in active addiction will learn what to look for when >>> searching for a >>> provider. Maybe it could save a life. >>> >>> So... to those I pissed off or stepped on... I hope this clarifies. >>> >>> I am about to be a part of a treatment that I will get the >>> opportunity to >>> watch a Heart monitor during the whole process. I expect to learn a >>> hell >>> of a lot by this. I would love to be able to share the info I might >>> learn. >>> To tell the truth... I fear doing this. I fear that those >>> providers that >>> think I might take a client from them will trash me, use the info to >>> get me >>> in trouble. Now that I am able to treat clients in a country that >>> I don't >>> have to fear my own government .... I want so badly to share what I >>> have >>> learned. Cant due to fear of these nasty providers that feel there are >>> three to many providers offering this treatment will post a public lie >>> about me. >>> >>> I am not saying that I am the best provider out there... that I am >>> sure is >>> far from the truth. I am saying that I might be of some use\help to >>> other >>> providers due to my ER work experience. I wish I could of stayed >>> in the >>> USA and offered this treatment to those in need. I wish I could share >>> openly on this forum what I see on the EKG during the clients >>> treatment. I >>> wish I could share how to treat a seizure that may not require >>> hospitalization. I wish I could openly help those providers who >>> cant read >>> a EKG. I wish, I wish I wish. Wishing wont make it happen. >>> >>> SO... that all. I was not trying stop valid information from being >>> posted. I just would like to hear more then what was posted. All >>> I learn >>> from the complaint was that Beau is claiming to be in the medical >>> field >>> when in fact he is not. I want to know what went wrong, what can >>> we all >>> learn from the experience. >>> >>> I dont think that every treatment needs a MD present. I do see a >>> need at >>> times for some. There have been inquires about a tx and when I saw >>> the lab >>> work\ekg I told the client that I was not the best provider for >>> him. It >>> would be to his benefit to pay the 7500 for a MD to be present. I >>> also dont >>> think a RN needs to be present in every treatment. For some... >>> maybe it >>> would be wise. For others.. it probably is safe to DIY. BUt with >>> the lack >>> of info avail I do hear of many diy that could of been better if >>> they did >>> have a experience provider avail. I have seen providers come here >>> in a >>> panic wanting info while the treatment is in progress... now that is >>> sad, >>> depending on the NET to come to ones rescue when things go south..or if >>> things go south. I know for myself and my treatment if I had more info >>> that my first tx may have been more successful. I wish we just >>> could trust >>> and work together.... that is all I wanted to get across but wrote >>> my post >>> in hast and my true thoughts were not expanded upon. >>> >>> So for the person who had a bad experience... I am truly sorry. >>> >>> >>> On Jan 14, 2012, at 9:03 AM, masterhermesbathory at gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> > True that! >>> > Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. >>> > Envoy? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r?seau >>> de > Bell. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >>> > Sender: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >>> > Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:25:35 >>> > To: The Ibogaine List<ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> > Reply-To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >>> > Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun >>> > d? Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> > >>> > there is a lot of wrong info. on the internet,which does not give >>> > credits to the spirit of the Iboga plant. >>> > >>> > YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IBOGA IS NOT MORE DANGEROUS THEN AN >>> ASPIRIN! >>> > >>> > YOU NEED TO READ THE USER MANUAL. >>> > >>> > the are medical Doctors who are giving to people much to small >>> amount > of >>> Ibogaine >>> > and after 36 hours are finished and they are still in withdrawals, >>> they >>> would get >>> > some of their money back after being told that the Ibogaine treatment >>> did not work for them. >>> > that a person is a Doctor does not mean he cares more about the >>> addict. >>> > >>> > the warning should be sign up with their name and tel. no. >>> > >>> > "a jungle" is the Catholic church? the school system? the health > >>> system? >>> > the political system? the banking system? the law system?the >>> economical >>> system? the ecological system? the solar system? >>> > and the lies of the media and of those who want us to believe >>> they > KNOW >>> better. >>> > >>> > life is a transformation of energy which is not in human control. you >>> can learn to have more awareness of your body >>> > and soul and gain some control on your Qi level, health needs. >>> > >>> > discrediting people without knowing the facts first hand is bullshit! >>> > >>> > Sara >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >>> >> published information. If the users in forums like this are >>> unwilling >>> >> to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >>> >> problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements. It >>> seems >>> >> like some people like it to be a jungle. Like on the streets. If >>> >> something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it out. That's >>> >> your screw-up. Fuck you." But how does a junkie check things >>> out if >>> >> not through forums like this. To me the warning is plain and >>> direct. >>> >> It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down. It does >>> >> not guess. It provides information that is known to the complainer. >>> >> Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about what they >>> >> are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read. There is >>> >> no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >>> >> ibogaine providers as in any field. If you want it to get better >>> you >>> >> try to weed the bad people out. If you knew a dealer was selling >>> crap >>> >> product wouldn't you tell your friends? Some of the abuse here >>> sounds >>> >> exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys. Why shit >>> on us. >>> >> Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the good guys. >>> >> What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag? We're still the >>> >> good guys. Leave us alone. And anyway, he was asking to be bashed. >>> >> He's a junkie." There is plenty of information in the >>> warning. The >>> >> fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant. They had >>> >> enough information to know that something is very wrong and they >>> gave >>> >> a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented itself as >>> >> having an association with them via one of their doctors. Obviously >>> >> they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >>> >> facility. It's not their role to investigate further. >>> >> >>> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> > >>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120115/31fc998e/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 25 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 10:07:43 -0800 (PST) >> From: Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: >> <1326650863.89259.YahooMailNeo at web84007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I just dont ever see that happening... for many reasons.? Some take a >> strick spirital approach, some mix spiritual with medical, some are >> using themselves or have those around "helping" while under the >> influence.? After all... most that work with this plant are in >> recovery themselves... I am for one.? Some claim to be but not.? I >> could not work side by side with someone using.. esp opiates.? For my >> own safety and my clients safety. >> Some clients want nothing to do with the Bwitte religion.? Some >> pretent to be or are want=a=be's bwitte.? I am not of that culture >> nor am I willing to pretend to be.? So many different personalities, >> so many ways to approach this tool.? Dont get me wrong.? I am glad of >> the different personalities.. it gives a choice to the client.? So >> there will always be differences in treatment. >> I think the most important thing is to keep this plant available to >> the public.? Make noise about it when able.? Go to the drug forums >> and share what you know about it.? When someone contacts me and want >> a Bwitti style tx I wish I knew of someone who was avail.? We are all >> part of a vast universe.? What works for me wont nessa work for >> another.? When I had my treatment I wanted NO part of the dressing >> like the dead, dont understand it and not my culture.? I have since >> learn a bit about the Bwitti tribe and its beliefs but that dosnt >> make me one of them. >> For me... it helps me stay clean working with this plant.? Nothing >> better then to remind me where I was and that I never want to go back >> there. >> ? >> Well... thats really all I have to say about the matter.? So I hope i >> did get my point across.? I hope that even though we may not work in >> the same matter the goal is all the same, I hope we can put aside our >> difference and help each other, Chris is so right in that there are >> way too many addicts to pull from.? We dont need to fight over a >> client or tear down another just for that pocket change.? Now for me >> 7500 is a bit more then pocket change.. but for a MD.. its not. >> >> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "cbava108 at gmail.com" <cbava108 at gmail.com> >>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:07 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >>> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> >>> >>> If the providers within a certain geographic area would join forces >>> and unify rather than use smear tactics to land clients they'd soon >>> realize what most people who understand business and marketing have >>> learned long ago. Similar?businesses practicing in the same area >>> attract more interest and customers (and there are more than enough >>> clients to go around!) and thrashing others to secure a client here >>> and there is eventually counter-productive, sooner or later you'll >>> end up looking just like the asshole that you are, and will result >>> in losing customers ... what I predict and hope will end up >>> happening with Mr. Mason and his ilk.?That said, if it were me, I'd >>> share and publish whatever I could and welcome those who fashion >>> lies and use smear tactics to have their day ... the truth will soon >>> become obvious. I think withholding knowledge is capitulating to the >>> creeps, they want to keep your light from shining. Fuck that! >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:14 AM, sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> You know'.' ? ? I might have to back track a bit. ?I do think that >>> this is the place and a few others that one should share bad >>> experiences of poor providers. >>>> I guess what I was trying to say (though poorly) is that to come on >>>> here and trash someone without the information of what went wrong >>>> just bothers me. >>>> >>>> I do not know the person Beau. ?I did not see what went wrong. ?All >>>> I could read was that something went wrong and Beau is claiming to >>>> have medical experience. >>>> >>>> We are working with a plant that our government will not allow the >>>> US to do any research on (or make it public) so some trial and >>>> error will happen. ?We all know there are some risk to using this >>>> plant for Addiction. ?Stuff will happen. ?I just think it would >>>> serve ?us all better to know what went wrong. ? Just to say that he >>>> had to go to the hospital is so little. ?It could of been that he >>>> went straight from Methadone\sub to iboga. ? It could be that he >>>> was not prepared for the lethargy that happens to those who choose >>>> this route. ?OR is could be that he didn't ?receive the amt of >>>> medicine that was needed. ?So much unsaid. ?I am not asking for the >>>> persons name or address.. just more information. ?It that asking >>>> for too much. ? Not like we can take that info and figure out who >>>> had the treatment. >>>> >>>> I think its so sad that we cant come here or somewhere and share >>>> with everyone when things do go south without the fear of being >>>> labeled as a poor provider. ?So much disinformation comes to this >>>> board. ?So much we all need to learn about this plant. >>>> >>>> ?I once had a person that I treated who was treated by another >>>> provider first. ? This fellow was told that ''if it didn't work, he >>>> could get another tx free of charge". ? Well hearing this the >>>> addict stayed clean for three days.. as soon as he returned home he >>>> began shooting dope again. ?I was called in to help. ?I ask this >>>> guy why the treatment didn't ?work... he knew that it did but was >>>> just not ready. ?This fellow had a ?seizure during his treatment >>>> with me. ?I was lucky enough to have had a IV valium ready and he >>>> did not need to be taken to the ER. ?Why I am sharing this is I >>>> should have been able to come here, ?share what happen and how I >>>> treated him which didn't ?need ER visit. ?Many non-medical >>>> providers could have learned from this. ?Thus being a better >>>> provider and maybe saving a life. ?But to tell the truth, I was >>>> fearful to share this here. ?In fear that I would be labeled a poor >>>> provider due to the gentleman having a >> seizure. ?This gentleman was told and allowed to drink up to his >> treatment... from what he shared with me his provider drank etoh thru >> out the treatment also. I am aware of another provider who I have >> great respect for as a provider. ?This person was under the >> impression that three days from etoh was enough time to give a safe >> treatment.. so not true. ?If I felt comfortable sharing my story >> maybe this provider could of learn by my experience and the client >> would NOT have had the seizure. ?Get my point? ?I do know there are >> poor providers out there. ?I do know that many ?are in this for the >> Money only. ?So yes... those providers need to stopped or at the >> least warn others about them. >>>> >>>> So... my post did not say what I was trying to get across. ?Its not >>>> that I don't think that poor providers need to be called out... >>>> just the opposite. ?But I also know that a lot of trashing goes on >>>> here and by phone by a few providers. ?These folks tell such >>>> whoppers it nearly funny. ?I have had clients call me after talking >>>> to WELL KNOWN provider who told such BIG whoppers of lies on other >>>> providers just to secure that client. ?Now we hear that this >>>> provider has had a relapse ...... for me this is no excuse for his >>>> behavior. ?So I am a bit skeptical when it comes to trashing a >>>> provider. ?I heard the lies that this certain provider was >>>> spreading. ?Actually said that when the client dies the body parts >>>> are sold to the black market. >>>> >>>> SO... I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say. ?NOT that I >>>> don't want those that have a poor experience, or ripped off, or >>>> treated by someone who cares less about ones safety. ?I just would >>>> like to see some constructive criticism. ?Not that one has bad >>>> breath or poor body oder, felt horrible, needed to be hospitalize, >>>> but actual information that we can all learn from. ?IF someone is >>>> out there ripping off clients.. YES PLS POST IT and share how he >>>> ripped you off. ?Others can learn from this. ?The poor addict in >>>> active addiction will learn what to look for when searching for a >>>> provider. ?Maybe it could save a life. >>>> >>>> So... to those I pissed off or stepped on... I hope this clarifies. >>>> >>>> I am about to be a part of a treatment that I will get the >>>> opportunity to watch a Heart monitor during the whole process. ?I >>>> expect to learn a hell of a lot by this. ?I would love to be able >>>> to share the info I might learn. ?To tell the truth... I fear doing >>>> this. ?I fear that those providers that think I might take a client >>>> from them will trash me, use the info to get me in trouble. ? Now >>>> that I am able to treat clients in a country that I don't have to >>>> fear my own government .... I want so badly to share what I have >>>> learned. ?Cant due to fear of these nasty providers that feel there >>>> are three to many providers offering this treatment will post a >>>> public lie about me. >>>> >>>> I am not saying that I am the best provider out there... that I am >>>> sure is far from the truth. ?I am saying that I might be of some >>>> use\help to other providers due to my ER work experience. ? ?I wish >>>> I could of stayed in the USA and offered this treatment to those in >>>> need. ?I wish I could share openly on this forum what I see on the >>>> EKG during the clients treatment. ?I wish I could share how to >>>> treat a seizure that may not require hospitalization. ? I wish I >>>> could openly help those providers who cant read a EKG. ?I wish, I >>>> wish I wish. ?Wishing wont make it happen. >>>> >>>> SO... that all. ?I was not trying stop valid information from being >>>> posted. ? I just would like to hear more then what was posted. ?All >>>> I learn from the complaint was ?that Beau is claiming to be in the >>>> medical field when in fact he is not. ?I want to know what went >>>> wrong, what can we ?all learn from the experience. >>>> >>>> I dont think that every treatment needs a MD present. ?I do see a >>>> need at times for some. ?There have been inquires about a tx and >>>> when I saw the lab work\ekg I told the client that I was not the >>>> best provider for him. ?It would be to his benefit to pay the 7500 >>>> for a MD to be present. I also dont think a RN needs to be present >>>> in every treatment. ?For some... maybe it would be wise. ?For >>>> others.. it probably is safe to DIY. ?BUt with the lack of info >>>> avail I do hear of many diy that could of been better if they did >>>> have a experience provider avail. ? I have seen providers ?come >>>> here in a panic wanting info while the treatment is in progress... >>>> now that is sad, depending on the NET to come to ones rescue when >>>> things go south..or if things go south. ?I know for myself and my >>>> treatment if I had more info that my first tx may have been more >>>> successful. ?I wish we just could trust and work together.... ?that >>>> is all I wanted to get across but >> wrote my post in hast and my true thoughts were not expanded upon. >>>> >>>> So for the person who had a bad experience... I am truly sorry. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 14, 2012, at 9:03 AM, masterhermesbathory at gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> True that! >>>>> Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. >>>>> Envoy? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r?seau >>>>> de Bell. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >>>>> Sender: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:25:35 >>>>> To: The Ibogaine List<ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>>>> Reply-To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >>>>> Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun >>>>> d? Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>>>> >>>>> there is a lot of wrong info. on the internet,which does not give >>>>> credits to the spirit of the Iboga plant. >>>>> >>>>> YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IBOGA IS NOT MORE DANGEROUS THEN AN >>>>> ASPIRIN! >>>>> >>>>> YOU ?NEED TO READ THE USER MANUAL. >>>>> >>>>> the are medical Doctors who are giving to people much to small >>>>> amount of Ibogaine >>>>> and after 36 hours are finished and they are still in withdrawals, >>>>> they would get >>>>> some of their money back after being told that the Ibogaine >>>>> treatment did not work for them. >>>>> that a person is a Doctor does not mean he cares more about the >>>>> addict. >>>>> >>>>> the warning should be sign up with their name and tel. no. >>>>> >>>>> "a jungle" is the Catholic church? the school system? the health >>>>> system? >>>>> the political system? the banking system? the law system?the >>>>> economical system? the ecological system? the solar system? >>>>> ?and the lies of the media and of those who want us to believe >>>>> they KNOW better. >>>>> >>>>> life is a transformation of energy which is not in human control. >>>>> you can learn to have more awareness of your body >>>>> and soul and gain some control on your Qi level, health needs. >>>>> >>>>> discrediting people without knowing the facts first hand is bullshit! >>>>> >>>>> Sara >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >>>>>> published information. ?If the users in forums like this are >>>>>> unwilling >>>>>> to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >>>>>> problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements. ?It >>>>>> seems >>>>>> like some people like it to be a jungle. ?Like on the streets. ?If >>>>>> something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it out. That's >>>>>> your screw-up. ?Fuck you." ?But how does a junkie check things >>>>>> out if >>>>>> not through forums like this. ?To me the warning is plain and >>>>>> direct. >>>>>> It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down. ?It does >>>>>> not guess. ?It provides information that is known to the complainer. >>>>>> Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about what they >>>>>> are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read. ?There is >>>>>> no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >>>>>> ibogaine providers as in any field. ?If you want it to get better >>>>>> you >>>>>> try to weed the bad people out. ?If you knew a dealer was selling >>>>>> crap >>>>>> product wouldn't you tell your friends? ?Some of the abuse here >>>>>> sounds >>>>>> exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys. ?Why shit >>>>>> on us. >>>>>> Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the good guys. >>>>>> What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag? ?We're still the >>>>>> good guys. ?Leave us alone. ?And anyway, he was asking to be bashed. >>>>>> He's a junkie." ? ?There is plenty of information in the warning. >>>>>> ?The >>>>>> fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant. ?They had >>>>>> enough information to know that something is very wrong and they >>>>>> gave >>>>>> a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented itself as >>>>>> having an association with them via one of their doctors. ?Obviously >>>>>> they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >>>>>> facility. ?It's not their role to investigate further. >>>>>> >>>>>> ?-=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>>> (][%] ?:: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: ?[%][) >>>>>> ?-=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ?-=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>> (][%] ?:: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: ?[%][) >>>>> ?-=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>> >>>>> ?-=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>> (][%] ?:: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: ?[%][) >>>>> ?-=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>>> ?-=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] ?:: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: ?[%][) >>>> ?-=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>> >>> >>> ? -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%]? :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::? [%][) >>> ? -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120115/8083fa4e/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 26 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:53:07 -0700 >> From: Edward W <edwardw at mtciep.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: <4F134AC3.8020500 at mtciep.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed >> >> Well said Chris, I have to agree >> >> ___________________ >> Edward >> edwardw at mtciep.com >> >> >> >> >> >> On 1/15/2012 10:07 AM, cbava108 at gmail.com wrote: >>> If the providers within a certain geographic area would join forces >>> and unify rather than use smear tactics to land clients they'd soon >>> realize what most people who understand business and marketing have >>> learned long ago. Similar businesses practicing in the same area >>> attract more interest and customers (and there are more than enough >>> clients to go around!) and thrashing others to secure a client here >>> and there is eventually counter-productive, sooner or later you'll end >>> up looking just like the asshole that you are, and will result in >>> losing customers ... what I predict and hope will end up happening >>> with Mr. Mason and his ilk. That said, if it were me, I'd share and >>> publish whatever I could and welcome those who fashion lies and use >>> smear tactics to have their day ... the truth will soon become >>> obvious. I think withholding knowledge is capitulating to the creeps, >>> they want to keep your light from shining. Fuck that! >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:14 AM, sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com >>> <mailto:sistereboga at yahoo.com>> wrote: >>> >>> You know'.' I might have to back track a bit. I do think that >>> this is the place and a few others that one should share bad >>> experiences of poor providers. >>> I guess what I was trying to say (though poorly) is that to come >>> on here and trash someone without the information of what went >>> wrong just bothers me. >>> >>> I do not know the person Beau. I did not see what went wrong. >>> All I could read was that something went wrong and Beau is >>> claiming to have medical experience. >>> >>> We are working with a plant that our government will not allow the >>> US to do any research on (or make it public) so some trial and >>> error will happen. We all know there are some risk to using this >>> plant for Addiction. Stuff will happen. I just think it would >>> serve us all better to know what went wrong. Just to say that >>> he had to go to the hospital is so little. It could of been that >>> he went straight from Methadone\sub to iboga. It could be that >>> he was not prepared for the lethargy that happens to those who >>> choose this route. OR is could be that he didn't receive the amt >>> of medicine that was needed. So much unsaid. I am not asking for >>> the persons name or address.. just more information. It that >>> asking for too much. Not like we can take that info and figure >>> out who had the treatment. >>> >>> I think its so sad that we cant come here or somewhere and share >>> with everyone when things do go south without the fear of being >>> labeled as a poor provider. So much disinformation comes to this >>> board. So much we all need to learn about this plant. >>> >>> I once had a person that I treated who was treated by another >>> provider first. This fellow was told that ''if it didn't work, >>> he could get another tx free of charge". Well hearing this the >>> addict stayed clean for three days.. as soon as he returned home >>> he began shooting dope again. I was called in to help. I ask >>> this guy why the treatment didn't work... he knew that it did but >>> was just not ready. This fellow had a seizure during his >>> treatment with me. I was lucky enough to have had a IV valium >>> ready and he did not need to be taken to the ER. Why I am sharing >>> this is I should have been able to come here, share what happen >>> and how I treated him which didn't need ER visit. Many >>> non-medical providers could have learned from this. Thus being a >>> better provider and maybe saving a life. But to tell the truth, I >>> was fearful to share this here. In fear that I would be labeled a >>> poor provider due to the gentleman having a seizure. This >>> gentleman was told and allowed to drink up to his treatment... >>> from what he shared with me his provider drank etoh thru out the >>> treatment also. I am aware of another provider who I have great >>> respect for as a provider. This person was under the impression >>> that three days from etoh was enough time to give a safe >>> treatment.. so not true. If I felt comfortable sharing my story >>> maybe this provider could of learn by my experience and the client >>> would NOT have had the seizure. Get my point? I do know there >>> are poor providers out there. I do know that many are in this >>> for the Money only. So yes... those providers need to stopped or >>> at the least warn others about them. >>> >>> So... my post did not say what I was trying to get across. Its >>> not that I don't think that poor providers need to be called >>> out... just the opposite. But I also know that a lot of trashing >>> goes on here and by phone by a few providers. These folks tell >>> such whoppers it nearly funny. I have had clients call me after >>> talking to WELL KNOWN provider who told such BIG whoppers of lies >>> on other providers just to secure that client. Now we hear that >>> this provider has had a relapse ...... for me this is no excuse >>> for his behavior. So I am a bit skeptical when it comes to >>> trashing a provider. I heard the lies that this certain provider >>> was spreading. Actually said that when the client dies the body >>> parts are sold to the black market. >>> >>> SO... I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say. NOT that I >>> don't want those that have a poor experience, or ripped off, or >>> treated by someone who cares less about ones safety. I just would >>> like to see some constructive criticism. Not that one has bad >>> breath or poor body oder, felt horrible, needed to be hospitalize, >>> but actual information that we can all learn from. IF someone is >>> out there ripping off clients.. YES PLS POST IT and share how he >>> ripped you off. Others can learn from this. The poor addict in >>> active addiction will learn what to look for when searching for a >>> provider. Maybe it could save a life. >>> >>> So... to those I pissed off or stepped on... I hope this clarifies. >>> >>> I am about to be a part of a treatment that I will get the >>> opportunity to watch a Heart monitor during the whole process. I >>> expect to learn a hell of a lot by this. I would love to be able >>> to share the info I might learn. To tell the truth... I fear >>> doing this. I fear that those providers that think I might take a >>> client from them will trash me, use the info to get me in trouble. >>> Now that I am able to treat clients in a country that I don't >>> have to fear my own government .... I want so badly to share what >>> I have learned. Cant due to fear of these nasty providers that >>> feel there are three to many providers offering this treatment >>> will post a public lie about me. >>> >>> I am not saying that I am the best provider out there... that I am >>> sure is far from the truth. I am saying that I might be of some >>> use\help to other providers due to my ER work experience. I >>> wish I could of stayed in the USA and offered this treatment to >>> those in need. I wish I could share openly on this forum what I >>> see on the EKG during the clients treatment. I wish I could share >>> how to treat a seizure that may not require hospitalization. I >>> wish I could openly help those providers who cant read a EKG. I >>> wish, I wish I wish. Wishing wont make it happen. >>> >>> SO... that all. I was not trying stop valid information from >>> being posted. I just would like to hear more then what was >>> posted. All I learn from the complaint was that Beau is claiming >>> to be in the medical field when in fact he is not. I want to know >>> what went wrong, what can we all learn from the experience. >>> >>> I dont think that every treatment needs a MD present. I do see a >>> need at times for some. There have been inquires about a tx and >>> when I saw the lab work\ekg I told the client that I was not the >>> best provider for him. It would be to his benefit to pay the 7500 >>> for a MD to be present. I also dont think a RN needs to be present >>> in every treatment. For some... maybe it would be wise. For >>> others.. it probably is safe to DIY. BUt with the lack of info >>> avail I do hear of many diy that could of been better if they did >>> have a experience provider avail. I have seen providers come >>> here in a panic wanting info while the treatment is in progress... >>> now that is sad, depending on the NET to come to ones rescue when >>> things go south..or if things go south. I know for myself and my >>> treatment if I had more info that my first tx may have been more >>> successful. I wish we just could trust and work together.... >>> that is all I wanted to get across but wrote my post in hast and >>> my true thoughts were not expanded upon. >>> >>> So for the person who had a bad experience... I am truly sorry. >>> >>> >>> On Jan 14, 2012, at 9:03 AM, masterhermesbathory at gmail.com >>> <mailto:masterhermesbathory at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> > True that! >>> > Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. >>> > Envoy? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r?seau >>> de Bell. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl <mailto:sara119 at xs4all.nl>> >>> > Sender: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >>> <mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com> >>> > Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:25:35 >>> > To: The Ibogaine List<ibogaine at mindvox.com >>> <mailto:ibogaine at mindvox.com>> >>> > Reply-To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com >>> <mailto:ibogaine at mindvox.com>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >>> > Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun >>> > d? Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> > >>> > there is a lot of wrong info. on the internet,which does not give >>> > credits to the spirit of the Iboga plant. >>> > >>> > YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IBOGA IS NOT MORE DANGEROUS THEN AN >>> ASPIRIN! >>> > >>> > YOU NEED TO READ THE USER MANUAL. >>> > >>> > the are medical Doctors who are giving to people much to small >>> amount of Ibogaine >>> > and after 36 hours are finished and they are still in >>> withdrawals, they would get >>> > some of their money back after being told that the Ibogaine >>> treatment did not work for them. >>> > that a person is a Doctor does not mean he cares more about the >>> addict. >>> > >>> > the warning should be sign up with their name and tel. no. >>> > >>> > "a jungle" is the Catholic church? the school system? the health >>> system? >>> > the political system? the banking system? the law system?the >>> economical system? the ecological system? the solar system? >>> > and the lies of the media and of those who want us to believe >>> they KNOW better. >>> > >>> > life is a transformation of energy which is not in human >>> control. you can learn to have more awareness of your body >>> > and soul and gain some control on your Qi level, health needs. >>> > >>> > discrediting people without knowing the facts first hand is >>> bullshit! >>> > >>> > Sara >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >>> >> published information. If the users in forums like this are >>> unwilling >>> >> to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >>> >> problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements. It >>> seems >>> >> like some people like it to be a jungle. Like on the streets. If >>> >> something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it out. That's >>> >> your screw-up. Fuck you." But how does a junkie check things >>> out if >>> >> not through forums like this. To me the warning is plain and >>> direct. >>> >> It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down. It >>> does >>> >> not guess. It provides information that is known to the >>> complainer. >>> >> Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about what they >>> >> are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read. >>> There is >>> >> no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >>> >> ibogaine providers as in any field. If you want it to get >>> better you >>> >> try to weed the bad people out. If you knew a dealer was >>> selling crap >>> >> product wouldn't you tell your friends? Some of the abuse here >>> sounds >>> >> exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys. Why shit >>> on us. >>> >> Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the good guys. >>> >> What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag? We're >>> still the >>> >> good guys. Leave us alone. And anyway, he was asking to be >>> bashed. >>> >> He's a junkie." There is plenty of information in the >>> warning. The >>> >> fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant. They had >>> >> enough information to know that something is very wrong and >>> they gave >>> >> a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented itself as >>> >> having an association with them via one of their doctors. >>> Obviously >>> >> they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >>> >> facility. It's not their role to investigate further. >>> >> >>> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> > >>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 27 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:19:47 -0600 >> From: star ray <earthshealing at hotmail.com> >> To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: <SNT133-W57478F580AF28F06AB040CB6830 at phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> >> Thank you sister, your goodness shines through your >> email...................................Star> From: >> sistereboga at yahoo.com >>> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:14:36 -0500 >>> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >>> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> >>> You know'.' I might have to back track a bit. I do think that >>> this is the place and a few others that one should share bad >>> experiences of poor providers. >>> I guess what I was trying to say (though poorly) is that to come on >>> here and trash someone without the information of what went wrong >>> just bothers me. >>> >>> I do not know the person Beau. I did not see what went wrong. All >>> I could read was that something went wrong and Beau is claiming to >>> have medical experience. >>> >>> We are working with a plant that our government will not allow the >>> US to do any research on (or make it public) so some trial and error >>> will happen. We all know there are some risk to using this plant >>> for Addiction. Stuff will happen. I just think it would serve us >>> all better to know what went wrong. Just to say that he had to go >>> to the hospital is so little. It could of been that he went >>> straight from Methadone\sub to iboga. It could be that he was not >>> prepared for the lethargy that happens to those who choose this >>> route. OR is could be that he didn't receive the amt of medicine >>> that was needed. So much unsaid. I am not asking for the persons >>> name or address.. just more information. It that asking for too >>> much. Not like we can take that info and figure out who had the >>> treatment. >>> >>> I think its so sad that we cant come here or somewhere and share >>> with everyone when things do go south without the fear of being >>> labeled as a poor provider. So much disinformation comes to this >>> board. So much we all need to learn about this plant. >>> >>> I once had a person that I treated who was treated by another >>> provider first. This fellow was told that ''if it didn't work, he >>> could get another tx free of charge". Well hearing this the addict >>> stayed clean for three days.. as soon as he returned home he began >>> shooting dope again. I was called in to help. I ask this guy why >>> the treatment didn't work... he knew that it did but was just not >>> ready. This fellow had a seizure during his treatment with me. I >>> was lucky enough to have had a IV valium ready and he did not need >>> to be taken to the ER. Why I am sharing this is I should have been >>> able to come here, share what happen and how I treated him which >>> didn't need ER visit. Many non-medical providers could have >>> learned from this. Thus being a better provider and maybe saving a >>> life. But to tell the truth, I was fearful to share this here. In >>> fear that I would be labeled a poor provider due to the gentleman >>> having a seizure. This gentleman was told and allowe >> d to drink up to his treatment... from what he shared with me his >> provider drank etoh thru out the treatment also. I am aware of >> another provider who I have great respect for as a provider. This >> person was under the impression that three days from etoh was enough >> time to give a safe treatment.. so not true. If I felt comfortable >> sharing my story maybe this provider could of learn by my experience >> and the client would NOT have had the seizure. Get my point? I do >> know there are poor providers out there. I do know that many are in >> this for the Money only. So yes... those providers need to stopped >> or at the least warn others about them. >>> >>> So... my post did not say what I was trying to get across. Its not >>> that I don't think that poor providers need to be called out... just >>> the opposite. But I also know that a lot of trashing goes on here >>> and by phone by a few providers. These folks tell such whoppers it >>> nearly funny. I have had clients call me after talking to WELL >>> KNOWN provider who told such BIG whoppers of lies on other providers >>> just to secure that client. Now we hear that this provider has had >>> a relapse ...... for me this is no excuse for his behavior. So I am >>> a bit skeptical when it comes to trashing a provider. I heard the >>> lies that this certain provider was spreading. Actually said that >>> when the client dies the body parts are sold to the black market. >>> >>> SO... I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say. NOT that I >>> don't want those that have a poor experience, or ripped off, or >>> treated by someone who cares less about ones safety. I just would >>> like to see some constructive criticism. Not that one has bad >>> breath or poor body oder, felt horrible, needed to be hospitalize, >>> but actual information that we can all learn from. IF someone is >>> out there ripping off clients.. YES PLS POST IT and share how he >>> ripped you off. Others can learn from this. The poor addict in >>> active addiction will learn what to look for when searching for a >>> provider. Maybe it could save a life. >>> >>> So... to those I pissed off or stepped on... I hope this clarifies. >>> >>> I am about to be a part of a treatment that I will get the >>> opportunity to watch a Heart monitor during the whole process. I >>> expect to learn a hell of a lot by this. I would love to be able to >>> share the info I might learn. To tell the truth... I fear doing >>> this. I fear that those providers that think I might take a client >>> from them will trash me, use the info to get me in trouble. Now >>> that I am able to treat clients in a country that I don't have to >>> fear my own government .... I want so badly to share what I have >>> learned. Cant due to fear of these nasty providers that feel there >>> are three to many providers offering this treatment will post a >>> public lie about me. >>> >>> I am not saying that I am the best provider out there... that I am >>> sure is far from the truth. I am saying that I might be of some >>> use\help to other providers due to my ER work experience. I wish >>> I could of stayed in the USA and offered this treatment to those in >>> need. I wish I could share openly on this forum what I see on the >>> EKG during the clients treatment. I wish I could share how to treat >>> a seizure that may not require hospitalization. I wish I could >>> openly help those providers who cant read a EKG. I wish, I wish I >>> wish. Wishing wont make it happen. >>> >>> SO... that all. I was not trying stop valid information from being >>> posted. I just would like to hear more then what was posted. All >>> I learn from the complaint was that Beau is claiming to be in the >>> medical field when in fact he is not. I want to know what went >>> wrong, what can we all learn from the experience. >>> >>> I dont think that every treatment needs a MD present. I do see a >>> need at times for some. There have been inquires about a tx and >>> when I saw the lab work\ekg I told the client that I was not the >>> best provider for him. It would be to his benefit to pay the 7500 >>> for a MD to be present. I also dont think a RN needs to be present >>> in every treatment. For some... maybe it would be wise. For >>> others.. it probably is safe to DIY. BUt with the lack of info >>> avail I do hear of many diy that could of been better if they did >>> have a experience provider avail. I have seen providers come here >>> in a panic wanting info while the treatment is in progress... now >>> that is sad, depending on the NET to come to ones rescue when things >>> go south..or if things go south. I know for myself and my treatment >>> if I had more info that my first tx may have been more successful. >>> I wish we just could trust and work together.... that is all I >>> wanted to get across but wrote my post in hast and my true th >> oughts were not expanded upon. >>> >>> So for the person who had a bad experience... I am truly sorry. >>> >>> >>> On Jan 14, 2012, at 9:03 AM, masterhermesbathory at gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> > True that! >>> > Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. >>> > Envoy? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r?seau >>> de > Bell. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >>> > Sender: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >>> > Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:25:35 >>> > To: The Ibogaine List<ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> > Reply-To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >>> > Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun >>> > d? Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> > >>> > there is a lot of wrong info. on the internet,which does not give >>> > credits to the spirit of the Iboga plant. >>> > >>> > YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IBOGA IS NOT MORE DANGEROUS THEN AN >>> ASPIRIN! >>> > >>> > YOU NEED TO READ THE USER MANUAL. >>> > >>> > the are medical Doctors who are giving to people much to small >>> amount > of Ibogaine >>> > and after 36 hours are finished and they are still in withdrawals, >>> they > would get >>> > some of their money back after being told that the Ibogaine >>> treatment > did not work for them. >>> > that a person is a Doctor does not mean he cares more about the >>> addict. >>> > >>> > the warning should be sign up with their name and tel. no. >>> > >>> > "a jungle" is the Catholic church? the school system? the health > >>> system? >>> > the political system? the banking system? the law system?the >>> economical > system? the ecological system? the solar system? >>> > and the lies of the media and of those who want us to believe >>> they > KNOW better. >>> > >>> > life is a transformation of energy which is not in human control. >>> you > can learn to have more awareness of your body >>> > and soul and gain some control on your Qi level, health needs. >>> > >>> > discrediting people without knowing the facts first hand is bullshit! >>> > >>> > Sara >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >>> >> published information. If the users in forums like this are >>> unwilling >>> >> to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >>> >> problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements. It >>> seems >>> >> like some people like it to be a jungle. Like on the streets. If >>> >> something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it out. That's >>> >> your screw-up. Fuck you." But how does a junkie check things >>> out if >>> >> not through forums like this. To me the warning is plain and >>> direct. >>> >> It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down. It does >>> >> not guess. It provides information that is known to the complainer. >>> >> Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about what they >>> >> are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read. There is >>> >> no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >>> >> ibogaine providers as in any field. If you want it to get better >>> you >>> >> try to weed the bad people out. If you knew a dealer was selling >>> crap >>> >> product wouldn't you tell your friends? Some of the abuse here >>> sounds >>> >> exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys. Why shit >>> on us. >>> >> Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the good guys. >>> >> What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag? We're still the >>> >> good guys. Leave us alone. And anyway, he was asking to be bashed. >>> >> He's a junkie." There is plenty of information in the >>> warning. The >>> >> fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant. They had >>> >> enough information to know that something is very wrong and they >>> gave >>> >> a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented itself as >>> >> having an association with them via one of their doctors. Obviously >>> >> they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >>> >> facility. It's not their role to investigate further. >>> >> >>> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> > >>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120115/7969c9fb/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 28 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 20:21:53 -0700 >> From: Edward W <edwardw at mtciep.com> >> To: Ibogaine List Posting <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: [Ibogaine] Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens >> Message-ID: <4F1397D1.3090401 at mtciep.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Anyone see tonights episode of Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens, on the National >> Geographic channel? Dimitri Mobengo Mugianis was on the show. Pretty >> good show, although not without it's overly dramatic narration. I think >> Dimitri had a heartfelt showing. Also enjoyed the Ayahuasca portion as >> well. >> >> -- >> ___________________ >> Edward >> edwardw at mtciep.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 29 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:37:35 -0600 >> From: star ray <earthshealing at hotmail.com> >> To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: <SNT133-W48613119266C165ACF872EB6830 at phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> >> They were just talking about ibogaine on the Naitonal Geographic >> Channel tonight, my friend sent me a text but I got the tail end of >> the show, I am sure if you have On Demand you can get it ... it is a >> series they are running called "Drugs, Inc.: Hallucinogens" They were >> also talking about Ayahuasca >> http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0603/features/peru.html >> (found this on line) Star >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 10:07:43 -0800 >> From: sistereboga at yahoo.com >> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> >> I just dont ever see that happening... for many reasons. Some take a >> strick spirital approach, some mix spiritual with medical, some are >> using themselves or have those around "helping" while under the >> influence. After all... most that work with this plant are in >> recovery themselves... I am for one. Some claim to be but not. I >> could not work side by side with someone using.. esp opiates. For my >> own safety and my clients safety. >> Some clients want nothing to do with the Bwitte religion. Some >> pretent to be or are want=a=be's bwitte. I am not of that culture >> nor am I willing to pretend to be. So many different personalities, >> so many ways to approach this tool. Dont get me wrong. I am glad of >> the different personalities.. it gives a choice to the client. So >> there will always be differences in treatment. >> I think the most important thing is to keep this plant available to >> the public. Make noise about it when able. Go to the drug forums >> and share what you know about it. When someone contacts me and want >> a Bwitti style tx I wish I knew of someone who was avail. We are all >> part of a vast universe. What works for me wont nessa work for >> another. When I had my treatment I wanted NO part of the dressing >> like the dead, dont understand it and not my culture. I have since >> learn a bit about the Bwitti tribe and its beliefs but that dosnt >> make me one of them. >> For me... it helps me stay clean working with this plant. Nothing >> better then to remind me where I was and that I never want to go back >> there. >> >> Well... thats really all I have to say about the matter. So I hope i >> did get my point across. I hope that even though we may not work in >> the same matter the goal is all the same, I hope we can put aside our >> difference and help each other, Chris is so right in that there are >> way too many addicts to pull from. We dont need to fight over a >> client or tear down another just for that pocket change. Now for me >> 7500 is a bit more then pocket change.. but for a MD.. its not. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: "cbava108 at gmail.com" <cbava108 at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:07 PM >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> >> >> If the providers within a certain geographic area would join forces >> and unify rather than use smear tactics to land clients they'd soon >> realize what most people who understand business and marketing have >> learned long ago. Similar businesses practicing in the same area >> attract more interest and customers (and there are more than enough >> clients to go around!) and thrashing others to secure a client here >> and there is eventually counter-productive, sooner or later you'll >> end up looking just like the asshole that you are, and will result in >> losing customers ... what I predict and hope will end up happening >> with Mr. Mason and his ilk. That said, if it were me, I'd share and >> publish whatever I could and welcome those who fashion lies and use >> smear tactics to have their day ... the truth will soon become >> obvious. I think withholding knowledge is capitulating to the creeps, >> they want to keep your light from shining. Fuck >> that! >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:14 AM, sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> You know'.' I might have to back track a bit. I do think that >> this is the place and a few others that one should share bad >> experiences of poor providers. >> I guess what I was trying to say (though poorly) is that to come on >> here and trash someone without the information of what went wrong >> just bothers me. >> >> I do not know the person Beau. I did not see what went wrong. All I >> could read was that something went wrong and Beau is claiming to have >> medical experience. >> >> We are working with a plant that our government will not allow the US >> to do any research on (or make it public) so some trial and error >> will happen. We all know there are some risk to using this plant for >> Addiction. Stuff will happen. I just think it would serve us all >> better to know what went wrong. >> Just to say that he had to go to the hospital is so little. It >> could of been that he went straight from Methadone\sub to iboga. It >> could be that he was not prepared for the lethargy that happens to >> those who choose this route. OR is could be that he didn't receive >> the amt of medicine that was needed. So much unsaid. I am not >> asking for the persons name or address.. just more information. It >> that asking for too much. Not like we can take that info and figure >> out who had the treatment. >> >> I think its so sad that we cant come here or somewhere and share with >> everyone when things do go south without the fear of being labeled as >> a poor provider. So much disinformation comes to this board. So >> much we all need to learn about this plant. >> >> I once had a person that I treated who was treated by another >> provider first. This fellow was told that ''if it didn't work, he >> could >> get another tx free of charge". Well hearing this the addict stayed >> clean for three days.. as soon as he returned home he began shooting >> dope again. I was called in to help. I ask this guy why the >> treatment didn't work... he knew that it did but was just not ready. >> This fellow had a seizure during his treatment with me. I was lucky >> enough to have had a IV valium ready and he did not need to be taken >> to the ER. Why I am sharing this is I should have been able to come >> here, share what happen and how I treated him which didn't need ER >> visit. Many non-medical providers could have learned from this. >> Thus being a better provider and maybe saving a life. But to tell >> the truth, I was fearful to share this here. In fear that I would be >> labeled a poor provider due to the gentleman having a seizure. This >> gentleman was told and allowed to drink up to his treatment... from >> what he shared with me his provider drank etoh thru out the treatment >> also. I am aware of another provider who I have great respect for as >> a provider. This person was under the impression that three days >> from etoh was enough time to give a safe treatment.. so not true. If >> I felt comfortable sharing my story maybe this provider could of >> learn by my experience and the client would NOT have had the >> seizure. Get my point? I do know there are poor providers out >> there. I do know that many are in this for the Money only. So >> yes... those providers need to stopped or at the least warn others >> about them. >> >> So... my post did not say what I was trying to get across. Its not >> that I don't think that poor providers need to be called out... just >> the opposite. But I also know that a lot of trashing goes on here >> and by phone by a few providers. These folks tell such whoppers it >> nearly funny. I have >> had clients call me after talking to WELL KNOWN provider who told >> such BIG whoppers of lies on other providers just to secure that >> client. Now we hear that this provider has had a relapse ...... for >> me this is no excuse for his behavior. So I am a bit skeptical when >> it comes to trashing a provider. I heard the lies that this certain >> provider was spreading. Actually said that when the client dies the >> body parts are sold to the black market. >> >> SO... I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say. NOT that I >> don't want those that have a poor experience, or ripped off, or >> treated by someone who cares less about ones safety. I just would >> like to see some constructive criticism. Not that one has bad breath >> or poor body oder, felt horrible, needed to be hospitalize, but >> actual information that we can all learn from. IF someone is out >> there ripping off clients.. YES PLS POST IT and share how he ripped you >> off. Others can learn from this. The poor addict in active >> addiction will learn what to look for when searching for a provider. >> Maybe it could save a life. >> >> So... to those I pissed off or stepped on... I hope this clarifies. >> >> I am about to be a part of a treatment that I will get the >> opportunity to watch a Heart monitor during the whole process. I >> expect to learn a hell of a lot by this. I would love to be able to >> share the info I might learn. To tell the truth... I fear doing >> this. I fear that those providers that think I might take a client >> from them will trash me, use the info to get me in trouble. Now >> that I am able to treat clients in a country that I don't have to >> fear my own government .... I want so badly to share what I have >> learned. Cant due to fear of these nasty providers that feel there >> are three to many providers offering this treatment will post a >> public lie about >> me. >> >> I am not saying that I am the best provider out there... that I am >> sure is far from the truth. I am saying that I might be of some >> use\help to other providers due to my ER work experience. I wish I >> could of stayed in the USA and offered this treatment to those in >> need. I wish I could share openly on this forum what I see on the >> EKG during the clients treatment. I wish I could share how to treat a >> seizure that may not require hospitalization. I wish I could openly >> help those providers who cant read a EKG. I wish, I wish I wish. >> Wishing wont make it happen. >> >> SO... that all. I was not trying stop valid information from being >> posted. I just would like to hear more then what was posted. All I >> learn from the complaint was that Beau is claiming to be in the >> medical field when in fact he is not. I want to know what went >> wrong, what can we all learn from the >> experience. >> >> I dont think that every treatment needs a MD present. I do see a >> need at times for some. There have been inquires about a tx and when >> I saw the lab work\ekg I told the client that I was not the best >> provider for him. It would be to his benefit to pay the 7500 for a MD >> to be present. I also dont think a RN needs to be present in every >> treatment. For some... maybe it would be wise. For others.. it >> probably is safe to DIY. BUt with the lack of info avail I do hear >> of many diy that could of been better if they did have a experience >> provider avail. I have seen providers come here in a panic wanting >> info while the treatment is in progress... now that is sad, depending >> on the NET to come to ones rescue when things go south..or if things >> go south. I know for myself and my treatment if I had more info that >> my first tx may have been more successful. I wish we just could >> trust and work >> together.... that is all I wanted to get across but wrote my post in >> hast and my true thoughts were not expanded upon. >> >> So for the person who had a bad experience... I am truly sorry. >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 14, 2012, at 9:03 AM, masterhermesbathory at gmail.com wrote: >> >>> True that! >>> Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. >>> Envoy? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r?seau de >>> Bell. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> >>> Sender: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:25:35 >>> To: The Ibogaine List<ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> Reply-To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >>> Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun >>> d? Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> >>> there is a lot of wrong info. on the internet,which does not give >>> credits to the spirit of the Iboga plant. >>> >>> YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IBOGA IS NOT MORE DANGEROUS THEN AN ASPIRIN! >>> >>> YOU NEED TO READ THE USER MANUAL. >>> >>> the are medical Doctors who are giving to people much to small >>> amount of Ibogaine >>> and after 36 hours are finished and they are still in withdrawals, >>> they would get >>> some of their money back after being told that the Ibogaine >>> treatment did not work for them. >>> that a person is a Doctor does >> not mean he cares more about the addict. >>> >>> the warning should be sign up with their name and tel. no. >>> >>> "a jungle" is the Catholic church? the school system? the health >>> system? >>> the political system? the banking system? the law system?the >>> economical system? the ecological system? the solar system? >>> and the lies of the media and of those who want us to believe they >>> KNOW better. >>> >>> life is a transformation of energy which is not in human control. >>> you can learn to have more awareness of your body >>> and soul and gain some control on your Qi level, health needs. >>> >>> discrediting people without knowing the facts first hand is bullshit! >>> >>> Sara >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >>>> published information. If the users in forums like >> this are unwilling >>>> to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >>>> problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements. It seems >>>> like some people like it to be a jungle. Like on the streets. If >>>> something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it out. That's >>>> your screw-up. Fuck you." But how does a junkie check things out if >>>> not through forums like this. To me the warning is plain and direct. >>>> It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down. It does >>>> not guess. It provides information that is known to the complainer. >>>> Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about what they >>>> are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read. There is >>>> no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >>>> ibogaine >> providers as in any field. If you want it to get better you >>>> try to weed the bad people out. If you knew a dealer was selling crap >>>> product wouldn't you tell your friends? Some of the abuse here sounds >>>> exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys. Why shit on us. >>>> Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the good guys. >>>> What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag? We're still the >>>> good guys. Leave us alone. And anyway, he was asking to be bashed. >>>> He's a junkie." There is plenty of information in the warning. The >>>> fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant. They had >>>> enough information to know that something is very wrong and they gave >>>> a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented itself as >>>> having an association >> with them via one of their doctors. Obviously >>>> they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >>>> facility. It's not their role to investigate further. >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands >> ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> >> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> >> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120115/0840a0ee/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 30 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 20:39:01 -0700 >> From: Edward W <edwardw at mtciep.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >> Message-ID: <4F139BD5.5000907 at mtciep.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed >> >> Did see that Star, pretty good show. Dimitri did have a good showing on >> the show....heartfelt. >> >> ___________________ >> Edward >> edwardw at mtciep.com >> >> >> >> >> >> On 1/15/2012 8:37 PM, star ray wrote: >>> They were just talking about ibogaine on the Naitonal Geographic >>> Channel tonight, my friend sent me a text but I got the tail end of >>> the show, I am sure if you have On Demand you can get it ... it is a >>> series they are running called "Drugs, Inc.: Hallucinogens" They were >>> also talking about *Ayahuasca* >>> http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0603/features/peru.html >>> (found this on line) >>> >>> Star >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 10:07:43 -0800 >>> From: sistereboga at yahoo.com >>> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >>> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> >>> I just dont ever see that happening... for many reasons. Some take a >>> strick spirital approach, some mix spiritual with medical, some are >>> using themselves or have those around "helping" while under the >>> influence. After all... most that work with this plant are in >>> recovery themselves... I am for one. Some claim to be but not. I >>> could not work side by side with someone using.. esp opiates. For my >>> own safety and my clients safety. >>> Some clients want nothing to do with the Bwitte religion. Some >>> pretent to be or are want=a=be's bwitte. I am not of that culture nor >>> am I willing to pretend to be. So many different personalities, so >>> many ways to approach this tool. Dont get me wrong. I am glad of the >>> different personalities.. it gives a choice to the client. So there >>> will always be differences in treatment. >>> I think the most important thing is to keep this plant available to >>> the public. Make noise about it when able. Go to the drug forums and >>> share what you know about it. When someone contacts me and want a >>> Bwitti style tx I wish I knew of someone who was avail. We are all >>> part of a vast universe. What works for me wont nessa work for >>> another. When I had my treatment I wanted NO part of the dressing >>> like the dead, dont understand it and not my culture. I have since >>> learn a bit about the Bwitti tribe and its beliefs but that dosnt make >>> me one of them. >>> For me... it helps me stay clean working with this plant. Nothing >>> better then to remind me where I was and that I never want to go back >>> there. >>> Well... thats really all I have to say about the matter. So I hope i >>> did get my point across. I hope that even though we may not work in >>> the same matter the goal is all the same, I hope we can put aside our >>> difference and help each other, Chris is so right in that there are >>> way too many addicts to pull from. We dont need to fight over a >>> client or tear down another just for that pocket change. Now for me >>> 7500 is a bit more then pocket change.. but for a MD.. its not. >>> >>> *From:* "cbava108 at gmail.com" <cbava108 at gmail.com> >>> *To:* The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:07 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun d? >>> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> >>> If the providers within a certain geographic area would join >>> forces and unify rather than use smear tactics to land clients >>> they'd soon realize what most people who understand business and >>> marketing have learned long ago. Similar businesses practicing in >>> the same area attract more interest and customers (and there are >>> more than enough clients to go around!) and thrashing others to >>> secure a client here and there is eventually counter-productive, >>> sooner or later you'll end up looking just like the asshole that >>> you are, and will result in losing customers ... what I predict >>> and hope will end up happening with Mr. Mason and his ilk. That >>> said, if it were me, I'd share and publish whatever I could and >>> welcome those who fashion lies and use smear tactics to have their >>> day ... the truth will soon become obvious. I think withholding >>> knowledge is capitulating to the creeps, they want to keep your >>> light from shining. Fuck that! >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:14 AM, sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com >>> <mailto:sistereboga at yahoo.com>> wrote: >>> >>> You know'.' I might have to back track a bit. I do think >>> that this is the place and a few others that one should share >>> bad experiences of poor providers. >>> I guess what I was trying to say (though poorly) is that to >>> come on here and trash someone without the information of what >>> went wrong just bothers me. >>> >>> I do not know the person Beau. I did not see what went wrong. >>> All I could read was that something went wrong and Beau is >>> claiming to have medical experience. >>> >>> We are working with a plant that our government will not allow >>> the US to do any research on (or make it public) so some trial >>> and error will happen. We all know there are some risk to >>> using this plant for Addiction. Stuff will happen. I just >>> think it would serve us all better to know what went wrong. >>> Just to say that he had to go to the hospital is so little. >>> It could of been that he went straight from Methadone\sub to >>> iboga. It could be that he was not prepared for the lethargy >>> that happens to those who choose this route. OR is could be >>> that he didn't receive the amt of medicine that was needed. >>> So much unsaid. I am not asking for the persons name or >>> address.. just more information. It that asking for too much. >>> Not like we can take that info and figure out who had the >>> treatment. >>> >>> I think its so sad that we cant come here or somewhere and >>> share with everyone when things do go south without the fear >>> of being labeled as a poor provider. So much disinformation >>> comes to this board. So much we all need to learn about this >>> plant. >>> >>> I once had a person that I treated who was treated by another >>> provider first. This fellow was told that ''if it didn't >>> work, he could get another tx free of charge". Well hearing >>> this the addict stayed clean for three days.. as soon as he >>> returned home he began shooting dope again. I was called in >>> to help. I ask this guy why the treatment didn't work... he >>> knew that it did but was just not ready. This fellow had a >>> seizure during his treatment with me. I was lucky enough to >>> have had a IV valium ready and he did not need to be taken to >>> the ER. Why I am sharing this is I should have been able to >>> come here, share what happen and how I treated him which >>> didn't need ER visit. Many non-medical providers could have >>> learned from this. Thus being a better provider and maybe >>> saving a life. But to tell the truth, I was fearful to share >>> this here. In fear that I would be labeled a poor provider >>> due to the gentleman having a seizure. This gentleman was >>> told and allowed to drink up to his treatment... from what he >>> shared with me his provider drank etoh thru out the treatment >>> also. I am aware of another provider who I have great respect >>> for as a provider. This person was under the impression that >>> three days from etoh was enough time to give a safe >>> treatment.. so not true. If I felt comfortable sharing my >>> story maybe this provider could of learn by my experience and >>> the client would NOT have had the seizure. Get my point? I >>> do know there are poor providers out there. I do know that >>> many are in this for the Money only. So yes... those >>> providers need to stopped or at the least warn others about >>> them. >>> >>> So... my post did not say what I was trying to get across. >>> Its not that I don't think that poor providers need to be >>> called out... just the opposite. But I also know that a lot >>> of trashing goes on here and by phone by a few providers. >>> These folks tell such whoppers it nearly funny. I have had >>> clients call me after talking to WELL KNOWN provider who told >>> such BIG whoppers of lies on other providers just to secure >>> that client. Now we hear that this provider has had a relapse >>> ...... for me this is no excuse for his behavior. So I am a >>> bit skeptical when it comes to trashing a provider. I heard >>> the lies that this certain provider was spreading. Actually >>> said that when the client dies the body parts are sold to the >>> black market. >>> >>> SO... I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say. NOT >>> that I don't want those that have a poor experience, or ripped >>> off, or treated by someone who cares less about ones safety. >>> I just would like to see some constructive criticism. Not >>> that one has bad breath or poor body oder, felt horrible, >>> needed to be hospitalize, but actual information that we can >>> all learn from. IF someone is out there ripping off clients.. >>> YES PLS POST IT and share how he ripped you off. Others can >>> learn from this. The poor addict in active addiction will >>> learn what to look for when searching for a provider. Maybe >>> it could save a life. >>> >>> So... to those I pissed off or stepped on... I hope this >>> clarifies. >>> >>> I am about to be a part of a treatment that I will get the >>> opportunity to watch a Heart monitor during the whole process. >>> I expect to learn a hell of a lot by this. I would love to >>> be able to share the info I might learn. To tell the truth... >>> I fear doing this. I fear that those providers that think I >>> might take a client from them will trash me, use the info to >>> get me in trouble. Now that I am able to treat clients in a >>> country that I don't have to fear my own government .... I >>> want so badly to share what I have learned. Cant due to fear >>> of these nasty providers that feel there are three to many >>> providers offering this treatment will post a public lie >>> about me. >>> >>> I am not saying that I am the best provider out there... that >>> I am sure is far from the truth. I am saying that I might be >>> of some use\help to other providers due to my ER work >>> experience. I wish I could of stayed in the USA and offered >>> this treatment to those in need. I wish I could share openly >>> on this forum what I see on the EKG during the clients >>> treatment. I wish I could share how to treat a seizure that >>> may not require hospitalization. I wish I could openly help >>> those providers who cant read a EKG. I wish, I wish I wish. >>> Wishing wont make it happen. >>> >>> SO... that all. I was not trying stop valid information from >>> being posted. I just would like to hear more then what was >>> posted. All I learn from the complaint was that Beau is >>> claiming to be in the medical field when in fact he is not. I >>> want to know what went wrong, what can we all learn from the >>> experience. >>> >>> I dont think that every treatment needs a MD present. I do >>> see a need at times for some. There have been inquires about >>> a tx and when I saw the lab work\ekg I told the client that I >>> was not the best provider for him. It would be to his benefit >>> to pay the 7500 for a MD to be present. I also dont think a RN >>> needs to be present in every treatment. For some... maybe it >>> would be wise. For others.. it probably is safe to DIY. BUt >>> with the lack of info avail I do hear of many diy that could >>> of been better if they did have a experience provider avail. >>> I have seen providers come here in a panic wanting info while >>> the treatment is in progress... now that is sad, depending on >>> the NET to come to ones rescue when things go south..or if >>> things go south. I know for myself and my treatment if I had >>> more info that my first tx may have been more successful. I >>> wish we just could trust and work together.... that is all I >>> wanted to get across but wrote my post in hast and my true >>> thoughts were not expanded upon. >>> >>> So for the person who had a bad experience... I am truly sorry. >>> >>> >>> On Jan 14, 2012, at 9:03 AM, masterhermesbathory at gmail.com >>> <mailto:masterhermesbathory at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> > True that! >>> > Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network. >>> > Envoy? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le >>> r?seau de Bell. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl >>> <mailto:sara119 at xs4all.nl>> >>> > Sender: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com >>> <mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com> >>> > Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:25:35 >>> > To: The Ibogaine List<ibogaine at mindvox.com >>> <mailto:ibogaine at mindvox.com>> >>> > Reply-To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com >>> <mailto:ibogaine at mindvox.com>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] >>> > Transitions | Unethical ?Undergroun >>> > d? Ibogaine Detox Treatment Centers >>> > >>> > there is a lot of wrong info. on the internet,which does not >>> give >>> > credits to the spirit of the Iboga plant. >>> > >>> > YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IBOGA IS NOT MORE DANGEROUS THEN >>> AN ASPIRIN! >>> > >>> > YOU NEED TO READ THE USER MANUAL. >>> > >>> > the are medical Doctors who are giving to people much to >>> small amount of Ibogaine >>> > and after 36 hours are finished and they are still in >>> withdrawals, they would get >>> > some of their money back after being told that the Ibogaine >>> treatment did not work for them. >>> > that a person is a Doctor does not mean he cares more about >>> the addict. >>> > >>> > the warning should be sign up with their name and tel. no. >>> > >>> > "a jungle" is the Catholic church? the school system? the >>> health system? >>> > the political system? the banking system? the law system?the >>> economical system? the ecological system? the solar system? >>> > and the lies of the media and of those who want us to >>> believe they KNOW better. >>> > >>> > life is a transformation of energy which is not in human >>> control. you can learn to have more awareness of your body >>> > and soul and gain some control on your Qi level, health needs. >>> > >>> > discrediting people without knowing the facts first hand is >>> bullshit! >>> > >>> > Sara >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > People in other parts of the world have to make choices based on >>> >> published information. If the users in forums like this >>> are unwilling >>> >> to criticise anybody, or consider gross misrepresentation not a >>> >> problem, how will anybody be able to make valid judgements. >>> It seems >>> >> like some people like it to be a jungle. Like on the >>> streets. If >>> >> something went wrong - "Hey, you should have checked it >>> out. That's >>> >> your screw-up. Fuck you." But how does a junkie check >>> things out if >>> >> not through forums like this. To me the warning is plain >>> and direct. >>> >> It describes exactly how the person concerned was let down. >>> It does >>> >> not guess. It provides information that is known to the >>> complainer. >>> >> Transitions may well help some people, but they lie about >>> what they >>> >> are and are uncaring. That warning is what I want to read. >>> There is >>> >> no question that there are dangerously inept people working as >>> >> ibogaine providers as in any field. If you want it to get >>> better you >>> >> try to weed the bad people out. If you knew a dealer was >>> selling crap >>> >> product wouldn't you tell your friends? Some of the abuse >>> here sounds >>> >> exactly like bent cops bleating "We're the good guys. Why >>> shit on us. >>> >> Sure some of us bend the law a bit, but we're still the >>> good guys. >>> >> What does it matter if we bash some junkie scumbag? We're >>> still the >>> >> good guys. Leave us alone. And anyway, he was asking to >>> be bashed. >>> >> He's a junkie." There is plenty of information in the >>> warning. The >>> >> fact that every detail is not spelled out is irrelevant. >>> They had >>> >> enough information to know that something is very wrong and >>> they gave >>> >> a warning on that basis. Also, Transitions misrepresented >>> itself as >>> >> having an association with them via one of their doctors. >>> Obviously >>> >> they need to protect the reputation of the doctor and of their >>> >> facility. It's not their role to investigate further. >>> >> >>> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: >>> [%][) >>> >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> > >>> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> > (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: >>> [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- (][%] :: >>> http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) -=[) :::: Change >>> Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 31 >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:04:30 +1100 >> From: David Ray <trees.and.rain at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d?? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters >> Message-ID: >> <CAD_M9k0c3AjXx9drQsNd_YN9MHRhC3Zd8KZkmVow+LnErPYUDA at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Major social systems are corrupt. Some of them try to get better. >> They are the valuable ones. It seems to make sense to at least try to >> combat corruption. Ibogaine is an immensely complex neuroactive >> molecule that is demonstrably dangerous. Your spiritual beliefs have >> no relevance to me. I came here to learn about a neuroactive >> substance. I tried various other hallucinogens starting about 40 >> years ago. They provide some insight into neural mechanisms, the way >> the brain assembles consciousness. I don't have the slightest >> interest in using them now. My only interest is in using a >> neuroactive substance to help eliminate one more drug, methadone, from >> my body. I've continued to use methadone because it is one of the >> least intrusive drugs I've encountered (In combination with other >> drugs it's a bastard - on its own it is reasonably harmless). Much >> less harmful than alcohol or benzodiazepines. But I'd like to get rid >> of methadone as well, because greater clarity of mind may help my >> writing and music(this is purely my situation and therefore irrelevant >> also, but I thought I'd add a bit of background). Then maybe when the >> ibogaine itself is also eliminated from my body after 6 months or so >> I'll look into vipassana meditation again, or other spiritually >> related practices that I've explored in the past and let go or some >> that come to me later. However, not only are your spiritual beliefs >> irrelevant, my spiritual beliefs are also irrelevant, except to me. >> This emphasis on individual spirituallity denies benefit to 99% of the >> people who may benefit from the drug, but don't share your belief >> system. Just like catholicism, judaiism, scientology, etc. As a >> spiritual sacrament it may benefit some people. As a medical >> treatment it may benefit 100 times as many or more. The checks and >> balances of the medical system often screw up, but they substantially >> succeed much of the time. There is, in particular, the notion of >> INFORMED consent. Largely lacking from conventional medicine, but >> entirely lacking from most current ibogaine treatments. I've got no >> objection to current providers who are diligent and continue to learn, >> but a massive increase in the benefit to come from ibogaine will not >> come from within this system. Only medicalisation, more people like >> Deborah Mash, will do that. SO SLOW, but with some pushing, maybe it >> will move faster. Like some of the earliest posts, full of idiocy and >> abuse (Mr. Krupa may be related to the famous jazz drummer, the way he >> bounces around with quite stylish results amidst the chaos), I have >> found this sequence very helpful. Unfortunate perhaps, but idiocy and >> abuse seems to stimulate rationality as well. People trying to >> explain, rather than the brief and pointless that often seems to >> prevail. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 32 >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:32:17 -0500 >> From: cal que <calaquendi420 at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? >> Message-ID: >> <CAJgi7QEUX-Y8uCsfzM=ecuAM2-QXMWvYPHn1GEET-zQvAOuKKw at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> LMAO Mikki >> >> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Mikki Lynne <xxmikkixx at gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> An Opana in my NoDoz... It's like Willy Wonka's golden ticket >>> contest for >>> junkies... Oh and any truck drivers out there? A minor wreck, a NoDoz >>> lawsuit... set for life. >>> >>> >>> On Jan 15, 2012, at 5:00 AM, Vector Vector <vector620022002 at yahoo.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/09/health/drug-mix-up-fda/index.html >>> >>> Consumers warned about possible drug mix-up >>> >>> Novartis issues massive pill recall >>> (CNN) -- Machinery problems at a drug manufacturing plant prompted the >>> U.S. Food and Drug Administration to warn patients of a possible mix-up >>> affecting various prescription pain medications and over-the-counter >>> drugs. >>> >>> The FDA is advising patients who use certain prescription medications >>> produced by Endo Pharmaceuticals to visually inspect their pills. And >>> consumers who have select bottles of Excedrin, Bufferin, NoDoz and >>> Gas-X, >>> produced by Novartis, are being told to discard or return the >>> products in a >>> voluntary recall that started Sunday. >>> >>> The over-the-counter drugs involved in the recall were manufactured >>> at a >>> Lincoln, Nebraska, facility which also produced various prescription >>> pain >>> medicines for Endo Pharmaceuticals, according to the U.S. Food and Drug >>> Administration. These pills include Percocet, Opana and Percodan. >>> >>> "Due to problems that occurred when these products were packaged and >>> labeled at the site, it's possible that tablets from one product may >>> have >>> been retained in the packaging machinery and then may have carried over >>> into the packaging of another product," said Dr. Edward Cox, >>> director of >>> the Office of Antimicrobial Products, Office of New Drugs, Center >>> for Drug >>> Evaluation of Research for the FDA. >>> >>> "This could result in an incorrect pill ending up in the bottle of >>> another >>> product. The likelihood of this occurring in medication dispensed in >>> patients is estimated to be low," he added. >>> >>> The prescription opioids could have ended up in the bottle of another >>> prescription drug or over-the-counter products, although "the risk >>> of pills >>> ending up in the wrong bottle is a rare event," according to the FDA. >>> >>> There have been no reports of adverse events due to this problem, >>> Cox said. >>> >>> Patients who take an affected Endo Pharmaceuticals products should >>> visually inspect all the pills in their bottles, according to the >>> company >>> and FDA. Endo Pharmaceuticals posted pictures of the products on >>> their web >>> page for tablet identifications. >>> >>> The products listed there: Opana ER (oxymorphone hydrochloride) >>> extended-release tablets CII; Opana (oxymorphone hydrochloride) tablets >>> CII; oxymorphone hydrochloride tablets CII; Percocet (oxycodone >>> hydrochloride and acetaminophen USP) tablets CII; Percodan (oxycodone >>> hydrochloride and aspirin, USP) tablets CII; Endocet (oxycodone >>> hydrochloride and acetaminophen USP) tablets CII; Endodan (oxycodone >>> hydrochloride and aspirin, USP) tablets CII; Morphine Sulfate >>> Extended-Release Tablets CII; and Zydone (hydrocodone >>> bitartrate/acetaminophen tablets, USP) CIII. >>> >>> "We are asking patients to check their medicines, to look for any >>> tablets >>> of a different size, shape or color from their regular medicine," >>> Cox said. >>> "If they find any tablets that are different, stop taking the pain >>> medication and take the medicine to the pharmacy. We are telling >>> patients >>> to look carefully at all tablets in pain medication bottle." >>> >>> Patients who have questions should contact Endo Pharmaceuticals or >>> their >>> doctors, he advised. >>> >>> Pharmacists are also being asked to "visually inspect and verify the >>> identity of all tablets dispensed," Cox said. >>> >>> "The likelihood of finding a wrong pill in an opioid pain medication is >>> low," he said. "Patients should not be alarmed. These steps we're >>> recommending are additional steps we are recommending to further >>> reduce an >>> already low likelihood of medication mix-up." >>> >>> The Nebraska plant has been temporarily shut down, which could cause >>> drug >>> shortages and disruptions in the supply chain for Endo Pharmaceuticals. >>> >>> "We anticipate that there may be a short-term disruption in the >>> supply of >>> these products to patients. This temporary supply disruption is not >>> related >>> to the efficacy or safety of these products," according to the company. >>> >>> "We are not aware of any patient having experienced a confirmed product >>> mix-up and there have been no adverse events attributable to a product >>> mix-up. We believe the likelihood of product mix-up reaching a >>> patient is >>> remote," according to the company. >>> >>> The over-the-counter items involved in the Novartis recall include >>> Excedrin and NoDoz products with expiration dates of December 20, >>> 2014, or >>> earlier, as well as Bufferin and Gas-X products with December 20, >>> 2013, or >>> earlier expiration dates. >>> >>> Novartis had suspended operations at, and shipments from, the Lincoln, >>> Nebraska, facility. The company said this was done "to accelerate >>> maintenance" and make other improvements, adding that it currently >>> "is not >>> possible" to determine when the plant will reopen. >>> >>> Consumers who have the affected products can contact Novartis Consumer >>> Relationship Center or try to obtain a refund. >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120115/37e5d88c/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 33 >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:37:57 -0500 >> From: Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens >> Message-ID: >> <CAEoZqz1G6ERnY2uTrcuHotsqzgsvQWGcxA_SQ=H8HvWAdZbvow at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Hi ED, >> >> Is there any chance it would be on thepiratebay or something like that. >> >> Best, >> >> - JIM >> >> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Edward W <edwardw at mtciep.com> wrote: >> >>> Anyone see tonights episode of Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens, on the >>> National >>> Geographic channel? Dimitri Mobengo Mugianis was on the show. >>> Pretty good >>> show, although not without it's overly dramatic narration. I think >>> Dimitri >>> had a heartfelt showing. Also enjoyed the Ayahuasca portion as well. >>> >>> -- >>> ___________________ >>> Edward >>> edwardw at mtciep.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: >>> http://mindvox.com/mailman/**listinfo/ibogaine<http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine>:: >>> [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120116/ca3036ad/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 34 >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:51:43 -0700 >> From: buddy ellis <sivabud at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens >> Message-ID: >> <CAAmeJb94E7y3Tt6T7Cx4q0OQX5Wb4p+_-2S=Pav4E37sgavPag at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> here you go jim >> >> http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/drugs-inc/episode-guide/ >> >> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi ED, >>> >>> Is there any chance it would be on thepiratebay or something like that. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> - JIM >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Edward W <edwardw at mtciep.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone see tonights episode of Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens, on the >>>> National >>>> Geographic channel? Dimitri Mobengo Mugianis was on the show. >>>> Pretty good >>>> show, although not without it's overly dramatic narration. I think >>>> Dimitri >>>> had a heartfelt showing. Also enjoyed the Ayahuasca portion as well. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ___________________ >>>> Edward >>>> edwardw at mtciep.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: >>>> http://mindvox.com/mailman/**listinfo/ibogaine<http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine>:: >>>> [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> *Victory over others brings us satisfaction, but victory over ourselves >> brings us joy." >> * >> >> >> >> *Buddy Ellis* >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120116/349d1315/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 35 >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 08:55:59 -0500 >> From: sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens >> Message-ID: <96414CA4-30B0-478E-97D1-9289D9A56990 at yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> It's on demand now... >> >> Sent by someone who missed way too many English classes. >> >> On Jan 16, 2012, at 8:51 AM, buddy ellis <sivabud at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> here you go jim >>> >>> http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/drugs-inc/episode-guide/ >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> Hi ED, >>> >>> Is there any chance it would be on thepiratebay or something like that. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> - JIM >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Edward W <edwardw at mtciep.com> wrote: >>> Anyone see tonights episode of Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens, on the >>> National Geographic channel? Dimitri Mobengo Mugianis was on the >>> show. Pretty good show, although not without it's overly dramatic >>> narration. I think Dimitri had a heartfelt showing. Also enjoyed the >>> Ayahuasca portion as well. >>> >>> -- >>> ___________________ >>> Edward >>> edwardw at mtciep.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Victory over others brings us satisfaction, but victory over >>> ourselves brings us joy." >>> >>> >>> >>> Buddy Ellis >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120116/c819eb90/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 36 >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:02:14 +0000 >> From: Sid <sidskidpiercing at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens >> Message-ID: <DEA8A559-12C7-48B5-8D78-407AEA14821D at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> And if you download sky fire you can watch it on iOS devices :) >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 16 Jan 2012, at 13:55, sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> It's on demand now... >>> >>> Sent by someone who missed way too many English classes. >>> >>> On Jan 16, 2012, at 8:51 AM, buddy ellis <sivabud at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> here you go jim >>>> >>>> http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/drugs-inc/episode-guide/ >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> Hi ED, >>>> >>>> Is there any chance it would be on thepiratebay or something like >>>> that. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> - JIM >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Edward W <edwardw at mtciep.com> wrote: >>>> Anyone see tonights episode of Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens, on the >>>> National Geographic channel? Dimitri Mobengo Mugianis was on the >>>> show. Pretty good show, although not without it's overly dramatic >>>> narration. I think Dimitri had a heartfelt showing. Also enjoyed >>>> the Ayahuasca portion as well. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ___________________ >>>> Edward >>>> edwardw at mtciep.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Victory over others brings us satisfaction, but victory over >>>> ourselves brings us joy." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Buddy Ellis >>>> >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120116/2e487a90/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 37 >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:39:14 -0800 (PST) >> From: Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d?? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters >> Message-ID: >> <1326735554.41308.YahooMailNeo at web84002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> When your free from your methadone addiction... I would love to hear >> about your spiritual self.? I do not nor do I know any other provider >> that insist on a "spiritual" belief system.? For me it very personal, >> I don't need to wear make up, light candles or have some type of >> ritual to satisfy my spiritual self.? I say to each their own.... But >> I do know while strung out on Methadone there was no spiritual self.? >> I though there was until I was free of it. >> I wish you luck in your journey. >> >> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: David Ray <trees.and.rain at gmail.com> >>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:04 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d?? >>> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters >>> >>> Major social systems are corrupt.? Some of them try to get better. >>> They are the valuable ones. It seems to make sense to at least try to >>> combat corruption.? Ibogaine is an immensely complex neuroactive >>> molecule that is demonstrably dangerous.? Your spiritual beliefs have >>> no relevance to me.? I came here to learn about a neuroactive >>> substance.? I tried various other hallucinogens starting about 40 >>> years ago.? They provide some insight into neural mechanisms, the way >>> the brain assembles consciousness.? I don't have the slightest >>> interest in using them now.? My only interest is in using a >>> neuroactive substance to help eliminate one more drug, methadone, from >>> my body.? I've continued to use methadone because it is one of the >>> least intrusive drugs I've encountered (In combination with other >>> drugs it's a bastard - on its own it is reasonably harmless).? Much >>> less harmful than alcohol or benzodiazepines.? But I'd like to get rid >>> of methadone as well, because greater clarity of mind may help my >>> writing and music(this is purely my situation and therefore irrelevant >>> also, but I thought I'd add a bit of background).? Then maybe when the >>> ibogaine itself is also eliminated from my body after 6 months or so >>> I'll look into vipassana meditation again, or other spiritually >>> related practices that I've explored in the past and let go or some >>> that come to me later.? However, not only are your spiritual beliefs >>> irrelevant, my spiritual beliefs are also irrelevant, except to me. >>> This emphasis on individual spirituallity denies benefit to 99% of the >>> people who may benefit from the drug, but don't share your belief >>> system. Just like catholicism, judaiism, scientology, etc.? As a >>> spiritual sacrament it may benefit some people.? As a medical >>> treatment it may benefit 100 times as many or more.? The checks and >>> balances of the medical system often screw up, but they substantially >>> succeed much of the time.? There is, in particular, the notion of >>> INFORMED consent.? Largely lacking from conventional medicine, but >>> entirely lacking from most current ibogaine treatments. I've got no >>> objection to current providers who are diligent and continue to learn, >>> but a massive increase in the benefit to come from ibogaine will not >>> come from within this system.? Only medicalisation, more people like >>> Deborah Mash, will do that. SO SLOW, but with some pushing, maybe it >>> will move faster.? Like some of the earliest posts, full of idiocy and >>> abuse (Mr. Krupa may be related to the famous jazz drummer, the way he >>> bounces around with quite stylish results amidst the chaos), I have >>> found this sequence very helpful.? Unfortunate perhaps, but idiocy and >>> abuse seems to stimulate rationality as well. People trying to >>> explain, rather than the brief and pointless that often seems to >>> prevail. >>> >>> ? -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%]? :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::? [%][) >>> ? -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120116/e2dd3b4d/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 38 >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:44:21 +0000 >> From: Sid <sidskidpiercing at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d?? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters >> Message-ID: <19A84683-F936-4EDE-A4C4-BDDA308E2BCB at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I agree. I was on methadone for many years. Although I thought I was >> fully 'conscious' it's not until you come off that you realise just >> how anesthetised you are to the world! >> >> The difference is quite huge! >> >> G >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 16 Jan 2012, at 17:39, Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> When your free from your methadone addiction... I would love to hear >>> about your spiritual self. I do not nor do I know any other >>> provider that insist on a "spiritual" belief system. For me it very >>> personal, I don't need to wear make up, light candles or have some >>> type of ritual to satisfy my spiritual self. I say to each their >>> own.... But I do know while strung out on Methadone there was no >>> spiritual self. I though there was until I was free of it. >>> I wish you luck in your journey. >>> >>> From: David Ray <trees.and.rain at gmail.com> >>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:04 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d?? >>> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters >>> >>> Major social systems are corrupt. Some of them try to get better. >>> They are the valuable ones. It seems to make sense to at least try to >>> combat corruption. Ibogaine is an immensely complex neuroactive >>> molecule that is demonstrably dangerous. Your spiritual beliefs have >>> no relevance to me. I came here to learn about a neuroactive >>> substance. I tried various other hallucinogens starting about 40 >>> years ago. They provide some insight into neural mechanisms, the way >>> the brain assembles consciousness. I don't have the slightest >>> interest in using them now. My only interest is in using a >>> neuroactive substance to help eliminate one more drug, methadone, from >>> my body. I've continued to use methadone because it is one of the >>> least intrusive drugs I've encountered (In combination with other >>> drugs it's a bastard - on its own it is reasonably harmless). Much >>> less harmful than alcohol or benzodiazepines. But I'd like to get rid >>> of methadone as well, because greater clarity of mind may help my >>> writing and music(this is purely my situation and therefore irrelevant >>> also, but I thought I'd add a bit of background). Then maybe when the >>> ibogaine itself is also eliminated from my body after 6 months or so >>> I'll look into vipassana meditation again, or other spiritually >>> related practices that I've explored in the past and let go or some >>> that come to me later. However, not only are your spiritual beliefs >>> irrelevant, my spiritual beliefs are also irrelevant, except to me. >>> This emphasis on individual spirituallity denies benefit to 99% of the >>> people who may benefit from the drug, but don't share your belief >>> system. Just like catholicism, judaiism, scientology, etc. As a >>> spiritual sacrament it may benefit some people. As a medical >>> treatment it may benefit 100 times as many or more. The checks and >>> balances of the medical system often screw up, but they substantially >>> succeed much of the time. There is, in particular, the notion of >>> INFORMED consent. Largely lacking from conventional medicine, but >>> entirely lacking from most current ibogaine treatments. I've got no >>> objection to current providers who are diligent and continue to learn, >>> but a massive increase in the benefit to come from ibogaine will not >>> come from within this system. Only medicalisation, more people like >>> Deborah Mash, will do that. SO SLOW, but with some pushing, maybe it >>> will move faster. Like some of the earliest posts, full of idiocy and >>> abuse (Mr. Krupa may be related to the famous jazz drummer, the way he >>> bounces around with quite stylish results amidst the chaos), I have >>> found this sequence very helpful. Unfortunate perhaps, but idiocy and >>> abuse seems to stimulate rationality as well. People trying to >>> explain, rather than the brief and pointless that often seems to >>> prevail. >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120116/400e1167/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 39 >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:18:37 -0500 >> From: Mikki Lynne <xxmikkixx at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? >> Message-ID: <DFC3DA05-D1CE-4C81-B329-F49D34574576 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> And lmao all the way to the bank hehee.. Oh yeah and happy MLKJDay >> Cal & everyone:) >> >> On Jan 15, 2012, at 11:32 AM, cal que <calaquendi420 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> LMAO Mikki >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Mikki Lynne <xxmikkixx at gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> An Opana in my NoDoz... It's like Willy Wonka's golden ticket >>> contest for junkies... Oh and any truck drivers out there? A minor >>> wreck, a NoDoz lawsuit... set for life. >>> >>> >>> On Jan 15, 2012, at 5:00 AM, Vector Vector >>> <vector620022002 at yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/09/health/drug-mix-up-fda/index.html >>>> >>>> Consumers warned about possible drug mix-up >>>> >>>> Novartis issues massive pill recall >>>> (CNN) -- Machinery problems at a drug manufacturing plant prompted >>>> the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to warn patients of a >>>> possible mix-up affecting various prescription pain medications and >>>> over-the-counter drugs. >>>> >>>> The FDA is advising patients who use certain prescription >>>> medications produced by Endo Pharmaceuticals to visually inspect >>>> their pills. And consumers who have select bottles of Excedrin, >>>> Bufferin, NoDoz and Gas-X, produced by Novartis, are being told to >>>> discard or return the products in a voluntary recall that started >>>> Sunday. >>>> >>>> The over-the-counter drugs involved in the recall were manufactured >>>> at a Lincoln, Nebraska, facility which also produced various >>>> prescription pain medicines for Endo Pharmaceuticals, according to >>>> the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. These pills include >>>> Percocet, Opana and Percodan. >>>> >>>> "Due to problems that occurred when these products were packaged >>>> and labeled at the site, it's possible that tablets from one >>>> product may have been retained in the packaging machinery and then >>>> may have carried over into the packaging of another product," said >>>> Dr. Edward Cox, director of the Office of Antimicrobial Products, >>>> Office of New Drugs, Center for Drug Evaluation of Research for the >>>> FDA. >>>> >>>> "This could result in an incorrect pill ending up in the bottle of >>>> another product. The likelihood of this occurring in medication >>>> dispensed in patients is estimated to be low," he added. >>>> >>>> The prescription opioids could have ended up in the bottle of >>>> another prescription drug or over-the-counter products, although >>>> "the risk of pills ending up in the wrong bottle is a rare event," >>>> according to the FDA. >>>> >>>> There have been no reports of adverse events due to this problem, >>>> Cox said. >>>> >>>> Patients who take an affected Endo Pharmaceuticals products should >>>> visually inspect all the pills in their bottles, according to the >>>> company and FDA. Endo Pharmaceuticals posted pictures of the >>>> products on their web page for tablet identifications. >>>> >>>> The products listed there: Opana ER (oxymorphone hydrochloride) >>>> extended-release tablets CII; Opana (oxymorphone hydrochloride) >>>> tablets CII; oxymorphone hydrochloride tablets CII; Percocet >>>> (oxycodone hydrochloride and acetaminophen USP) tablets CII; >>>> Percodan (oxycodone hydrochloride and aspirin, USP) tablets CII; >>>> Endocet (oxycodone hydrochloride and acetaminophen USP) tablets >>>> CII; Endodan (oxycodone hydrochloride and aspirin, USP) tablets >>>> CII; Morphine Sulfate Extended-Release Tablets CII; and Zydone >>>> (hydrocodone bitartrate/acetaminophen tablets, USP) CIII. >>>> >>>> "We are asking patients to check their medicines, to look for any >>>> tablets of a different size, shape or color from their regular >>>> medicine," Cox said. "If they find any tablets that are different, >>>> stop taking the pain medication and take the medicine to the >>>> pharmacy. We are telling patients to look carefully at all tablets >>>> in pain medication bottle." >>>> >>>> Patients who have questions should contact Endo Pharmaceuticals or >>>> their doctors, he advised. >>>> >>>> Pharmacists are also being asked to "visually inspect and verify >>>> the identity of all tablets dispensed," Cox said. >>>> >>>> "The likelihood of finding a wrong pill in an opioid pain >>>> medication is low," he said. "Patients should not be alarmed. These >>>> steps we're recommending are additional steps we are recommending >>>> to further reduce an already low likelihood of medication mix-up." >>>> >>>> The Nebraska plant has been temporarily shut down, which could >>>> cause drug shortages and disruptions in the supply chain for Endo >>>> Pharmaceuticals. >>>> >>>> "We anticipate that there may be a short-term disruption in the >>>> supply of these products to patients. This temporary supply >>>> disruption is not related to the efficacy or safety of these >>>> products," according to the company. >>>> >>>> "We are not aware of any patient having experienced a confirmed >>>> product mix-up and there have been no adverse events attributable >>>> to a product mix-up. We believe the likelihood of product mix-up >>>> reaching a patient is remote," according to the company. >>>> >>>> The over-the-counter items involved in the Novartis recall include >>>> Excedrin and NoDoz products with expiration dates of December 20, >>>> 2014, or earlier, as well as Bufferin and Gas-X products with >>>> December 20, 2013, or earlier expiration dates. >>>> >>>> Novartis had suspended operations at, and shipments from, the >>>> Lincoln, Nebraska, facility. The company said this was done "to >>>> accelerate maintenance" and make other improvements, adding that it >>>> currently "is not possible" to determine when the plant will reopen. >>>> >>>> Consumers who have the affected products can contact Novartis >>>> Consumer Relationship Center or try to obtain a refund. >>> >>>> >>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120116/f968b8f1/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 40 >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:47:00 -0800 (PST) >> From: Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? >> Message-ID: >> <1326739620.35537.YahooMailNeo at web84001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I was wondering what holiday it was..... had no idea.?? I feel so out >> of touch.? wow.. I would just die if I accidently took an opiate >> thinking i was taking something harmless... for me it wouldnt be >> worth the law suit.? I fear dope that much.? I hope one day this fear >> goes away abit..or maybe i dont.? LOL> >> >> >> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Mikki Lynne <xxmikkixx at gmail.com> >>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >>> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 1:18 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? >>> >>> >>> And lmao all the way to the bank hehee.. Oh yeah and happy MLKJDay >>> Cal & everyone:) >>> >>> On Jan 15, 2012, at 11:32 AM, cal que <calaquendi420 at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> LMAO Mikki >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Mikki Lynne <xxmikkixx at gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> An Opana in my NoDoz... It's like Willy Wonka's golden ticket >>>> contest for junkies... Oh and any truck drivers out there? A minor >>>> wreck, a NoDoz lawsuit... set for life.? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 15, 2012, at 5:00 AM, Vector Vector >>>>> <vector620022002 at yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/09/health/drug-mix-up-fda/index.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Consumers warned about possible drug mix-up >>>>>> >>>>>> Novartis issues massive pill recall >>>>>> (CNN) -- Machinery problems at a drug manufacturing plant >>>>>> prompted the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to warn patients >>>>>> of a possible mix-up affecting various prescription pain >>>>>> medications and over-the-counter drugs. >>>>>> >>>>>> The FDA is advising patients who use certain prescription >>>>>> medications produced by Endo Pharmaceuticals to visually inspect >>>>>> their pills. And consumers who have select bottles of Excedrin, >>>>>> Bufferin, NoDoz and Gas-X, produced by Novartis, are being told >>>>>> to discard or return the products in a voluntary recall that >>>>>> started Sunday. >>>>>> >>>>>> The over-the-counter drugs involved in the recall were >>>>>> manufactured at a Lincoln, Nebraska, facility which also produced >>>>>> various prescription pain medicines for Endo Pharmaceuticals, >>>>>> according to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. These pills >>>>>> include Percocet, Opana and Percodan. >>>>>> >>>>>> "Due to problems that occurred when these products were packaged >>>>>> and labeled at the site, it's possible that tablets from one >>>>>> product may have been retained in the packaging machinery and >>>>>> then may have carried over into the packaging of another >>>>>> product," said Dr. Edward Cox, director of the Office of >>>>>> Antimicrobial Products, Office of New Drugs, Center for Drug >>>>>> Evaluation of Research for the FDA. >>>>>> >>>>>> "This could result in an incorrect pill ending up in the bottle >>>>>> of another product. The likelihood of this occurring in >>>>>> medication dispensed in patients is estimated to be low," he added. >>>>>> >>>>>> The prescription opioids could have ended up in the bottle of >>>>>> another prescription drug or over-the-counter products, although >>>>>> "the risk of pills ending up in the wrong bottle is a rare >>>>>> event," according to the FDA. >>>>>> >>>>>> There have been no reports of adverse events due to this problem, >>>>>> Cox said. >>>>>> >>>>>> Patients who take an affected Endo Pharmaceuticals products >>>>>> should visually inspect all the pills in their bottles, according >>>>>> to the company and FDA. Endo Pharmaceuticals posted pictures of >>>>>> the products on their web page for tablet identifications. >>>>>> >>>>>> The products listed there: Opana ER (oxymorphone hydrochloride) >>>>>> extended-release tablets CII; Opana (oxymorphone hydrochloride) >>>>>> tablets CII; oxymorphone hydrochloride tablets CII; Percocet >>>>>> (oxycodone hydrochloride and acetaminophen USP) tablets CII; >>>>>> Percodan (oxycodone hydrochloride and aspirin, USP) tablets CII; >>>>>> Endocet (oxycodone hydrochloride and acetaminophen USP) tablets >>>>>> CII; Endodan (oxycodone hydrochloride and aspirin, USP) tablets >>>>>> CII; Morphine Sulfate Extended-Release Tablets CII; and Zydone >>>>>> (hydrocodone bitartrate/acetaminophen tablets, USP) CIII. >>>>>> >>>>>> "We are asking patients to check their medicines, to look for any >>>>>> tablets of a different size, shape or color from their regular >>>>>> medicine," Cox said. "If they find any tablets that are >>>>>> different, stop taking the pain medication and take the medicine >>>>>> to the pharmacy. We are telling patients to look carefully at all >>>>>> tablets in pain medication bottle." >>>>>> >>>>>> Patients who have questions should contact Endo Pharmaceuticals >>>>>> or their doctors, he advised. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pharmacists are also being asked to "visually inspect and verify >>>>>> the identity of all tablets dispensed," Cox said. >>>>>> >>>>>> "The likelihood of finding a wrong pill in an opioid pain >>>>>> medication is low," he said. "Patients should not be alarmed. >>>>>> These steps we're recommending are additional steps we are >>>>>> recommending to further reduce an already low likelihood of >>>>>> medication mix-up." >>>>>> >>>>>> The Nebraska plant has been temporarily shut down, which could >>>>>> cause drug shortages and disruptions in the supply chain for Endo >>>>>> Pharmaceuticals. >>>>>> >>>>>> "We anticipate that there may be a short-term disruption in the >>>>>> supply of these products to patients. This temporary supply >>>>>> disruption is not related to the efficacy or safety of these >>>>>> products," according to the company. >>>>>> >>>>>> "We are not aware of any patient having experienced a confirmed >>>>>> product mix-up and there have been no adverse events attributable >>>>>> to a product mix-up. We believe the likelihood of product mix-up >>>>>> reaching a patient is remote," according to the company. >>>>>> >>>>>> The over-the-counter items involved in the Novartis recall >>>>>> include Excedrin and NoDoz products with expiration dates of >>>>>> December 20, 2014, or earlier, as well as Bufferin and Gas-X >>>>>> products with December 20, 2013, or earlier expiration dates. >>>>>> >>>>>> Novartis had suspended operations at, and shipments from, the >>>>>> Lincoln, Nebraska, facility. The company said this was done "to >>>>>> accelerate maintenance" and make other improvements, adding that >>>>>> it currently "is not possible" to determine when the plant will >>>>>> reopen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Consumers who have the affected products can contact Novartis >>>>>> Consumer Relationship Center or try to obtain a refund. >>>>> >>>>>> ?-=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>>> (][%] ?:: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: ?[%][) >>>>>> ?-=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ?-=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>>> (][%] ?:: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: ?[%][) >>>>> ?-=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>>> ?-=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>>> (][%] ?:: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: ?[%][) >>>> ?-=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>>> >>> >>> ? -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >>> (][%]? :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::? [%][) >>> ? -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >>> >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120116/1d2996b1/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 41 >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:49:07 -0600 >> From: star ray <earthshealing at hotmail.com> >> To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens >> Message-ID: <SNT133-W115D9C05DD0B16FCB33897B6800 at phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >> if you have on demand, it is on there anytime to view, I am watching >> it now of course, i am muti tasking....... :) star >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:51:43 -0700 >> From: sivabud at gmail.com >> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Nat Geo Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens >> >> here you go jim >> >> http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/drugs-inc/episode-guide/ >> >> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi ED, >> >> Is there any chance it would be on thepiratebay or something like that. >> >> Best, >> >> - JIM >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Edward W <edwardw at mtciep.com> wrote: >> >> Anyone see tonights episode of Drugs Inc.-Hallucinogens, on the >> National Geographic channel? Dimitri Mobengo Mugianis was on the >> show. Pretty good show, although not without it's overly dramatic >> narration. I think Dimitri had a heartfelt showing. Also enjoyed the >> Ayahuasca portion as well. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ___________________ >> >> Edward >> >> edwardw at mtciep.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >> >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >> >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >> >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >> >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Victory over others brings us satisfaction, but victory over >> ourselves brings us joy." >> >> >> >> Buddy Ellis >> >> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120116/3ae58066/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 42 >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:58:40 -0600 >> From: star ray <earthshealing at hotmail.com> >> To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? >> Message-ID: <SNT133-W1654A172D7A6C8987D503AB6800 at phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >> There is nothing to fear but fear >> itself............................................. >> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:47:00 -0800 >> From: sistereboga at yahoo.com >> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? >> >> I was wondering what holiday it was..... had no idea. I feel so out >> of touch. wow.. I would just die if I accidently took an opiate >> thinking i was taking something harmless... for me it wouldnt be >> worth the law suit. I fear dope that much. I hope one day this fear >> goes away abit..or maybe i dont. LOL> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Mikki Lynne <xxmikkixx at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 1:18 PM >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] [ot] want percs instead of excedrin? >> >> >> >> >> And lmao all the way to the bank hehee.. Oh yeah and happy MLKJDay >> Cal & everyone:) >> >> On Jan 15, 2012, at 11:32 AM, cal que <calaquendi420 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> LMAO Mikki >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Mikki Lynne <xxmikkixx at gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> An Opana in my NoDoz... It's like Willy Wonka's golden ticket contest >> for junkies... Oh and any truck drivers out there? A minor wreck, a >> NoDoz lawsuit... set for life. >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 15, 2012, at 5:00 AM, Vector Vector >> <vector620022002 at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/09/health/drug-mix-up-fda/index.html >> >> >> Consumers warned about possible drug mix-up >> >> Novartis issues massive pill recall >> (CNN) -- Machinery problems at a drug manufacturing plant prompted >> the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to warn patients of a possible >> mix-up affecting various prescription pain medications and >> over-the-counter drugs. >> >> The FDA is advising patients who use certain prescription medications >> produced by Endo Pharmaceuticals to visually inspect their pills. And >> consumers who have select bottles of Excedrin, Bufferin, NoDoz and >> Gas-X, produced by Novartis, are being told to discard or return the >> products in a voluntary recall that started Sunday. >> >> The over-the-counter drugs involved in the recall were manufactured >> at a Lincoln, Nebraska, facility which also produced various >> prescription pain medicines for Endo Pharmaceuticals, according to >> the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. These pills include Percocet, >> Opana and Percodan. >> >> "Due to problems >> that occurred when these products were packaged and labeled at the >> site, it's possible that tablets from one product may have been >> retained in the packaging machinery and then may have carried over >> into the packaging of another product," said Dr. Edward Cox, director >> of the Office of Antimicrobial Products, Office of New Drugs, Center >> for Drug Evaluation of Research for the FDA. >> >> "This could result in an incorrect pill ending up in the bottle of >> another product. The likelihood of this occurring in medication >> dispensed in patients is estimated to be low," he added. >> >> The prescription opioids could have ended up in the bottle of another >> prescription drug or over-the-counter products, although "the risk of >> pills ending up in the wrong bottle is a rare event," according to >> the FDA. >> >> There have been no reports of adverse events due to this problem, Cox >> said. >> >> Patients who take an affected Endo Pharmaceuticals products should >> visually >> inspect all the pills in their bottles, according to the company and >> FDA. Endo Pharmaceuticals posted pictures of the products on their >> web page for tablet identifications. >> >> The products listed there: Opana ER (oxymorphone hydrochloride) >> extended-release tablets CII; Opana (oxymorphone hydrochloride) >> tablets CII; oxymorphone hydrochloride tablets CII; Percocet >> (oxycodone hydrochloride and acetaminophen USP) tablets CII; Percodan >> (oxycodone hydrochloride and aspirin, USP) tablets CII; Endocet >> (oxycodone hydrochloride and acetaminophen USP) tablets CII; Endodan >> (oxycodone hydrochloride and aspirin, USP) tablets CII; Morphine >> Sulfate Extended-Release Tablets CII; and Zydone (hydrocodone >> bitartrate/acetaminophen tablets, USP) CIII. >> >> "We are asking patients to check their medicines, to look for any >> tablets of a different size, shape or color from their regular >> medicine," Cox said. "If they find any tablets that are different, >> stop taking the pain >> medication and take the medicine to the pharmacy. We are telling >> patients to look carefully at all tablets in pain medication bottle." >> >> Patients who have questions should contact Endo Pharmaceuticals or >> their doctors, he advised. >> >> Pharmacists are also being asked to "visually inspect and verify the >> identity of all tablets dispensed," Cox said. >> >> "The likelihood of finding a wrong pill in an opioid pain medication >> is low," he said. "Patients should not be alarmed. These steps we're >> recommending are additional steps we are recommending to further >> reduce an already low likelihood of medication mix-up." >> >> The Nebraska plant has been temporarily shut down, which could cause >> drug shortages and disruptions in the supply chain for Endo >> Pharmaceuticals. >> >> "We anticipate that there may be a short-term disruption in the >> supply of these products to patients. This temporary supply >> disruption is not related to the efficacy or safety of >> these products," according to the company. >> >> "We are not aware of any patient having experienced a confirmed >> product mix-up and there have been no adverse events attributable to >> a product mix-up. We believe the likelihood of product mix-up >> reaching a patient is remote," according to the company. >> >> The over-the-counter items involved in the Novartis recall include >> Excedrin and NoDoz products with expiration dates of December 20, >> 2014, or earlier, as well as Bufferin and Gas-X products with >> December 20, 2013, or earlier expiration dates. >> >> Novartis had suspended operations at, and shipments from, the >> Lincoln, Nebraska, facility. The company said this was done "to >> accelerate maintenance" and make other improvements, adding that it >> currently "is not possible" to determine when the plant will reopen. >> >> Consumers who have the affected products can contact Novartis >> Consumer Relationship Center or try to obtain a >> refund. >> >> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> >> >> >> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> >> >> >> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- >> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][) >> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120116/d78b0780/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 43 >> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:31:03 +1100 >> From: David Ray <trees.and.rain at gmail.com> >> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d?? >> Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters >> Message-ID: >> <CAD_M9k0uDkgwE54KHiQX53PUm+x3BOY812xmhaRbL3NUvXTduQ at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> >> LAST POST. >> >> This is the entirety of an off-post communication with a provider called >> >> Ibogahelp <provider2 at ibogahelp.com> Who did not identify himself. >> >> As he has degenerated into irrational abuse - fun, but not helpful, I >> don't owe him the courtesy of keeping this private. >> >> (I just realised I've left off the first post I made, but you can look >> that up - this is just what followed off-post following that initial >> on-post) >> >> Some of the posts on this site are by some very damaged individuals. >> Many lack basic logic. Despite the several sensible responses I've >> got from helpful people I don't think I'll get any more value form >> this site. In some ways most of what I have learned that adds to what >> I had learned previously from sites connected to Howard Lotsof and >> Deborah Mash come form the way that long term users communicate on >> this site. The illogical responses, the rapid jumps from rationallity >> to insane rage, suggest some kind of brain damage. It is known that >> ibogaine is neurotoxic, but not at the standard flood doses. However, >> with such a complex molecule the longterm dangers are unknown. Even >> without this apparent damage, the cultlike regard for the drug and its >> supposed spiritual effects (which are a side issue to the treatment >> benefit, however profound these spiritual benefits may be), tells me >> that the attitudes to the drug expressed here are in themselves >> dangerous. "No more harmful than aspirin." Totally irresponsible. >> What is expressed is a system of religious believe, not an examination >> of evidence. >> >> I believe that with the evidence that is behind it the drug will take >> its benefits out into the wider world, but not if this site has >> anything to do with it. >> >> So I wave goodbye and unsubscribe.. Good luck to you. That is on >> offer here - the good wishes - but not the good judgement or knowledge >> that might make it happen. >> >> This should make most people feel pretty ill. It is certainly the >> effect that my overwhelming disappointment with this site has made me >> feel. >> >> THE IDIOT CONVERSATION: >> >> Ibogahelp <provider2 at ibogahelp.com> >> >> Hello David Ray, >> >> This is an off-list message. I am not trying to drag anyone through the >> dirt online. So, we will keep this private. I hate posting to the >> list. I >> would like to ask you to look further into an altercation before you >> jump >> in. Consider a couple things. >> >> 1. This was NOT an article. It is a fake article, written by Sola's >> staff >> and published on one of Sola's many new websites. In the last month, he >> has purchased at least 8 new domains. All of them with different >> names. He >> is even claiming that he legally owns the words "Ibogaine Clinic", and >> nobody can call their place an "Ibogaine Clinic". >> >> 2. It says negative things about the 'underground' all over it, and goes >> into details about how only medical staff should be there. This Beau guy >> is NOT in the underground. Underground means you work where it is >> illegal. >> Beau only works in Mexico. Sola's crew is using their attack on Beau to >> attack the underground. This is strictly business. It is all about cash. >> If Sola can make everyone look bad, then he thinks he will get all the >> money. Sola's crew is desperate for cash. >> >> 4. Sola's crew never market's to Mexicans. They are all Mexicans, >> educated >> in Mexico, working in Mexico, and they only sell treatments to >> Americans. >> Think about it. Is it because they love helping American's so much more? >> >> 5... HERE IS THE BIG one. Beau and Sola worked together for many years. >> All of Sola's business came from Beau's websites. Beau was Sola's only >> source of work for years. Beau stopped giving Sola work a few months >> back. >> Did you even know that? And you are trying to fan the flames? You look >> really bad over this, David. You got used. >> >> 6. IRONY! He says that the word 'transitions' was stolen by Beau, from >> Mash. Look at the name of the site the fake article is on. It is a >> rip off >> of Lee Albert's site. You do not know much about Ibo, so I am not >> sure if >> you know who Lee is... he runs myeboga. I'll spell it out for you... the >> site the fake article is on is called myibogaine.... get it? >> >> 7. More Irony. The fake article is put up in a specific spam marketing >> style. I work on the internet a lot. Not many people use this style. >> Guess where Sola's crew learned it? From Beau. >> >> 8. Please, do not think you are doing a service by encouraging bitching >> and gossip on Mindvox. People looking for treatments do not go to >> mindvox. >> Not one of the people I have ever worked with, or spoken to, has even >> read >> mindvox. Mindvox is exclusively for a couple of post-ibo people to >> use as >> their rehab. I look at the people posting, and very few of them are >> providers, and even less are actually working. >> >> 9. If Sola steps foot in the US and gives somebody a pill, he would be >> arrested really fast. He is not a doctor. He is a Mexican Medico. Big >> difference. Sola can barely speak English. Go to your hospital and >> ask how >> many of the doctors were educated in Mexico. They will laugh at you. >> >> I'll stop at 9, because the next ten are more than you need to know. >> What I see, is that you have jumped on mindvox saying something about >> how >> great it is that Sola is taking revenge against Beau, attacking the >> underground, and then attacking everyone who is not a doctor... and you >> are supporting that? Really? Do you have any idea what you are talking >> about? From what he posted, nobody should work with Ibo except Sola, >> and >> it should only be given to gringos with$7500. Fuck that.
>>
>> I am trying to not to be too aggressive. I'm pretty upset. Sola and
>> their
>> cash crew have never inspired anyone to be a provider, or to even
>> work in
>> Ibogaine. How many people do you know that wee treated by him? They have
>> nothing to show for all the time they have been around. I work hard to
>> tell people who are new to Ibo to talk to all providers, and Sola's crew
>> works hard to tell everyone that they will die if they go to the
>> underground.  They are really pissed off that the underground is
>> giving a
>> better service for a lot less money. The new UG is cheap, smart, and
>> sharp. You have never seen the underground because they do not post
>> on the
>> list.
>>
>> Please. I politely ask you not to contribute to bashing. Even if Beau is
>> good or bad, I do not care. There are millions of people who need Iboga.
>> They can never learn about it if people are fighting over dollars.
>>
>> If you REALLY want to help people, start your own website, and make
>> videos
>> can.
>> That is how you help. Helping is not going online to encourage gossip.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ibogahelp
>>
>> DAIVD RAY
>>
>>
>> Hi, Thanks for the information.
>>  I guess it comes from the fact that sites like mindvox are so
>> appalling. You give a largely rational criticism of the
>> warning(although there are many personal prejudices also apparent),
>> but the other criticisms were uninformed ranting.  They make none of
>> the points you make.  They appear entirely unaware of them and
>> criticise purely on the basis that it is wrong to criticise any
>> provider.  There are dangerous providers.  Where is information about
>> these providers to come from if not sites like this?  I was directed
>> to the ibogaine survivors group by X (I've deleted the name from this
>> copy of the post as I don't want to possibly damage them by
>> association with me).  There are good bits to learn there, but mainly
>> it is a support group, not an information site.  However, X lives in
>> the area and knows the providers in the area and via previous posts of
>> him/her I have come to trust what X says.  I trust his/her criticism.
>> It is a fact that there was no criticism of the warning on the basis
>> of anything other than straight conjecture.  Mexican's take money from
>> those who can pay.  I couldn't care less about that.  I only care that
>> they provide the service they take the money for.  The only way I can
>> find out if they do that is on the basis of personal recommendation.
>> Mindvox is largely appalling, but it is also the first point of call
>> for many people.  And going back to the start when people like Howard
>> Lotsof was posting on it regularly it provided good information
>> amongst all the drivel.  Despite all these years, nearly all the
>> valuable information I've found online has come from Howard Lotsof and
>> his collaborators, from Dana Beal (despite idiosyncracies), from Mr.
>> Krupa (despite massive idiosyncracies) and from Deborah Mash, and
>> various scientific research papers. I know Howard and Deborah went to
>> war over patents.  I'm indifferent to that.  They both had rights
>> based on the work they put in.  Krupa's posts are of particular value
>> because they criticise.  They say - that may or may not work. They
>> also say, as Howard does - I know this much, but any more than this -
>> I only say what I am sure about.   I also have a major concern
>> inasmuch as I personally want to use this drug for addiction
>> interruption but its uniqueness and its various modes of action mean
>> that the drug or its metabolites and derivates could have vast
>> applications, for post traumatic stress, for severe depression, for
>> chronic pain, and many others.  In many ways its use for addiction
>> treatment pushes researchers away from it.  I have one doctor I've
>> written to in australia that I knew well many years ago and is now
>> been looking for places to direct him on the web with follow up
>> information.  False advertising and drivel make up 90%.
>> I can't endlessly waste my time on this.  I would happy for you to
>> post your criticism of me on mindvox.  This is the ONLY rational
>> criticism I have read of that warning.  I stand 100% by my comments
>> regarding the other criticisms and their inbred self-protecting
>> behaviour.  Further, to complain about people providing a good quality
>> service and charging heaps for it, but to say that you don't care
>> about someone harming ill-informed junkies - that is utterly
>> despicable.  And goes to the very heart of my criticism.  Screaming
>> abuse has been part of mindvox ibo from the beginning. Go back to the
>> start and have a look.  It is also the source of some of the very best
>> information.   And it is part of the process that points out the
>> irrational morons and brings out rational and well thought out
>> responses, like what you gave me.  This is exactly what should be on
>> mindvox.  I could be like you and simply write off mindvox, or I could
>> try to improve it.  Or, which is probably nearer the truth, I could
>> just vent  a bit of my disgust at some of the providers who seem to
>> want ibogaine to remain underground, rather than becoming further
>> medicalised and thus becoming safer. They shouldn't worry - it won't
>> wipe out the underground providers (by your definition, which I don't
>> accept, or any other), there will still be those looking for spiritual
>> enlightenment that won't be acceptable to the medical streams.  In
>> mainstream medicine the numbers who could get treatment would be
>> massively increased therefore the benefit would be massively
>> increased. Contrary to what many people would say, this is occurring
>> now, albeit slowly.
>>
>> I will post this response on mindvox.  I would like you to post your
>> criticism of me as well, but that is your choice.  However, what you
>> have said would be massively useful. I would not have made the
>> kind.  My criticism is because I read nothing of this quality.  I
>> don't care about the way that it is critical of me.  I don't care if
>> it or my posts put me in the black book of some providers.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>> Ibogahelp <provider2 at ibogahelp.com>
>>
>> Thank you very much for engaging.
>>
>> One of many problems is, a place in which people can complain can be
>> manipulated rally easily. There is this crazy idea that there are
>> only 10
>> clients in the world, and everyone is fighting for them.  It is very
>> frustrating. The real problem is that there are only a handful in people
>> on the planet who administer Ibo. 80% of the Ibo community does nothing
>> but wait for tragedy for macabre entertainment. They will never
>> introduce
>> a person to Ibo. They will never administer it, or help anyone. They
>> will
>> just wait. There is an illusion that all these people posting are
>> working.
>> Count how many clinics there are, then count how many addicts there are.
>> To lose one or two providers could mean that half as many people are
>> treated world-wide. The entire underground is about 10 people, and most
>> only work a few treatments a year.  These ten people are responsible for
>> teaching everyone about Ibo. I am certain you learned about Ibo as a
>> direct result of one of these 10 people.
>> There are people in Ibo that I hate. If I did something to take them out
>> of work, then how many people would I have prevented from being treated?
>> It is like winning a poker hand. Everyone loses but me, and I can not
>> feel
>> good about that. The stakes are life and death. So, even if I think Sola
>> is a dick, I still want him to treat people. I would be happiest if
>> he did
>> it in a manner that did not negate my own efforts.
>>
>> You have noticed that the highest quality of posts has dropped off.
>> It is
>> because providers who post on mindvox could be roasted really bad. Sure,
>> it is funny. But sadly, it is preventing people from being providers.  A
>> person posted something like, "Write me for secret gossip", something
>> like
>> that. Come on, that is not helping anyone take Ibo. Maybe that prevented
>> somebody from taking Ibo. Maybe that person will die for it. Who knows?
>> Was it worth it to watch a flame war?
>>
>> It is so very complicated.  You see how Siswin is trying to make an
>> argument that the client may have had special circumstances? After
>> Ibo, we
>> can all be very loopy.   The people who make the loudest complaints
>> their treatment stop talking really quickly. Often, they are embarrassed
>> because they acted really irrationally. In this example: The client
>> called
>> Sola, who had nothing to do with the treatment, at 3am, expecting him to
>> save the day over the phone.  Something is not right.  I would not do
>> that. Would you do that?  Too much about pride, and nothing about Ibo.
>>
>> I do not have any angry clients, but I plan on working in Ibo for a long
>> time. Eventually, somebody who happens to take a powerful hallucinogenic
>> drug could partake in a lot of hate on me. I put my whole heart into
>> everything I do. To have the thousands of great events be forgotten
>> because of one event could hurt a lot of people.  Not least of which, it
>> would hurt me.
>>
>> Sola is
>> using as a demonstration of his medical expertise, how could Sola have
>> done it 'better'?  What do you think?  Maybe, in this case, the best
>> is to
>> say 'fuck it' and sit back.
>>
>> From the very beginning, I have been obsessed with the big question:
>> "Why
>> when other people will carry on?
>> I decided to switch it around: "How have people learned about ibo
>> already?"  I try to take in all the different ways people have come into
>> Ibogaine. For example, Clare Wilkins came into Ibogaine because she was
>> not satisfied with her treatment in a clinic.  Sara Glatt came into
>> Ibogaine from drug addict friends. Rocky saw a big piece missing in the
>> care, so he worked for something like 70 treatments at a Mexican clinic
>> Each of those people sucked when they started. But now, each of those
>> people has been responsible for introducing and treating thousands of
>> people.
>> On the other hand, let's take New Zealand. Not long ago, anyone could
>> Ibogaine. Anyone could learn how to administer it and teach others.
>> Now...
>> thanks to the hard work of a few, it is "legalized" and a
>> prescription-only medicine.  Not long ago, it was unregulated and
>> affordable for everyone. Now, it is illegal for everyone except MDs. See
>> the problem? "legal' for whom?
>>
>> Dr Mash was the top of the top, with a husband in a politically
>> influential position. If ever there was a time when it would be taken
>> serious, it has passed. The government tested it. People act like they
>> didn't. The US gov tested quite a few people, and put millions into it.
>> Conclusion, Ibo does not work.  And now we all know that if you just
>> hand
>> Ibo over, it will not work. It takes time, planning and effort.  In a
>> have
>> personal experience with the pain. That is valuable.
>>
>> Who has been responsible for all the happy stories in Ibo? Not the
>> doctors. It has been the people who forget about the profit, forget
>> the competition, and only focus on introducing new people, new research,
>> and not being part of the gossip.
>>
>> Let's crunch some numbers. Lets say that the government agencies for Aus
>> and the US want to do the testing we want to make it more available.
>> That
>> means you are going to be an addict for another 5-10 years, if you live
>> that long. Then maybe you can pay an experience MD tens of thousands.
>> Never would they sell it in head shops. We can not surrender our only
>> weapon to the MDs.
>>
>> What a continuous rant!  Sorry. I have a thousand facts in my head and i
>> am always trying to figure it all out. I want more people to know about
>> Ibo. i want more providers. I really want the occupation of
>> "provider" to
>> be a desirable thing. With the right providers, thousands of people can
>> get help. It is life or death for so many.
>>
>>
>>
>> DAVID RAY
>>
>> Hi, I appreciate all your comments and understand the dilemma.  But In
>> australia we've got a bigger dilemma. It is absolutely banned here.
>> In New Zealand they are beginning to do treatments with pure HCL.  I
>> hope that the underground providers keep going, but some are
>> dangerous.  I think those should be exposed.  I suspect that most ibo
>> treatments take place with groups of junkies getting hold of some ibo
>> and one of them sitting for the other.  I'm sure people have died in
>> this situation.  I told my doctor I was looking at doing ibogaine
>> treatment overseas.  She has more than 20 years experience with
>> methadone, subutex (more recent in aus) and has taken part in all the
>> testing regimes run by the state medical authorities through their
>> various agencies.  She has hundreds of junkies on her books and has
>> treated many thousands over the years.  I thought she'd say either -
>> 'that stuff's dangerous', or 'what's that?' - instead she said - 'why
>> don't you do it in queensland?' (about 1200 miles north of where I
>> live - a tropical state).  It turned out that a couple of her patients
>> had done ibo treatments there in the past.  However she knew nothing
>> about ibo.  I told her the people who did treatments in queensland
>> went back to england.  I only learned of them after they'd gone
>> unfortunately.  I mentioned that it was now illegal to import ibogaine
>> into australia (seeds are okay but don't grow in the south - they
>> would grow well in queensland).  She asked how people could have done
>> treatments if it was illegal. (dumb question)  I told her they did it
>> by importing illegally.  I tried importing ibo several years back from
>> a good canadian source.  They said they wouldn't post it to me as it
>> was illegal in australia.  I have since obtained some from a
>> recommended source in south africa who mislabelled their product as a
>> similar looking herbal substance.  Only a small amount of TA to use as
>> a test dose, and to see if it was possible without getting arrested.
>> If discovered I could  get a jail term the same as for importing a
>> gram of heroin.  The other doctor I mentioned in the last email, now
>> advisor to the health department, was my GP before I changed to my
>> current doctor.  He was pretty much forced out of the practice and
>> into the hospital system because the silly bastard insisted on
>> spending a lot of time with his patients, which harmed the cash flow
>> of the practice.  Although Australian, he had spent the previous 2
>> years working with addiction medicine in Canada.  That is the field he
>> has since dedicated himself to - hence his role as principal advisor
>> to the health department.  When he wrote back to me he said that the
>> international jury was still out on ibogaine.  But he is willing to be
>> further informed. One of the reasons I wrote to him was because I
>> checked online and there were reports about a number of coroners
>> inquests into deaths that involved opioids.  He was called as an
>> expert witness, including to inquests outside the state of Victoria,
>> which means that he is nationally regarded in his area.  In the
>> transcripts of several of these he was very critical of the behaviour
>> of the doctors involved.  Doctors, like any profession, tend to defend
>> their own, but Michael did not.  It tells me that he is still the
>> highly ethical man he used to be. (I believe that an ibo provider who
>> is not willing to do the same - criticise a poor provider - is
>> behaving unethically.  I understand your rationale, but ibo is a very
>> dangerous drug.  Sara said that it is no more dangerous than aspirin -
>> that is utter garbage, unless everything written about fatalities is
>> fiction.  The excuse given is that it always involves pre-existing
>> conditions.  Unfortunately, many, if not most junkies, have a variety
>> of health problems.  Also, many of these pre-existing conditions could
>> be dealt with in a medical environment.  Hospitals screw up regularly,
>> but they do get it right most of the time dealing with things like
>> middling heart problems.) Re Michael's ethical nature, it also tells
>> me that he would be willing to fight for ibogaine if he believes in
>> it.  I doubt that a trial for ibogaine is likely to get up, but I'd
>> say the chance of getting up a nor-ibogaine trial within a couple of
>> years would be good.  There's also 18 MC, the congener.  Deborah Mash
>> holds the nor-ibogaine patent, but I don't know what the status is of
>> 18 MC.  Anyway, providers will go on doing what they do.  But if
>> ibogaine is ever to reach the vast majority of the people who need it,
>> it will be via the same structure that currently deals with addiction
>> medicine.  I know many of the doctors involved in this area over
>> several decades.  They are a largely cynical lot, but they believe in
>> what they are doing and do their best.  They are the best chance for
>> the majority.  Both will continue, but the tiny numbers dealt with by
>> underground providers, by individuals taking great risks on their own,
>> and by the few clinics around the world with varying legal status, are
>> simply not enough.  These are never going to deal with any more than a
>> tiny fraction of those in need.  And the numbers in other situations
>> who might benefit from medicalisation of ibogaine would be in the
>> millions.  The underground/amateur, whatever you want to call them,
>> are never going to get close.  Growing medicalisation may start to
>> deal with these vast numbers.  And whatever the legal status, I
>> believe that full information is necessary, including criticism of the
>> screw-ups.  I doubt there has ever been a deliberate death in an
>> ibogaine treatment, but I bet there have been a lot that would have
>> been preventable in a medically supervised environment.  I should add
>> that in Australia at least, there are a number of addiction treatments
>> available that save lives every day. Tens of thousands of junkies in
>> australia are well served by available treatments, just as I have
>> been.  We obviously have a very different attitude towards addiction
>> treatments.  In australia "harm minimisation" saves thousands of
>> lives.  At the moment, ibogaine saves none.  I think that can be
>> improved so that these many thousands can be given another option.  It
>> is not the only one.  It is not the best for everyone, but it should
>> be available because it would be a good option for some.
>>
>>
>> Ibogahelp <provider2 at ibogahelp.com>
>>
>>>>> But In
>> australia we've got a bigger dilemma. It is absolutely banned here.
>>
>> ---I thought it was illegal to import. That was the only law. If that is
>> your obsticle, how did you ever get into Heroin? Heroin people would
>> have
>> eaten you live. Doesn't matter. The law has nothing to do with people
>> getting addicted. It has nothing to do with getting people clean. If you
>> are a good person when you provide, you will have no trouble. If you
>> talk
>> shit, then you are going to get done.  If you listen to fat bitches like
>> Bava, then you are just stupid. I have bought heroin in Brunswick in
>> Brisbane, Springvale in Melbourne, Nimbin, and I bought plenty from
>> Cabramatta. I have never once bought drugs from King's cross. I know
>> things about Aus that you could never know. I speak Vietnamese. I have
>> been places that white folks do not know exist.  Your country is free.
>> Anyone can do anything they want. There is no drug war there.  Relax.
>>
>> >>>In New Zealand they are beginning to do treatments with pure HCL.
>>
>> ---I want to scream, Bullshit.  When I gave you a few examples as to why
>> Sola was a dick, it was not because I know Solas. It is because Ibo
>> is my
>> work, my passion, my deal. I know almost everything. This NZ set up is
>> bullshit. MAPS has received tens of thousands of dollars in
>> donations, and
>> have never treated anyone. It is a fucking fraud. That is fact.  Look it
>> up. What MAPS research? All I see is 100 benefit dinners with a bunch of
>> fuckers asking for more money for these 'trials'? Do not fall for it.
>> I could give you 100 terribly sickening things Howard Lotsof did. Do not
>> talk nice about the fucker. He was a piece of shit. He prevented many
>> people from being treated, and sued people who tried to get help.
>> Look it
>> up. He charged \$35,000 per treatment. Look it up. This is all so much
>> more
>> complicated than you can imagine. After you get treated, then start
>> working, out of nowhere responsible and intelligent people will call you
>> to share information. We love sharing info. But, we can not share it
>> with
>> everyone. It is very complicated. Many folks are not smart enough.
>> The reason people do not know more about Ibo, is because of the
>> people you
>> are listening to. These 'authorities' are not allowed anywhere near a
>> treatment. They are protecting their image. They are all failures that
>> have helped nobody.
>>
>> >>>I hope that the underground providers keep going, but some are
>> >>>dangerous.
>>
>> ---Who? What is dangerous? What is the difference between good and bad?
>> Does it take into account the person being treated could be a nutter?
>>
>> >>>I think those should be exposed.
>>
>> ---I'm too 'abusive' to provide for you. I agree. I would not be a good
>> provider for you. I turn away about 80% of the people who write me. I do
>> not turn them away because I want them to die of an OD next week. I
>> am not
>> the right person to help them. We need all providers, "good" and
>> be an option. Think about it. A lot of people can not handle me.  A
>> large
>> percentage of the people writing me are not looking for help, they are
>> trying to fuck. If an addict lady writes me, and she needs to get clean,
>> but maybe 30% of her motivation is that I will be her new
>> boyfriend... see
>> a problem? I need to tell the lady to fuck off. I do not want her to
>> die.
>> What do I do? Where can I send her, if there are no other providers?
>> This
>> is not about 'right' and 'wrong'. It is about making it available to as
>> many people as we can. If it is through the MDs, then nobody will
>> ever be
>> clean. It must be through us. It is a war. We nut up. When we have to
>> pay,
>> then we will pay.
>> That is how providers are made. You wake up and realize that it is
>> either
>> you who helps, or nobody will.  These forum people are not working for
>> Ibo. They are making noise on a forum, that's it. There is a gigantic
>> difference.
>>
>> >>>I suspect that most ibo treatments take place with groups of junkies
>> getting hold of some ibo and one of them sitting for the other.
>>
>> ---No. That is not true. Where did you hear that? Most treatments are
>> actually done in hotel rooms in the US by people who have gone
>> through the
>> process themselves, then trained with another provider. You never hear
>> about any of those. Nobody who hears will say, "Good job", they will
>> only
>> talk shit. What you see about Ibo on forums is the tip of an iceberg.
>> There is a lot of really exciting shit that Mindvox people are not
>> allowed
>> to be a part of.  If Mindvox people even knew 5% of the cool stuff going
>> on, they would do everything they can to fuck it up. Fuckers like your
>> disgusting fat tittied friend Bava do nothing but wait all day and night
>> for disgruntled clients. I've met that piece of shit. The only thing
>> amusing is how he controls people like you like puppets, and he is
>> fucking
>> retarded. He LOVES suckers.  Think about it... if you were a lying
>> fucker,
>> and you only wanted to start shit, how would you do it? You need
>> disgruntled clients. How do you find them? You create something with a
>> really stupid and fucked up name like "Ibo Survivors". Don't be a chump.
>> He is using you. Everything I write goes back to him. I know this shit
>> very well. It's my profession.
>>
>> We in the underground have rules. Once you move to a level of
>> responsibility, we hook you up. Until then, we act like vox people do
>> not
>> exist. If you go on stats alone, Me myself and I have introduced 100s of
>> times as many people to Ibo than Vox.  There is an outer image, then
>> there
>> is reality. The reality does not involved screaming bitches like Bava.
>> You are falling into his deal, because you are a sucker.
>>
>> >>>I'm sure people have died in this situation.
>>
>> ---And this is the problem. Most of the deaths have occurred with
>> doctors.
>> Did you know that?  Are you really "sure" people have died in this
>> situation? I can show you all kinds of death that do not fit into this.
>> Finding deaths from this situation is very rare.
>>
>> >>> 'why don't you do it in queensland?' (about 1200 miles north of
>> where
>> I live - a tropical state).
>>
>> ---Wow, Queensland, huh? never heard of it. :) I lived in Red Hill,
>> Milton, and also lived in Pattington for a bit.  If you could think
>> of the
>> most impossibly perfect qualifications a person could have to represent
>> Ibo for the world, I have it.  I feel right at home hanging out in
>> Cabramatta.
>>
>> >>>It turned out that a couple of her patients had done ibo treatments
>> there in the past.  However she knew nothing about ibo.  I told her
>> the people who did treatments in queensland went back to england.
>>
>> ---Nope. You are talking about different people. You are talking about
>> Paul Featherstone from the UK, and she is talking about Jasen Happy from
>> Brisbane.
>>
>> >>> I mentioned that it was now illegal to import ibogaine
>> into australia (seeds are okay but don't grow in the south - they
>> would grow well in queensland).
>>
>> ---7 years to mature. Ibogaine is practically legal where you are. Take
>> advantage of it. You have a fraction of the very real gangster shit
>> people
>> in the US have to deal with. I would trade with you.
>>
>> >>>I have since obtained some from a
>> recommended source in south africa who mislabelled their product as a
>> similar looking herbal substance.  Only a small amount of TA to use as
>> a test dose, and to see if it was possible without getting arrested.
>>
>> ---Cops never know what it is. They test for heroin, coke, speed, and
>> then
>> destroy it. They send you a letter saying, "couldn't tell what is was,
>> destroyed it."  Having a white power is not illegal until you give it a
>> name.
>>
>> >>>If discovered I could  get a jail term the same as for importing a
>> gram of heroin.
>>
>> --Only hypothetically. I doubt that would be the case. It has never
>> happened. Hopefully, when you get to the point when the jury or judge
>> will
>> hear you, then is when you go on an Ibogahelp-like rant about Iboga
>> saving
>> lives, and muthafucking right it is a CURE, and you stand by that word
>> like it was god.  If you have your shit together, you will be
>> responsible
>> for saving thousands of people as a direct result of your rant in court.
>> You may have to do 6 months (less) in the cage but you save
>> thousands. If
>> you will not put your own ass up, then you should not be putting other's
>> lives at risk.
>>
>> >>>Although Australian, he had spent the previous 2
>>
>> ---That was a waste of time. Fucking holiday.  He should have gone to
>> Cabramatta. Canada is a stupid place tel tell people you studied
>>
>> >>>That is the field he has since dedicated himself to - hence his
>> role as
>> to the health department.
>>
>> ---Bullshit, dude.
>>
>> >>>When he wrote back to me he said that the international jury was
>> still
>> out on ibogaine.
>>
>> ---Dude, you are a sucker. A mark. You are the person people go to to
>> rip
>> off. You fall for shit if it sounds pretty. This is all bullshit.
>> Doctors
>> say these things to shut up suckers.  He doesn't give a fuck about
>> addicts, or he would look into Ibo. International jury my ass. I would
>> have knocked him out for that.
>>
>> >>>But he is willing to be further informed.
>>
>> ---By the international jury? Yea. sure. I'll call them. Holy shit, they
>> said it was cool. What does he say now? Nothing, just like I thought.
>>
>> >>> Doctors, like any profession, tend to defend
>> their own, but Michael did not.  It tells me that he is still the
>> highly ethical man he used to be. (I believe that an ibo provider who
>> is not willing to do the same - criticise a poor provider - is
>> behaving unethically.
>>
>> ---How about if a person is NOT a provider. They have never been, and
>> they
>> do not know anything about Ibo. Should they be able to set up places for
>> people to destroy providers who actually help people? Should people
>> who do
>> not provide be able to criticize work they know nothing about?
>>
>> >>>I understand your rationale, but ibo is a very
>> dangerous drug.  Sara said that it is no more dangerous than aspirin -
>> that is utter garbage, unless everything written about fatalities is
>> fiction.
>>
>> ---Take 20 Aspirin, you'll never wake up. You will die a terrible
>> death in
>> which your blood will thin out and you die of internal bleeding. An ibo
>> flood is the equivalent of a LOT of rootbark. It is far more alkaloids
>> than anyone ever took in a tribal setting. Not many people know that. A
>> proper flood is what most people would assume would be a toxic dose of
>> Ibo. As long as there are no drugs in their system, heart issues, or
>> liver
>> problems... she is correct. Ibo is safer than Aspirin.
>>
>> >>> The excuse given is that it always involves pre-existing
>> conditions.  Unfortunately, many, if not most junkies, have a variety
>> of health problems.  Also, many of these pre-existing conditions could
>> be dealt with in a medical environment.
>>
>> ---I am a better provider than any of the doctors. I stand by that. When
>> somebody like sola fills a person with benzos to sedate them, and kicks
>> them out to relapse, they should just shut the fuck up. There is no
>> debate. Doctors should be keep out of this. My clients win. None of
>> there
>> clients win. End of that debate. If there is an emergency, they call an
>> ambulance. No shit. If Sola has a problem, he calls the emergency room.
>> Big deal. That is what I would do.  Except with me, you go to real
>> doctors
>>
>> >>>Re Michael's ethical nature, it also tells
>> me that he would be willing to fight for ibogaine if he believes in
>> it.
>>
>> ---Until then, your junky ass should sit in a room and use until you
>> die.
>> Who gives a fuck what this bitch thinks? He talks shit about Ibo not
>> working. Fuck him. He doesn't know shit. The first thing you need to
>> do is
>> look at all these doctors and understand a few years ago they would have
>> given you leeches for your problems. Nothing has changed. They do not
>> know
>> anything about addiction, I don't give a damn how much suboxone they
>> hand
>> out.  i have cured more people in a year with ibo, than your Sub doc has
>>
>>
>> >>>I doubt that a trial for ibogaine is likely to get up, but I'd
>> say the chance of getting up a nor-ibogaine trial within a couple of
>> years would be good.  There's also 18 MC, the congener.
>>
>> ---Those drugs are a scam. It is very complicated. Look at where 18mc
>> comes from. Read all the history. Look where the Nor metabolite comes
>> from. When you know all about it, you will say, "Motherfuckers! Fucking
>> lying scumbags!"
>>
>> >>>The underground/amateur, whatever you want to call them,
>> are never going to get close.
>>
>> ---To date, the UG is responsible for everyone. Even you. Every single
>> advance to Ibo has been from the UG. Look into it. I'm not talking
>> bitch who busted out a paper about monkeys taking Ibo. I'm talking about
>> people being cured of addiction.  If there were only MDs, there would be
>> no Ibo. Your statement about doctors being involved is wrong. Intuition
>> says doctors are the key. Reality is that they have never helped anyone.
>>
>> >>>Growing medicalisation may start to deal with these vast numbers.
>> And
>> whatever the legal status, I believe that full information is
>> necessary, including criticism of the
>> screw-ups.
>>
>> ---That is the same attitude everyone had from 1962 until 2000. When the
>> new UG took over, the number of people treated increased went from a
>> total
>> of only 40-50 people in the whole world, to many thousands. The
>> information online exploded. It is all because of addicts. Doctors have
>> done nothing.
>>
>> >>>I doubt there has ever been a deliberate death in an
>> ibogaine treatment, but I bet there have been a lot that would have
>> been preventable in a medically supervised environment.
>>
>> ---A lot of deliberate deaths, actually. This is all so complicated.
>> I can
>> not expect you to understand. How many people say, "I was ready to
>> die if
>> Ibo did not work."?  Clients lie! They lie because they are using the
>> provider to commit suicide! Fuck yea! It happens a lot. After the
>> treatment clients will say, "By the way, I smoked a bunch of crack
>> before
>> we started. I didn't want to live, so I was not scared. Sorry bout
>> that."
>>
>> >>>I should add that in Australia at least, there are a number of
>> available that save lives every day. Tens of thousands of junkies in
>> australia are well served by available treatments, just as I have
>> been.
>>
>> ---I spent enough time in Aus to know that is not true. Nobody is Aus is
>> being helped, except the ones who go to Mr Happy. After you take Ibo,
>> you
>> will not see these other things as 'treatments' any more than you would
>> see handcuffs as a treatment.
>>
>> >>>We obviously have a very different attitude towards addiction
>> treatments.  In australia "harm minimisation" saves thousands of
>> lives.  At the moment, ibogaine saves none.
>>
>> ---You are taking away from people who are working really hard in Aus. A
>> lot of people have taken Ibo there. The real Ibo workers do not go on
>> vox.
>> You are totally in the dark. The only people you are listening to are
>> the
>> loudest, not the best informed.
>>
>> You and I see different, but it is not because you are thinking
>> wrong. You
>> are saying some of the exact same things I have said. Then over time, as
>> you talk with more and more and more people who need help, it all
>> changes
>> completely.  Ibogaine is amazing for so many reasons. One of the
>> strangest
>> things, is that health care pros are not as qualified to administer
>> it as
>> former addicts. Amazing, counter-intuitive... just very bizarre.
>>
>>  DAVID RAY
>> Sorry, I have very poor internet connection that jumps without notice.
>>  You have misread great amounts of what I have said.  You have
>> degenerated into mindless rage.  Why do all providers seem to do that.
>>  Your "knowledge" is worthless to me.  I will go back and post all
>> your comments on mindvox so that anyone who cares can see that you are
>> so irrational that you should be avoided at all costs. Be aware - from
>> your first comment, that seemed fairly rational but contained too many
>> errors of simple comprehension and logic to put in faith in you, I
>> have known that you are someone who's point of view makes you
>> worthless to me, but as you seemed sane enough, if somewhat mentally
>> damaged, I was willing to be polite.  Now you're just a raving
>> fuckwit.  Ignorant as sin.  Stupid as a cockroach.  The apparent brain
>> damage of long term providers does not speak well of the long term
>> benefits of this enormously dangerous drug.
>>
>>
>> On 17/01/2012, Sid <sidskidpiercing at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I agree. I was on methadone for many years. Although I thought I was
>>> fully
>>> 'conscious' it's not until you come off that you realise just how
>>> anesthetised you are to the world!
>>>
>>> The difference is quite huge!
>>>
>>> G
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 16 Jan 2012, at 17:39, Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> your spiritual self.  I do not nor do I know any other provider that
>>>> insist on a "spiritual" belief system.  For me it very personal, I
>>>> don't
>>>> need to wear make up, light candles or have some type of ritual to
>>>> satisfy
>>>> my spiritual self.  I say to each their own.... But I do know while
>>>> strung
>>>> out on Methadone there was no spiritual self.  I though there was
>>>> until I
>>>> was free of it.
>>>> I wish you luck in your journey.
>>>>
>>>> From: David Ray <trees.and.rain at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:04 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical ???Undergroun d??
>>>> Ibogaine
>>>> Detox Treatment Ce nters
>>>>
>>>> Major social systems are corrupt.  Some of them try to get better.
>>>> They are the valuable ones. It seems to make sense to at least try to
>>>> combat corruption.  Ibogaine is an immensely complex neuroactive
>>>> molecule that is demonstrably dangerous.  Your spiritual beliefs have
>>>> no relevance to me.  I came here to learn about a neuroactive
>>>> substance.  I tried various other hallucinogens starting about 40
>>>> years ago.  They provide some insight into neural mechanisms, the way
>>>> the brain assembles consciousness.  I don't have the slightest
>>>> interest in using them now.  My only interest is in using a
>>>> neuroactive substance to help eliminate one more drug, methadone, from
>>>> my body.  I've continued to use methadone because it is one of the
>>>> least intrusive drugs I've encountered (In combination with other
>>>> drugs it's a bastard - on its own it is reasonably harmless).  Much
>>>> less harmful than alcohol or benzodiazepines.  But I'd like to get rid
>>>> of methadone as well, because greater clarity of mind may help my
>>>> writing and music(this is purely my situation and therefore irrelevant
>>>> also, but I thought I'd add a bit of background).  Then maybe when the
>>>> ibogaine itself is also eliminated from my body after 6 months or so
>>>> I'll look into vipassana meditation again, or other spiritually
>>>> related practices that I've explored in the past and let go or some
>>>> that come to me later.  However, not only are your spiritual beliefs
>>>> irrelevant, my spiritual beliefs are also irrelevant, except to me.
>>>> This emphasis on individual spirituallity denies benefit to 99% of the
>>>> people who may benefit from the drug, but don't share your belief
>>>> system. Just like catholicism, judaiism, scientology, etc.  As a
>>>> spiritual sacrament it may benefit some people.  As a medical
>>>> treatment it may benefit 100 times as many or more.  The checks and
>>>> balances of the medical system often screw up, but they substantially
>>>> succeed much of the time.  There is, in particular, the notion of
>>>> INFORMED consent.  Largely lacking from conventional medicine, but
>>>> entirely lacking from most current ibogaine treatments. I've got no
>>>> objection to current providers who are diligent and continue to learn,
>>>> but a massive increase in the benefit to come from ibogaine will not
>>>> come from within this system.  Only medicalisation, more people like
>>>> Deborah Mash, will do that. SO SLOW, but with some pushing, maybe it
>>>> will move faster.  Like some of the earliest posts, full of idiocy and
>>>> abuse (Mr. Krupa may be related to the famous jazz drummer, the way he
>>>> bounces around with quite stylish results amidst the chaos), I have
>>>> found this sequence very helpful.  Unfortunate perhaps, but idiocy and
>>>> abuse seems to stimulate rationality as well. People trying to
>>>> explain, rather than the brief and pointless that often seems to
>>>> prevail.
>>>>
>>>>   -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>>>>   -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>>>>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>  -=[) :::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe ::::: (]=-
>>
>>
>> End of Ibogaine Digest, Vol 49, Issue 5
>> ***************************************
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 10.0.1416 / Virus Database: 2109/4148 - Release Date: 01/17/12
>>
>
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-